What if Conan leaves d20 for anotehr system?

[Clovenhoof]

I'd much rather design my own, but GMs don't seem to like that much even when the feats I design are clearly inferior to stuff out of the main books. I chalk that up to the tyranny of rules.

I guess that comes from experiences many of us have made in their highschool days, of juvenile powergamers designing their own special feats that will make them uber. So most GMs have acquired a sort of knee-jerk reaction to self-made feats. When a feat obviously _looks_ inferior, the alarm bell rings again because probably the designing player has hidden some very special advantage in these lines.

Of course mature players don't do that, but since many gamers have made such experiences in their youth, it's still once bitten, twice shy when it comes to self-written content.

 

[rabindranath72]

But back to my crap vs. gold question... why do you have that cornered rat look? Let me ask it another way - is the crunch crap b/c Mongoose wrote it or because it's an OGL game?

Tertium non datur? For me, neither of the twos qualifies (e.g., Mongoose could produce something which is rules-light AND OGL. Castles & Crusades, for example)
Oh, I loved your rant :lol:

 

[Azgulor]

But back to my crap vs. gold question... why do you have that cornered rat look? Let me ask it another way - is the crunch crap b/c Mongoose wrote it or because it's an OGL game?

Tertium non datur? For me, neither of the twos qualifies (e.g., Mongoose could produce something which is rules-light AND OGL. Castles & Crusades, for example)
Oh, I loved your rant :lol:

Thank you, I'll be here all week!

:lol: While I think you may have a viable third option, I don't recall you throwing the word "crap" around, so I think we can both rest easy. At 17 pages, I've got to give you the benefit of the doubt.

After all, I'll probably need that time to make sure the NPC I worked up has a viable feat chain... :twisted:

Yes, I'm a recreational RPGer but Smart-Assitude is wired into my DNA.

 

[Hervé]

Azgulor, your post just prove nothing and most your arguments fall short. The vast majority of people posting in this thread have also 20 years or more of gaming experience and some have been working in the gaming industry for longer than that. So, no, your "experiences are not a statistical anomaly".

There's no problem for me about liking D20 or not. We're on a discussion forum whose main purpose is to allow people to exchange different points of view. I don't have to agree with you as you don't have to agree with me, as long it's done with mutual respect. Unfortunately, I think your post lack the politeness and respect necessary for the exchange of ideas on a written forum.

Your rant tend to show you're considering yourself somewhat superior the "average D20 hater" and the "gaming experience" you boast about seem like you've being formated a bit too much by playing D&D too long. Your example just shows you'd be better off playing a video game than a paper RPG.

Now, you can insult me again, but try to to it with objectivity this time.

 

[rabindranath72]

But back to my crap vs. gold question... why do you have that cornered rat look? Let me ask it another way - is the crunch crap b/c Mongoose wrote it or because it's an OGL game?

Tertium non datur? For me, neither of the twos qualifies (e.g., Mongoose could produce something which is rules-light AND OGL. Castles & Crusades, for example)
Oh, I loved your rant :lol:

Thank you, I'll be here all week!

:lol: While I think you may have a viable third option, I don't recall you throwing the word "crap" around, so I think we can both rest easy. At 17 pages, I've got to give you the benefit of the doubt.

After all, I'll probably need that time to make sure the NPC I worked up has a viable feat chain... :twisted:

Yes, I'm a recreational RPGer but Smart-Assitude is wired into my DNA.

Never used the word "crap", never will use it. I like some implementations of d20, as I said before; namely, those based on the D&D 3.0 rule set (which I like). What I do not like is the kinds of D&D 3.5, to which Conan is close, unfortunately. But if someone else likes them, more power to them!

 

[Ranzadule]

I don't care for D&D minis, but I don't go to their site to bitch about their games.

 

[Azgulor]

Azgulor, your post just prove nothing and most your arguments fall short. The vast majority of people posting in this thread have also 20 years or more of gaming experience and some have been working in the gaming industry for longer than that. So, no, your "experiences are not a statistical anomaly".

There's no problem for me about liking D20 or not. We're on a discussion forum whose main purpose is to allow people to exchange different points of view. I don't have to agree with you as you don't have to agree with me, as long it's done with mutual respect. Unfortunately, I think your post lack the politeness and respect necessary for the exchange of ideas on a written forum.

Your rant tend to show you're considering yourself somewhat superior the "average D20 hater" and the "gaming experience" you boast about seem like you've being formated a bit too much by playing D&D too long. Your example just shows you'd be better off playing a video game than a paper RPG.

Now, you can insult me again, but try to to it with objectivity this time.

You go out of town on business for a few days and you find someone left you a present. Ah, Herve...

Point #1: You stating my arguments fall short is no more fact and no less opinion than my post - which I clearly identified as my personal experience. Rant was the word I chose. While you have the certainty of your convictions, I have mine. Score = 0/0

Point #2: I posted my 2 cents and then bowed out for about 14 pages. You on the other hand kept your shots going through most of those 14 pages before returning, so yeah, I guess I do consider myself superior to a d20 hater. I understand some people like rules-light games. I like the Conan game and state my bias up front. I don't make post after post of presenting my personal taste as objective fact.

Point #3: (While still stating that it's my opinion...) I find much of the criticisms levied to be heavily biased and weak arguments if the system was given a fair shot. I wasn't a Conan OGL fanboy on day one. I became one after playing the system. Nothing in your "rebuttal" disproves anything I said.

Point #4: I didn't name anyone. I stated an opinion in a civil manner and then poked some fun at the other side of the argument. Again, I also put my position on full display by identifying it as a "rant", and a tongue-in-cheek one at that. If you felt insulted, I can't help it if you felt my post hit too close to the mark and the mark was you. [If you don't feel it hit close to the mark, I'm afraid I don't understand why you feel insulted.]

Point #5: As for objectivity, I'd like to make an introduction. Herve, meet Mr. Mirror. Mr. Mirror, meet Herve.

Now points 1-5 above, in the interest of full disclosure and objectivity, are my opinions. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you will disagree with all of them.

I will agree that we're on a discussion forum. I also agree that the free exchange of ideas is to be encouraged. However, I think the main purpose of forum is to have a free exchange of ideas about the Conan RPG. I'll also concede that such an exchange includes criticism of said game if it doesn't float your boat.

However...

By way of example, if I'm invited to a party at someone's house, I don't show up and go on and on about how the food sucks, the decor is tacky, and how I can't understand how some of the guests merited an invitation. If I don't have a good time, I can find a more tactful way to say so than being insulting to the host. I guess I consider it lacking in politeness and respect, but then I'm kind of crazy that way...

And that is the reason I posed the "crap vs. gold" question. It's one thing to say, "it doesn't work for me and here's why". That's constructive discussion. When the Conan detractors insult the publisher, the authors, and the fans of the game on the very message board offered by the publisher to support the game...well let's just say you don't get to claim the moral high ground with me. I think it's bad form to come here, present personal preference as objective fact in an insulting manner and then turn around and say "If only Mongoose did it MY, I mean THIS way it'd be the greatest Conan gave EVAAARRR."

I guess that Barbarian Code of Honor really took root 'cause that's just my boorish, impolite, anti-discussion, close-minded, rabble-rousing opinion and I don't care if it offends the opposing viewpoint's civilized sensibilities. If anyone is reading this and can't understand what I just said and why I just said it, I ain't losing any sleep over it.

Neither should you.

 

[Sutek]

The only thing I can say in Herve's defense is (a) we're sort of at a party where the host doesn't care if we insult the rellish tray or not. However, it's more like a party where nearly half the people think the host should have provided all the booze, while the othere half brought thier own (the latter is you and me, Az - lol). Essentially, politeness and respect are best left to our interaction (such that it is) between one another here, but I feel no obligation to be nice to the system or even Mongoose, necessarily.

Now, with that in mind, I've said all along that most of this entire thread is mindless D20 hatin, and largely probably comes from a bunch of novice players who simply didn't want to take the time to read the rules and instead have jumped on the bandwagon with the first group.

Dude, I agree with you 100% (and I understood your whole post, too - lol). I simply feel no need to be nice about it anymore after 17+ pages of lame argument on the part of the D20 hate crowd. This is one of the cleanest, easiest ballanced systems to hit the RPG scene, plus it's friggin Conan.

Grat rant, and dead on, man. RPG Vets for D20 Conan Powers....ACTIVATE!!!

:lol:

 

[Hervé]

From what I remember of this long thread (as I didn’t take the time to read back the 17 pages !), the critics of the so called “D20 haters” has been so far against the system itself than against the players that are using it.
On the other hand I feel the arguments of “D20 lovers” look like more like ultimatums to Mongoose (“If you change anything, I quit!”), direct attacks against players (poor Gming, novice players and the like) or out of range statements like “D20 is simple, look at Rolemaster!” or “Look, I can make a NPC in two minutes”…

This is getting silly. I have great respect for Mongoose and their products are most of my posts over the last years will prove it. On the other way, I feel I got the right, as a regular customer, to express my likes and dislikes about the products. I even guess it’s the main purpose of this forum for Mongoose: get a direct feedback from their customers.
Furthermore, the D20 system is by no way Mongoose’s creation, so I guess I won’t hurt anybody’s creativity by criticizing it.

The D20 system has a tactical approach of roleplaying that doesn’t fit all players, some preferring more free form systems.

And there’s no problem about this !!

We could simply exchange point of views without being disrespectful to anyone stating why we do or don’t like the system.

For one, the D20 has many advantages, as it is a very comprehensive system, but there are some things in it I profoundly dislike, thus not making it my personal choice as a game engine for Conan roleplaying.

Firstly, I’m not a huge fan of Class/Level systems. I find them being too narrow for my vision of the game, leading to ultra specialized stereotypical characters. I’m not too much into the “tactical wargaming approach” of RPGs preferring a more narrative way of gaming.

Some aspects of the game system really annoy me, complicating things that should have been kept simple. The skill ranks are particularly painful (the huge number of situational modifiers not helping), but worst of all the Feats/Special abilities add endless special rules, prerequisites and so on. While it may be great for giving players many options, the (un)balance of power of the Feats forces to optimisation rather than to “funny” characterization. The Feats all have the same price but are greatly unbalanced. In most games where there are Advantages/Edges/Feats or whatever, they generally have a different price depending on their impact in he game.

Worst of it, it makes NPC creation a pain. I guess the main reason is D&D was designed as a Player vs. Monster game, the critters using ready to use templates.

Unfortunately, the main foes in Conan are humans, and they follow the same creation rules as characters. Of course you can make foes from scratch as the example shown somewhere in this thread… While it might be nice for a low level fighter type goon, it shows far more problems for a high level multiclassed NPC. What’s the point in having a very precise and detailed system for characters if the NPCs are not using the same rules, using more or less semi random numbers?

To make your high level NPC, you have to go through each level, calculating skill ranks, counting feats, checking prerequisites and stat increases that modify skills points and so on.
If your NPC is a sorceror you also have to cope with the magic rules… That’s very much time consuming for a person like me. I rather spend my free time designing adventures than crunching numbers.

I also have a problem with the combat/hit points system that seem much unrealistic to me: In d20, you hit often and characters can generally withstand great amount of damage. Yes, I know about hit points being more than wounds, being combat experience and fatigue and so on… I’ve been hearing this since the early days of D&D. It simply doesn’t feat my vision of combat in RPGs. I prefer engines like the BRP where combat is a succession of attacks, parries and dodge, where one good landed blow can kill a man outright. In these games, there are no “OK I have 45 hp remaining, I can take it!”. Conan is a gritty world where death strikes swiftly. I RQ you don’t boast too much before the guard pointing a crossbow at you. In D20, you just sneer…

I’ve been running Conan games using different systems and ran my last campaign over the last two years with the D20 system, so I can say I really tried. With all this Conan galore from Mongoose, I thought my life would be easier using D20 when actually it has just been the contrary.

Again, this is not a direct critic for those who enjoy the system. I’m not trying to prove anyone how right I am or whatever. I’m just giving my point of view on a topic about seeing Conan with another system in a future world of endless possibilities…

Love in a peaceful world...

 

[Sutek]

The D20 system has a tactical approach of roleplaying that doesn’t fit all players, some preferring more free form systems.

Well there's a key problem with your argument: Role playing has nothing to do with the game system. Role playing takes place without the system getting involved, although the system can be utilized to manuever the role playing experience. There jsut seems to be an opinion that the two are inextribly linked, and they are, in fact, mutually exclusive. I've played D20 games where there was a lot of combat and skill checks, but I've also played entire nights without rolling a single die.

Firstly, I’m not a huge fan of Class/Level systems. I find them being too narrow for my vision of the game, leading to ultra specialized stereotypical characters. I’m not too much into the “tactical wargaming approach” of RPGs preferring a more narrative way of gaming.

A class/lvl system is intended to create stereotypes within the world it is trying to emulate. Fight, Magic User, Thief and Cleric set the tone for early D&D and let you know the "reality" of the world you were about to inhabit. Conan is no different, and if fact begs for stereotypes to be set up because that's the way REH wrote the stories. The genra and material relates directly to a class/level system, even though it can be uneqivalent at low levels. Technically, Conan is pretty high level when we, as readers, are introduced to him, so the level progression vs. talent gain bell curve may be a bit generous in D20, but it works, and suits the stories. That's paramount with a property like Conan, and Mongoose achieves this nicely.

Some aspects of the game system really annoy me, complicating things that should have been kept simple. The skill ranks are particularly painful (the huge number of situational modifiers not helping), but worst of all the Feats/Special abilities add endless special rules, prerequisites and so on. While it may be great for giving players many options, the (un)balance of power of the Feats forces to optimisation rather than to “funny” characterization. The Feats all have the same price but are greatly unbalanced. In most games where there are Advantages/Edges/Feats or whatever, they generally have a different price depending on their impact in he game.

This is where I have to say that it's the GM's job to govern this stuff. If feats get out of hand, it's no different than a D&D GM handing out too many magic items too fast. Players can, and should, be told "no" when the pick something that doesn't fit thier character, be that the class or the way they've been playing it up to that point. If you have a player that has been playing an evasive dodge monkey in combat, and that player suddenly wants Great Cleave, it's not only a good idea to ask "Why do you want taht all of a sudden?", but it's probably you obligation as GM too. Letting players have whatever they want or spend hours picking just the right feat from half a dozen books or more, and you're asking for trouble from the start. So, that's nothingto do with the system either, but rather GM responsibility.

Worst of it, it makes NPC creation a pain. I guess the main reason is D&D was designed as a Player vs. Monster game, the critters using ready to use templates.[/quote/

Um...this is taken care of in the back of the main book, and if you don't like changing a couple of adjectives or swapping feats, it's still been proven that simply jotting down numbers and arbitrarily selecting feats can amount to a quick NPC foe easily. I really don't get what the hang up is here, unless you're talking about complex, multi-level, multi-class villains, but those sorts should take time toi craft, and shouldn't die with the rest of the mooks. But I won't spend more time here; it's been refuted alread by others and actual examples exist in this thread that you can source.

To make your high level NPC, you have to go through each level, calculating skill ranks, counting feats, checking prerequisites and stat increases that modify skills points and so on.
If your NPC is a sorceror you also have to cope with the magic rules… That’s very much time consuming for a person like me. I rather spend my free time designing adventures than crunching numbers.

You have plenty of time. If you are creating an NPC of the level you are talking about, you should start creating him far in advance of the session in which your PCs will encounter him. Again, however, that doesn't mean it's a messed up system. It just means that it takes a while of dedicated thought to create a high level character from scratch without actually going throught he process of playing the game and gaining experience. Um...duh! It should be! Besides, if you feel you need a 12th level Sorcerer with 8 levels of Nobel and 6 levels of Pirate...your group has at least 26 experience levels until they are of equal level, not to mention the challenges involved with fighting through all of that badass's henchmen. You have P-L-E-N-T-Y of time to figure this sort of complicate character out while the PCs level normally.

Even if you need such a character quickly, you can easily spend an hour or two creating a scenario-freindly version who will toss spells A, B and C and then split. Stats wil be needed, but all skills and feats are largely irrelevant.

Besides the fact that if you don't want to do paper work, you have selsected the wrong hobby.

I also have a problem with the combat/hit points system that seem much unrealistic to me: In d20, you hit often and characters can generally withstand great amount of damage. Yes, I know about hit points being more than wounds, being combat experience and fatigue and so on… I’ve been hearing this since the early days of D&D. It simply doesn’t feat my vision of combat in RPGs. I prefer engines like the BRP where combat is a succession of attacks, parries and dodge, where one good landed blow can kill a man outright. In these games, there are no “OK I have 45 hp remaining, I can take it!”. Conan is a gritty world where death strikes swiftly. I RQ you don’t boast too much before the guard pointing a crossbow at you. In D20, you just sneer…

One good blow can kill outright in Conan D20 RPG. It's rolling a CRIT or simply rolling 20+ damage. That can kill anything that isn't immune somehow, and I can't recall anything that is short of demons. If that guarge with the crossbow has Ranged Finesse and gets a CRIT that also bypasses armor, you could be dead...BLAM. By the same token, if your players are constantly pulling the “OK I have 45 hp remaining, I can take it!” line, then you, as GM, aren't challengin gthem enough on that. That's your first clue to raise the threat level and make them worry about tat 45 points being zero really quickly.

I’ve been running Conan games using different systems and ran my last campaign over the last two years with the D20 system, so I can say I really tried. With all this Conan galore from Mongoose, I thought my life would be easier using D20 when actually it has just been the contrary.

Again, this is not a direct critic for those who enjoy the system. I’m not trying to prove anyone how right I am or whatever. I’m just giving my point of view on a topic about seeing Conan with another system in a future world of endless possibilities.

And so you are not amongst the "novice" or "untested" that I cite as mainly driving the D20 hate bandwagon. It's also perfectly okay that you simply dislike D20. You aren't some sort of pariah in my eyes (lol). But I also suggest that your points aren't solid enough to lend creedence to the assertion that Conan D20 is in need of changing to a new system.For Conan to work in any system, that system will have to have classes, loads of skills, something akin to feats for doing heroically spectacular things, and some mechanic for guaging a common soldier or bandit from a super dangerous Cimmerian Thief/Barbarian...like levels, for instance.

It just seems to me that if one is in search of the ideal system for a Conan RPG....you've already got it. 8)

 

[Strom]

My 2 comments:

1) I'm disappointed Azgulor didn't work in the word Ass-titude into his last post. :lol:

2) Hervé buys the books - he supports the line exactly like I do. Even though he doesn't play the game as written, he helps us D20 players by supporting the line. That gives him credibility toward his argument more than the gamer who doesn't buy the books and logs in to complain about the game her eon the forum.

 

[Azgulor]

My 2 comments:

1) I'm disappointed Azgulor didn't work in the word Ass-titude into his last post. :lol:

Bel's balls, you're right!

 

[Gavinwulf]

I voted for buying Conan no matter what the system.
I haven't followed the last argument very well but I'm not a D20 hater, I just don't prefer D20. I think other systems fit Conan better than D20. I'm secretly praying inside that Savage Worlds will make a Conan book the way they did a Solomon Kane book. -Guess I'm with Style in that sense.

If Conan D20 had a revision similar to, but not exactly like DnD 4.0 I'd consider it an improvement. What i mean is something like in-between 3.5 and 4.0, like the Star Wars Saga addition. I like the revision of skills and feats but keep the 'power-trees' down to Saga addition's 'talent trees' and I'd be happy.

 

[kintire]

On the other hand I feel the arguments of “D20 lovers” look like more like ultimatums to Mongoose (“If you change anything, I quit!”), direct attacks against players (poor Gming, novice players and the like) or out of range statements like “D20 is simple, look at Rolemaster!” or “Look, I can make a NPC in two minutes”…

As the author of both of those "out of range" statements, I would like to comment that they are both true. The first was in response to Warzen's remark that "d20 system is one of the most complex one", which is absurd. There are simpler systems out there, but one of the most complex? I think not. And I can produce an NPC in two minutes, as can anyone who realises that you don't have to produce any more NPC than will actually be needed. All this retentive stuff about needing to create every skill and feat for every NPC or you are somehow betraying the system... its just nonsense. Most NPCs will be using their stats for about three rounds. All you need is what they will be using in that time!

And no remark, including warzen's, has been one tenth as "out of range" as:

I never head of people wishing to change the system when playing Warhammer, Rifts or whatever... You only see this in D20. For me it proves something. Just as the fact that the editor chose to drop the game engine to go for a more modern one... As far as I know, neither Chaosium, Ice, Palladium or White Wolf chose to abandon their game engine foe a new one. Never before a game system has been so much criticized (and not only on these forums!).

Which is just bizarre.

We could simply exchange point of views without being disrespectful to anyone stating why we do or don’t like the system.

For one, the D20 has many advantages, as it is a very comprehensive system, but there are some things in it I profoundly dislike, thus not making it my personal choice as a game engine for Conan roleplaying.

This is a fine theory, but you haven't been following it either! It is, of course, a fact that people's tastes are different and they will prefer different systems, but you have made it quite clear that you think d20 is objectively a bad system to run Conan in, and a bad system generally. Do not be susrpised if people argue back about that.

Again, this is not a direct critic for those who enjoy the system. I’m not trying to prove anyone how right I am or whatever. I’m just giving my point of view on a topic about seeing Conan with another system in a future world of endless possibilities…

Entirely legitimate in this thread. But you do come with a history of dropping into every thread discussing any aspect of d20 mechanics and declaring that the right way to solve it is by switching systems entirely, and then arguing that d20 Conan sucks. Your posts are going to be viewed with that in mind...

 

[warzen]

The main issue is that we can't take any post from you, kintire, Az , or Sutek, seriously because you are completly binary in your judgmement.

For you guys, just saying d20 might not be the best choice for Conan is equal to be a d20 hater, a bad GM and a noob who can't learn the rules.
Sadly for you, even Matthew did notice that beginners had issue to quickly jump into the system.
I'm still under shock that you call Matthew a d20 hater, a bad GM and a noob !
What a lack of respect...

If I take my case, you've happily flagged me as a d20 hater, despite the fact that I'm running two campaigns using d20, and one of these I just started last Friday. I must be a complete mad man to just run those games with a system I so hate...

Please, try to gather some sense, trying to not categorize people that disagree with you and you'll see that we are open minded.

W.

 

[Azgulor]

The main issue is that we can't take any post from you, kintire, Az , or Sutek, seriously because you are completly binary in your judgmement.

For you guys, just saying d20 might not be the best choice for Conan is equal to be a d20 hater, a bad GM and a noob who can't learn the rules.
Sadly for you, even Matthew did notice that beginners had issue to quickly jump into the system.
I'm still under shock that you call Matthew a d20 hater, a bad GM and a noob !
What a lack of respect...

If I take my case, you've happily flagged me as a d20 hater, despite the fact that I'm running two campaigns using d20, and one of these I just started last Friday. I must be a complete mad man to just run those games with a system I so hate...

Please, try to gather some sense, trying to not categorize people that disagree with you and you'll see that we are open minded.

W.

While your degree in Circular Logic from the University of Internet Debate may hold water elsewhere, YOU are the one limiting things to a binary outcome.

My preference for, support of, and requirement for continued patronage of the Conan OGL system was clearly stated. It's a simple combination of enjoyment, emulation, and economics. I like the game's rules and implentation (i.e. I have fun), I think it emulates the source material very well, and I can't justify investing in a different system. As a fan and customer, I have just as much of a right to express my support as the critics have to express their dislike.

That aside, I took issue with opinions being presented as objective fact, e.g. "NPCs take too long to create". If my experience or others is that it doesn't take too long, nothing you state refutes it. It may take too long for you (as an example), but that doesn't negate my experience any more than mine negates yours.

If I find it less than credible or plausible to run the Conan RPG for months without becoming passingly familiar with the rules, and many of the criticisms were ones I might have made before I became familiar with the rules. That's valid b/c it didn't take me or my group that long (try a couple of sessions). Maybe the critics didn't give it a fair shot, maybe they did. A lot of it was sounding hollow to me and I expressed my opinion.

I also bowed out for many, many pages until after reading many, many pages of what I've termed the "crap vs. gold" debate I couldn't stand it. I found it to be in poor taste. I also went out of my way to highlight my biases up front and said I welcomed constructive criticism and discussion. Straw man arguments, hyperbole, and rudeness don't meet that criteria, IMO. (I know, I know, they're the bread and butter of Internet debate...)

So please, before you hold up your moral indignation, you might want to wipe the crap off. Accusing others of being unobjective, intolerant, or disresepectful doesn't make you any more objective, tolerant or respectful.

If you're a Conan & Mongoose fan, more power to you. If you can discuss what you enjoy or dislike about the game in a civil manner, I'll read your posts and join you in the discussion. I don't know if you're a d20 or OGL hater, nor do I particularly care.

What I do know is that the claims you just made against me, Sutek, and kintire are demonstrably untrue. I addressed my posts specifically but after years of visiting these boards, I haven't found Sutek or Kintire guilty of the charge you make. So you'll have to excuse me if I take your post with a grain of salt large enough to give an elephant a stroke.

 

[kintire]

For you guys, just saying d20 might not be the best choice for Conan is equal to be a d20 hater, a bad GM and a noob who can't learn the rules.
Sadly for you, even Matthew did notice that beginners had issue to quickly jump into the system.
I'm still under shock that you call Matthew a d20 hater, a bad GM and a noob !
What a lack of respect...

Liar. I have said no such thing, and I defy you to quote me doing so.

If I take my case, you've happily flagged me as a d20 hater, despite the fact that I'm running two campaigns using d20, and one of these I just started last Friday. I must be a complete mad man to just run those games with a system I so hate...

Again. I have said no such thing. I have pointed out that the statement that d20 is one of the most complicated systems out there is not true. That is, in fact, the case.

Please, try to gather some sense, trying to not categorize people that disagree with you and you'll see that we are open minded.

:roll:

 

[Hervé]

Sutek wrote:

Well there's a key problem with your argument: Role playing has nothing to do with the game system. Role playing takes place without the system getting involved, although the system can be utilized to manuever the role playing experience. There jsut seems to be an opinion that the two are inextribly linked, and they are, in fact, mutually exclusive. I've played D20 games where there was a lot of combat and skill checks, but I've also played entire nights without rolling a single die.

While it is generally true that systems and role playing aren’t linked, D&D is somewhat different. There is definitively a “D&D mentality”, and it has been there from the start, more than 30 years ago and it grew stronger with the apparition of the D20 system (For a recent example look at the “get your D&D out of my Conan” thread…). I can tell this by experience, being a gamer for more than 30 years and working in LGS for some 20 years. I’ve been talking with generations of gamers and I can assure that the system has an impact on the players’ perception of the game. I don’t say that the “narratist” approach is better than the “gamist” one and that you can’t roleplay using OGL, but game engines influence the way games are played, want it or not. Tactical systems lead to tactical thinking.

A class/lvl system is intended to create stereotypes within the world it is trying to emulate. Fight, Magic User, Thief and Cleric set the tone for early D&D and let you know the "reality" of the world you were about to inhabit. Conan is no different, and if fact begs for stereotypes to be set up because that's the way REH wrote the stories. The genra and material relates directly to a class/level system, even though it can be uneqivalent at low levels. Technically, Conan is pretty high level when we, as readers, are introduced to him, so the level progression vs. talent gain bell curve may be a bit generous in D20, but it works, and suits the stories. That's paramount with a property like Conan, and Mongoose achieves this nicely.

I don’t think the “power curve” is so apparent in Conan stories. Conan is a formidable fighter from the start and while the character gains in maturity and wisdom through his carrier, his fighting prowess don’t seem to increase that much. In the stories you can’t really tell who is a soldier, thief or whatever. Most characters look actually multiclassed. Of course the Conan RPG encourages multiclassing. It just tends to prove that the classes are indeed too narrow to reflect the Hyborian people by themselves, as the game system has to be somewhat bended to adapt to the mood of the stories. But most of the time it was the Hyborian world that was adapted to the system, and not the contrary, as it should have been with a licensed product. The Howard stories have their own unique mood and should get their own unique system to reflect this.

One good blow can kill outright in Conan D20 RPG. It's rolling a CRIT or simply rolling 20+ damage. That can kill anything that isn't immune somehow, and I can't recall anything that is short of demons. If that guarge with the crossbow has Ranged Finesse and gets a CRIT that also bypasses armor, you could be dead...BLAM. By the same token, if your players are constantly pulling the “OK I have 45 hp remaining, I can take it!” line, then you, as GM, aren't challengin gthem enough on that. That's your first clue to raise the threat level and make them worry about tat 45 points being zero really quickly.

The main difference is that in D20, you have good chances of being only scratched and a very slim chance to get killed or badly wounded by such an attack. Players don’t generally say “OK I have 45 hp remaining, I can take it!”, but often act like they know it…

For Conan to work in any system, that system will have to have classes, loads of skills, something akin to feats for doing heroically spectacular things, and some mechanic for guaging a common soldier or bandit from a super dangerous Cimmerian Thief/Barbarian...like levels, for instance.

Most systems will let the players have the heroic part without being so restrictive. Think of games like Savage Worlds for instance that have very simple mechanics to differentiate Heroes from Goons. Even the BRP has options for more heroic play, without “walling” the game.

Besides the fact that if you don't want to do paper work, you have selsected the wrong hobby.

I always thought that roleplaying had more to do with literacy than maths… I love writing but the “crunchy” approach is a just a waste of time to me.

It just seems to me that if one is in search of the ideal system for a Conan RPG....you've already got it.

Obviously, it is not what I’m thinking…

Gavinwulf wrote :

[… ] I'm not a D20 hater, I just don't prefer D20. I think other systems fit Conan better than D20.

That’s what I’ve trying to say for a while…

 

[kintire]

While it is generally true that systems and role playing aren’t linked, D&D is somewhat different. There is definitively a “D&D mentality”, and it has been there from the start, more than 30 years ago and it grew stronger with the apparition of the D20 system (For a recent example look at the “get your D&D out of my Conan” thread…). I can tell this by experience, being a gamer for more than 30 years and working in LGS for some 20 years. I’ve been talking with generations of gamers and I can assure that the system has an impact on the players’ perception of the game. I don’t say that the “narratist” approach is better than the “gamist” one and that you can’t roleplay using OGL, but game engines influence the way games are played, want it or not. Tactical systems lead to tactical thinking.

This is completely at variance with my experience. My experience is absolutely clear: GMs influence the way games are played, and players as well to a slightly lesser extent. Systems are of almost no importance, to the point that I have played in several campaigns that changed system, one of them three times, without any change in style or mood.

I don’t think the “power curve” is so apparent in Conan stories. Conan is a formidable fighter from the start and while the character gains in maturity and wisdom through his carrier, his fighting prowess don’t seem to increase that much. In the stories you can’t really tell who is a soldier, thief or whatever.

The first part of this is certainly true, but I am utterly unconvinced by the second. Can you really not tell any difference between Balthus, Pallantides and Valeria? Or between any of them and Taurus of Nemedia or Nabonidus the Red Priest? The vast majority of people have a definite speciality and style, such that I for one am quite confident in calling Pallantides a Noble, Balthus a borderer, Valeria a pirate, Taurus a Thief and Nabonidus a scholar. Conan is, at various stages of his career, all of these things but that isn't so with most people he meets.

The main difference is that in D20, you have good chances of being only scratched and a very slim chance to get killed or badly wounded by such an attack. Players don’t generally say “OK I have 45 hp remaining, I can take it!”, but often act like they know it…

And that's why I use d20 Conan, and not Runequest or Riddle of Steel. Because actually, this IS the way that combat in Conan works. Howard's combat, while described with a power and panache that makes it feel realistic, actually isn't at all. Significant heroes wade into overwhelming numbers of enemies, and those enemies are piled at their feet. Seriously overwhelming numbers do eventually prevail, but generally speaking it is enemy heroes and sorcerers that hand the heroes their (few and temporary) defeats. Any realistic system just doesn't handle this. Superior numbers of inferior foes are a serious problem in Runequest, and lethal in Riddle of Steel, however skilled you are.

Most systems will let the players have the heroic part without being so restrictive. Think of games like Savage Worlds for instance that have very simple mechanics to differentiate Heroes from Goons. Even the BRP has options for more heroic play, without “walling” the game.

Having only two levels is more restrictive, not less. It is simpler, but allows for less gradation.

 

[Hervé]

Kintire wrote:

The vast majority of people have a definite speciality and style, such that I for one am quite confident in calling Pallantides a Noble, Balthus a borderer, Valeria a pirate, Taurus a Thief and Nabonidus a scholar. Conan is, at various stages of his career, all of these things but that isn't so with most people he meets.

Unfortunately for you most of the characters you mention are multiclassed by D20 standards. For instance, Pallantides is Noble/Soldier and Valeria Pirate/Soldier. Again the sheer rigidity of the D20 system doesn’t really reflects Howard’s versatility.

And that's why I use d20 Conan, and not Runequest or Riddle of Steel. Because actually, this IS the way that combat in Conan works. Howard's combat, while described with a power and panache that makes it feel realistic, actually isn't at all. Significant heroes wade into overwhelming numbers of enemies, and those enemies are piled at their feet.

I agree that combat in Conan should fast, furious and dirty. Something D20 combat never is, being way too much scripted to my eyes.

Having only two levels is more restrictive, not less. It is simpler, but allows for less gradation.

I’m not talking about levels at all. Some games simply use the difference between heroic characters and goons. The power curve still exists in these games, just in a less monolithic way.