What if Conan leaves d20 for anotehr system?

What will you do if Conan leaves d20 for another system?

  • I will buy the new Conan books, whatever the system.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I will never buy the Conan books in the new system.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
Unfortunately for you most of the characters you mention are multiclassed by D20 standards. For instance, Pallantides is Noble/Soldier and Valeria Pirate/Soldier. Again the sheer rigidity of the D20 system doesn’t really reflects Howard’s versatility.

Just to hop in here for a second. The ability to multiclass is exactly the reason why d20 is extremely fluid and not rigid. The ability to take d20 classes and prestige classes and mix them how your character sees fit is often TOO variable for some people.

Now, if someone was to discuss how rigid the classes are within their own class structure, sure, but not as a gaming system as a whole.

Back to the debate folks...

Cheers,
Bry
 
Unfortunately for you most of the characters you mention are multiclassed by D20 standards. For instance, Pallantides is Noble/Soldier and Valeria Pirate/Soldier. Again the sheer rigidity of the D20 system doesn’t really reflects Howard’s versatility.

Why is that unfortunate? Actually, I'm not at all convinced that Valeria has any soldier levels: she doesn't seem to wear any armour and her style doesn't seem suitable for a formation. But there is nothing whatever to stop you building Pallantides as a Noble/Soldier if you want. As Steele says, multiclassing is easy.

I agree that combat in Conan should fast, furious and dirty. Something D20 combat never is, being way too much scripted to my eyes.

Combat in Conan consists of one die roll, two if you hit. Maybe three if you are tumbling into position or something. Combat in RQ consists of two, attack and parry: four if the attack hits. I've never played Savage Worlds, but I don't find RQ combat especially slow, and I certainly don't have that problem with Conan. If you mean the 45hp left problem, with damage easily in the high teens to mid 20s per hit and criticals delivering up to 50, I havent seen that as a problem either.

I’m not talking about levels at all. Some games simply use the difference between heroic characters and goons. The power curve still exists in these games, just in a less monolithic way.

But actually you are. The relationship between a Hero and a Goon, or a Mook in Feng Shui or a Minion in 4e, is much the same as the relation between a 10th level character and a 1st level npc class character in Conan. The difference is that Conan is LESS monolithic, because you have those 10 levels to play with so you can have variation in your mookage.

What it boils down to is that d20 Conan is a good system (not flawless, but good) which models Conan's world very well. It does so with a certain set of styles or assumptions, which fit some people's personal taste and not others. You may prefer another system which models Conan equally well, but with a different style. That's fine, but its just a matter of taste. Attempts to turn personal taste into objective truth are not very successful.
 
Valeria is a Mercenary / Sell Sword with a pirate background IIRC and a bit of theivery - whatever gets her by in the harsh world.

Having played a fair bit of d20 recently - which started really well with a low magic (for the players and most encounters) but exotic and elements of high magic around it has now degnenerated into people being walking magic items with excessive abilities feats etc - loosing all the bits I enjoyed, sad really - one 12th level charatcer - some kind of psychic monstrosity which was dealing out 50+ damage (basic) on each of his 5 attacks at +20 to hit and level drain and other stuff............

now personally I prefer BRP (quite modified) or something like Edens Buffy system - I also don't like Savage Worlds at all.

Whilst D20 is simple in the roll D20 and see if you hit - so many times I have seen it used in just that way

I roll to hit, my total is 25, given that my XYZ modifers are this - I do this much damage - it can be very bland........ as most time is spent working out numbers and modifiers............

- its much better for me as both GM and player having different moves and descriptions - parrying, dodging, leaping etc and not having to have specialist feats to at least make the attempt.

Action Points in d20 are a good idea (but again not as intersting as it could be) - I nicked the drama points system from Buffy and use in BRP (for both sides)

bit of a ramble there but I find D20 restrictive from a narative way in a way that many systems are not. Again recently played a bit of 4th Ed (basically a board game) and it seems to be the same - is not a flaw as such just not what I want from a rpg..................
 
While I think that d20 system is much too cumbersome for me to run. For me the NPC creation takes too much time because I would have to remember all those zillion Feats, Special Abilities etc. of which some stack and some don't. I might even be able to create first or second level characters but that's it. It would take me too much time to create a 5th level main antagonist not to mention that I would have to remember all those abilities and feats at the heat of the combat, no dice :p

Personally I would think that having all those options as is to PCs is just fine but having a unified/optional system for creating mooks would help a bit. This would still give the same pain when creating important NPCs.

I agree that combat is pretty cinematic in Conan. He often goes head to head against impossible odds and emerges victorious. This sort of highlights a moment in a Lankhmar short story (sorry, can't remember the name) where heroes were faced with 1:2 or 1:3 odds against them and they thought them pretty grim. Very different than Conan, isn't it? So, yes I think current lethality is pretty good for the Conan feel.

What comes to Savage Worlds with Heroes and Mooks it's not as black and white as it sounds. In SW mooks can have better abilities than (starting) Hero PCs and even soak multiple hits before going down, IIRC. In that system Heroes (or Wild Cards) have some benefits.

Personally I would prefer a pretty open ended system that is built to Conan in mind (from the beginning).
 
Kintire wrote:
Actually, I'm not at all convinced that Valeria has any soldier levels: she doesn't seem to wear any armour and her style doesn't seem suitable for a formation. But there is nothing whatever to stop you building Pallantides as a Noble/Soldier if you want. As Steele says, multiclassing is easy.

These two characters are described in official Conan books. I’m not convinced either that Valeria should have Soldier levels, but Vincent Darlage chose to describe her that way in Ruins of Hyboria, and I bet he is more knowledgeable than I am on both the Hyborian World end the d20 system. As for Pallantides, Vincent made him Noble 9/Soldier 9 in the Aquilonia Sourcebook which suits the vision I had of the character. That does not make multiclassing an easy job for me, as it would take far much longer to design such a character in d20 that it would in other games.

Combat in Conan consists of one die roll, two if you hit. Maybe three if you are tumbling into position or something. Combat in RQ consists of two, attack and parry: four if the attack hits. I've never played Savage Worlds, but I don't find RQ combat especially slow, and I certainly don't have that problem with Conan.

The use of Feats, manoeuvres and special rules can slow down d20 combat. Furthermore, combat is quite passive in D20, as when it’s your turn, your opponent can only stand and watch you chaining combos right in his face. From my experience, combat is much vivid when both participants have a chance to act, even in a defensive way. You don’t want to miss that Parry roll when you have only a few Hps remaining! Furthermore, games like BRP use direct reading on dices, when d20 asks you to add your dice roll to a bonus, then compare it to a target number. It’s not that difficult, of course, but slows down combat as much as an active defense roll. And we're only talking about speed here. the words "furious" and "dirty" were also in the same sentence.

The relationship between a Hero and a Goon, or a Mook in Feng Shui or a Minion in 4e, is much the same as the relation between a 10th level character and a 1st level npc class character in Conan. The difference is that Conan is LESS monolithic, because you have those 10 levels to play with so you can have variation in your mookage.

You can also make variations to your “mookage” in these games. It’s only far easier to do it. I call the system monolithic for reasons I mentioned in other posts. The Class/Lvl system and the general tendency of D20 of putting everything under a “Template” leads, at least to my eyes, to monolithic stereotyped characters and NPCS, like Thief=Sneak Attack or that kind of silly stuff.

What it boils down to is that d20 Conan is a good system (not flawless, but good) which models Conan's world very well.

If the perfect system existed, we should know it by now, as generations of players have been looking for it! But no, I don’t think D20 models Conan’s world very well. On the contrary, it was Conan’s world that was adapted to fit with D&D rules. The game system wasn’t designed with the Hyborian world in mind. It was designed for Dungeon & Dragons and then adapted to Conan. We all know here how much these two games have different moods.

It does so with a certain set of styles or assumptions, which fit some people's personal taste and not others. You may prefer another system which models Conan equally well, but with a different style. That's fine, but its just a matter of taste.
I can only completely agree on this: it’s all a matter of personal taste.

Attempts to turn personal taste into objective truth are not very successful.

Now, that's mean!
Do you really think that only d20 detractors like myself are doing this? Subjectivity and narrow minding were there from the beginning of this thread, and more than often on the “D20 lovers” ‘side. We can’t really blame no one about this, as we’re discussing of personal tastes…

Anyways, maybe it would be nice to know how much people were familiar with the D20 system before they started playing Conan. I guess most of the d20 supporters were playing D&D before Conan while it seems most of the detractors already had problems with the D&D style. The D&D approach of roleplaying has never been my vision of the game, and I ran hyborian campaigns using different systems over the last 25 years or so. I haven’t found yet the game system that would reflect my feeling of the hyborian world, but it is certainly not the D20 system.
 
These two characters are described in official Conan books. I’m not convinced either that Valeria should have Soldier levels, but Vincent Darlage chose to describe her that way in Ruins of Hyboria, and I bet he is more knowledgeable than I am on both the Hyborian World end the d20 system.

I have immense respect for Vincent Darlarge. But his stats for Valeria in Ruins of Hyboria are a serious mistake, and not just because he's given her soldier levels. He's made her 10 levels lower than the other characters for some reason!

That does not make multiclassing an easy job for me, as it would take far much longer to design such a character in d20 that it would in other games.

What other games? Levle based systems are easy to design characters in. Its skills based systems that cause the problem.

The use of Feats, manoeuvres and special rules can slow down d20 combat.

On very rare occasions feats add an extra roll to the fight. Other than that, they have no effect on combat speed other than possibly a bit of addition: and since its exactly the same sum every time you use the feat, it won't delay you long!

the words "furious" and "dirty" were also in the same sentence.

They were, but that has everything to do with scene description and little to do with system. Of course, if the system is so cumbersome that action adopts the speed of a galcier, as in Rolemaster, that is a problem but D20 is well short of that.

You can also make variations to your “mookage” in these games. It’s only far easier to do it. I call the system monolithic for reasons I mentioned in other posts. The Class/Lvl system and the general tendency of D20 of putting everything under a “Template” leads, at least to my eyes, to monolithic stereotyped characters and NPCS, like Thief=Sneak Attack or that kind of silly stuff.

That is certainly a risk, but the easy availiability of multiclassing reduces it. And non class based systems lead to a general tendency for everyone to start looking the same and "legion of the Clones" parties. No system is perfect. And tweaking the mooks according to their level in DnD is trivial. NPC classes don't even have feats, and who cares what their skills are?

But no, I don’t think D20 models Conan’s world very well. On the contrary, it was Conan’s world that was adapted to fit with D&D rules. The game system wasn’t designed with the Hyborian world in mind. It was designed for Dungeon & Dragons and then adapted to Conan. We all know here how much these two games have different moods.

It was very heavily adapted to Conan, and I see no sense in which the world has been altered.

Now, that's mean!
Do you really think that only d20 detractors like myself are doing this?

No of course not. I think that it is mostly the d20 detractors who are doing it in THIS thread, but there are many other examples of it going the other way. But the fact that they do it too doesn't make it any better.

And no offense, but for someone who is expressing only their personal opinion and doesn't think they are dealing with Objective Truth, you have a rather evangelical approach. It is impossible to start a thread on this board discussing a problem or concern with any aspect of D20 Conan without someone dropping in and saying that the problem is that the whole d20 system is rubbish, and trying to convert everyone to their personal favourite system, and that someone is very often you.
 
Sorry to intrude but I wanted to pipe in...

kintire said:
That does not make multiclassing an easy job for me, as it would take far much longer to design such a character in d20 that it would in other games.

What other games? Levle based systems are easy to design characters in. Its skills based systems that cause the problem.
I guess a purely level based system would be easy and from personal experience I have seen that skill based systems are easy too (as long as you don't restrict yourself with character generation rules for PCs). The problem is when you try and combine these two systems, IMHO.

I don't care how complicated a character generation process for PCs is because players can handle it and they can usually take care of only one character and start it with a set "level".

My problem lies in fact that if you want level X NPC you must calculate if he can have the skill level you are also looking for and what else skills he also might have and at what level. If there is a shortcut for that, I am all ears (or eyes in this case).

This problem lies not only in d20 but in all skill/level based systems like in Rolemaster. It is a bit easier in Earthdawn because to get to certain circle (level) you must have certain talents (basically magical versions of skills) at certain level (rank).

kintire said:
the words "furious" and "dirty" were also in the same sentence.

They were, but that has everything to do with scene description and little to do with system. Of course, if the system is so cumbersome that action adopts the speed of a galcier, as in Rolemaster, that is a problem but D20 is well short of that.
Funny, while I hate to create NPCs for Rolemaster I still find running combat with it pretty fast. Maybe the same would be with d20 but I still find it offensive to call speed of combat in Rolemaster as fast as the speed of a glacier :(


kintire said:
That is certainly a risk, but the easy availiability of multiclassing reduces it. And non class based systems lead to a general tendency for everyone to start looking the same and "legion of the Clones" parties. No system is perfect. And tweaking the mooks according to their level in DnD is trivial. NPC classes don't even have feats, and who cares what their skills are?
I suppose you are talking about pure D&D and not d20Conan or are there NPC classes in Conan, too? :shock:
 
kintire said:
I have immense respect for Vincent Darlarge. But his stats for Valeria in Ruins of Hyboria are a serious mistake, and not just because he's given her soldier levels. He's made her 10 levels lower than the other characters for some reason!

"Mistake" is perhaps excessive, don't you think? It's not that you know how the TRUE Valeria was statted in the first place. It's just a view of things, surely not wrong nor correct. YMMV of course, and that's what is important.

Funny thing is, that's why I like those stats MOST. Reducing the number of levels is a good thing IMO.
 
My problem lies in fact that if you want level X NPC you must calculate if he can have the skill level you are also looking for and what else skills he also might have and at what level. If there is a shortcut for that, I am all ears (or eyes in this case).

Easy. take the number of skill points he gets per level, and give him that many skills at max level he could have. If you really want him to have more skills than that, give him two lots of half that. Better yet, give him only the skills he might actually use and forget the rest.

The point I was making was that for new players, a class/level based system gives a lot of guidance as to what sort of characters work, whereas a skills based system gives less.

Funny, while I hate to create NPCs for Rolemaster I still find running combat with it pretty fast. Maybe the same would be with d20 but I still find it offensive to call speed of combat in Rolemaster as fast as the speed of a glacier

I have met some people who know by heart the RoleMaster combat tables, and can run it at an acceptable speed. I say "some people": I actually mean two people. I am in awe of these demigods. For the rest of us a standard RM combat round:

Attacker: Divide OB between your attack and your defences, bearing in mind that your Defense Bonus is a pool that is reduced as you allocate defences to attacks. Defender: Allocate your defenses against the attack from your remaining DB. Attacker: Roll d100, rerolling if over 95 or under 5. Add your OB, deduct defenders DB. Determine defenders Armour Type (from 1-20). Look at the attack table for your weapon (yes, there's a seperate attack table for each weapon, and when I say each weapon, longswords, shortswords and scimitars are different weapons. There's an entire rulebook full of these things). Cross reference your net attack result with the defender's armour type on your weapon table, and determine the hit points, the critical and the critical type, and the secondary critical and critical type (if any). Defender: Deduct the hits from your opponent's total and calculate the effects on your skills and so on for crossing a hit point milestone. Attacker: locate the appropriate critical table for the type of critical you did (there are fewer of these: usually bash, pierce or slash, less commonly impact or unbalance plus a whole load of more exotic ones, which are not often used except for magic. Your secondary critical may be one of these, as they often come from weapon properties like Flaming or Holy). Look at the appropriate column for the severity of your critical result (A-E) and roll d100 again. Cross reference your result with the appropriate column, and determine the results. Repeat for secondary criticals if appropriate. Defender: apply the critical result. This can include skill penalties, loss of use of limbs, stunning, loss of hit points, loss of hit points per round, permanent maiming, unconciousness, death or a number of other effects. If still in the fight, hit back.

takes a while.

I suppose you are talking about pure D&D and not d20Conan or are there NPC classes in Conan, too?

D20 Conan is D20 compatible, so you can port them straight across. All you need is to allocate a defence bonus and you're away.

"Mistake" is perhaps excessive, don't you think? It's not that you know how the TRUE Valeria was statted in the first place. It's just a view of things, surely not wrong nor correct. YMMV of course, and that's what is important.

[Nerd rage]To a degree, of course, its a matter of opinion, but this strains that degree. As even a quick read of Red Nails reveals, Valeria is NOT a clinging damsel in distress. She is a legend in her own right, and operates in the novel as an ally of Conan, not a helpless dependent. She is less formidable than he is, partly because of his incredible physique, and partly because she has specialised in pircay and is out of her element in a jungle, whereas he has roved all over the world and is on familiar ground. Still, she comes closer to being Conan's equal than anyone else in the canon except Belit, and this is Conan at the height of his powers.

As far as the antagonists go, Olmec beats her, but he is clearly wary of her prowess with the sword. he bluffs his way right up to her and takes her by surprise in a grapple. She kills Tascela, and she carves through pretty much everyone else, only in trouble at one point through a lucky grapple attempt (again) at odds of three to one.

Stat blocks? I don't have them to hand, but from memory Conan, Tascela, and Olmec are around 19, Techotl is 13, and average nameless residents are 8. And Valeria is 9.

In other words, she's rammed firmly back into "Damsel in Distress!" mode. Well, YMMV, but thats not what I got from reading the story.

Valeria fought beside him, her lips smiling and her eyes blazing. She was stronger than the average man, and far quicker and more ferocious. Her sword was like a living thing in her hand. Where Conan beat down opposition by the sheer weight and power of his blows, breaking spears, splitting skulls and cleaving bosoms to the breastbone, Valeria brought into action a finesse of swordplay that dazzled and bewildered her antagonists before it slew them. Again and again a warrior, heaving high his heavy blade, found her point in his jugular before he could strike. Conan, towering above the field, strode through the welter smiting right and left, but Valeria moved like an illusive phantom, constantly shifting, and thrusting and slashing as she shifted. Swords missed her again and again as the wielders flailed the empty air and died with her point in their hearts or throats, and her mocking laughter in their ears.
[/nerd rage]
 
Probably the problem lies in the level of the other characters. Quite sincerely, 20th level characters in a d20 system of whatever kind are way off anything realistic, surely not the "humanly heroic" of a S&S setting. By any stretch of the imagination even a 10th level character is way over the usual "heroic". Just try converting a BRP character over d20 (the guidelines were published by Chaosium), and you end up with success rates over 100%. This also confirms what was written by a d20 designer (Sean Reynold?), the realistic/heroic level in d20 is up to 6-7th level. Beyond that it goes into super-heroic, which IMO Conan is not.
IIRC Vincent wrote stats for Thoth Amon around 10th level somewhere, which seem much more sensible than the stats in Scrolls of Skelos.

EDIT
Here is the reference, it was Ryan Dancey:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

The Chaosium guidelines set the level for "human" at 6-7, which seems about right in my experience of using d20 D&D for S&S games.
 
Kintire wrote:
I have immense respect for Vincent Darlarge. But his stats for Valeria in Ruins of Hyboria are a serious mistake, and not just because he's given her soldier levels. He's made her 10 levels lower than the other characters for some reason!

Actually, I think it’s probably better to have her at a more “human” level. Most NPCs in the books are often around lvl 18-20, which makes them hardly usable in play. As you know by now, I don’t really like creating NPCs in d20, so I often use characters from the books, changing a few things here and there in order to save time. And lvl 20 NPCs aren’t legion in my campaign… As Da Boss stated, it is true that Valeria is also a sellsword, hence the Soldier levels…

What other games? Levle based systems are easy to design characters in. Its skills based systems that cause the problem.

You must be kidding. Try to create a powerful NPC with a skill based system like BRP based game, then do the same in d20 and you’ll see by yourself. Furthermore D20 is also a skill based system, along with the levels and you have to calculate skill points, skill ranks, stats increase for advancing levels, skill synergy, racial, class and feat bonuses and so on…

And no offense, but for someone who is expressing only their personal opinion and doesn't think they are dealing with Objective Truth, you have a rather evangelical approach.

None taken, Kintire. Really. It’s a discussion forum and we don’t have to agree on every matter. It doesn’t change the respect that I have for you guys on this forum, and I guess it’s mutual. But what do you mean exactly by “a rather evangelical approach”? As far as I can read, your “Objective Truths” are well worth mine…

It is impossible to start a thread on this board discussing a problem or concern with any aspect of D20 Conan without someone dropping in and saying that the problem is that the whole d20 system is rubbish, and trying to convert everyone to their personal favourite system, and that someone is very often you.

Yes I may have done that, but I generally don’t write in d20 technical threads, as I’m not really interested in them. I don’t really have a “favourite system” I try to convert everyone to, but I have surely complained about the useless complexity of D20 rules. I keep on thinking the game would be better if simplified a bit. I don’t play roleplaying games to crunch numbers and thinking of the best combos for my character. It’s simply not my view of RPGs and there are many other games around to do that. I don’t care about power levelling.

But again, that does not mean I judge badly people who do so. I may be criticizing the system, but never the people who play it. I never talked for instance of “poor Gming” or “newbie players” to people that don’t agree to my views...
 
I don't know if anyone else posted something like this because I didn't read the entire thread. I actually like Conan D20 because of the changes they made in it. I like the lack of commonplace magic that is so prevalent in D&D and that because of that skills matter alot more than they do in D&D.

I actually think a Conan Saga Edition based on the Star Wars Saga edition would really be a good game. I have played Star Wars Saga and they really streamlined the system for me. They fixed the skills and made combat move much smoother. Granted, some changes would have to made to make it more appropriate for fantasy but it could be done.

Oh, and where do people ever get the idea the Runequest is so fast and easy? I played Avalon Hill Runequest and that damned thing was clunkier than any RPG I had ever played.
 
Sir Hackalot wrote:
I actually think a Conan Saga Edition based on the Star Wars Saga edition would really be a good game. I have played Star Wars Saga and they really streamlined the system for me. They fixed the skills and made combat move much smoother. Granted, some changes would have to made to make it more appropriate for fantasy but it could be done.

The game you're talking about exists, it's called DD4!
More seriously, I also tend to think that Star Wars Saga is the best version of the D20 system, much of the clumsiness of the 3.5 being wiped out.

Oh, and where do people ever get the idea the Runequest is so fast and easy? I played Avalon Hill Runequest and that damned thing was clunkier than any RPG I had ever played.
RQ has always been the most complex of all the BRP based games. Runequest III, the AH edition, was the heaviest version ever. No wonder you find it quite complex, even though I think it was still a lot smoother than d20.
 
Hervé said:
Sir Hackalot wrote:
I actually think a Conan Saga Edition based on the Star Wars Saga edition would really be a good game. I have played Star Wars Saga and they really streamlined the system for me. They fixed the skills and made combat move much smoother. Granted, some changes would have to made to make it more appropriate for fantasy but it could be done.

The game you're talking about exists, it's called DD4!
More seriously, I also tend to think that Star Wars Saga is the best version of the D20 system, much of the clumsiness of the 3.5 being wiped out.

Oh, and where do people ever get the idea the Runequest is so fast and easy? I played Avalon Hill Runequest and that damned thing was clunkier than any RPG I had ever played.
RQ has always been the most complex of all the BRP based games. Runequest III, the AH edition, was the heaviest version ever. No wonder you find it quite complex, even though I think it was still a lot smoother than d20.

Actually it's not the same. In fact that is why I was so disappointed with D&D 4th edition because of that.
 
rabindranath72 said:
EDIT
Here is the reference, it was Ryan Dancey:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

The Chaosium guidelines set the level for "human" at 6-7, which seems about right in my experience of using d20 D&D for S&S games.

A guy on ENWorld did the "E6" system (Ryan Stoughton I believe) based on what Dancey said. Basically, in E6, you advance just as you normally do in D*D all the way to 6th level. Then progressions (base attack, saves, etc) stop. Every 5,000 XP above 6th level you gain one additional feat.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html

Scott Greene
Necromancer Games
 
kintire said:
Easy. take the number of skill points he gets per level, and give him that many skills at max level he could have. If you really want him to have more skills than that, give him two lots of half that. Better yet, give him only the skills he might actually use and forget the rest.
But what about when he raises a stat and that causes the number of skill points to raise? Yes, I'm nit-picking :) You are right, maybe I should only give him the skill that are relevant. Actually that's the way I create my CP2020 NPCs, too (or any other skill based system NPC).

kintire said:
The point I was making was that for new players, a class/level based system gives a lot of guidance as to what sort of characters work, whereas a skills based system gives less.
I can't argue with that. Although I had quite a lot of experience with RPGs when I created my first Twilight:2000 character he didn't have Recon skill and thus was almost useless. So I see the point. Personally I would prefer template based character generation that guides you but doesn't restrict. After character creation the development is pretty much free. Purely in that aspect the first edition Fading Suns is the best example (I won't go to combat rules).

kintire said:
I have met some people who know by heart the RoleMaster combat tables, and can run it at an acceptable speed. I say "some people": I actually mean two people. I am in awe of these demigods.
Well, I am not part of that pantheon nor was any of the other GMs that used to run the game.

I snipped a long description of how RM combat goes. It was a pretty accurate, IIRC (it's been a while since I used that system). RM is not the quickest system out there, I'll give you that. It's not fast and furious but we had our own weapon tables copied to each player, so that sped up the combat resolution quite a bit.

Maybe we just enjoyed criticals too much to care how much each combat round actually took (most of the time). Besides in our games it was pretty rare if you got two criticals at one hit (we played classic RM).

kintire said:
I suppose you are talking about pure D&D and not d20Conan or are there NPC classes in Conan, too?

D20 Conan is D20 compatible, so you can port them straight across. All you need is to allocate a defence bonus and you're away.
Ah, OK.
 
Grazzt said:
rabindranath72 said:
EDIT
Here is the reference, it was Ryan Dancey:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

The Chaosium guidelines set the level for "human" at 6-7, which seems about right in my experience of using d20 D&D for S&S games.

A guy on ENWorld did the "E6" system (Ryan Stoughton I believe) based on what Dancey said. Basically, in E6, you advance just as you normally do in D*D all the way to 6th level. Then progressions (base attack, saves, etc) stop. Every 5,000 XP above 6th level you gain one additional feat.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html

Scott Greene
Necromancer Games
Hi Scott! Welcome to the boards! I am a huge fan of your work :)

Yes, I know about E6, it's a quite interesting take on d20 D&D, though even just stopping at 7th level or so makes for very interesting games.

The Chaosium guidelines to convert a BRP character to d20 is to divide the highest percent skill by 10 and subtract 3. With a 100% skill, the level is about 7th, which closely matches Ryan Dancey's breakdown of levels.

For S&S games, even when playing d20 Conan, I never go beyond 10th level.
 
Probably the problem lies in the level of the other characters. Quite sincerely, 20th level characters in a d20 system of whatever kind are way off anything realistic, surely not the "humanly heroic" of a S&S setting. By any stretch of the imagination even a 10th level character is way over the usual "heroic". Just try converting a BRP character over d20 (the guidelines were published by Chaosium), and you end up with success rates over 100%. This also confirms what was written by a d20 designer (Sean Reynold?), the realistic/heroic level in d20 is up to 6-7th level. Beyond that it goes into super-heroic, which IMO Conan is not.

I'm reasonably relaxed with success rates over 100%. The RQ system can handle that. The comparison is a rather awkward one, because the two systems scale very differently. In D20 as you get more powerful you can take on more and mightier foes. In RQ you can take on mightier foes, but your ability to take on more is quite small, and depends much more on your Armour Points than any skill. That's one of the reasons I'm wary of RQ Conan.

Still, you are certainly right that high level d20 is over fantastic. I'm not sure I would trim it at 7: Conan does take on entire cities, albeit decaying ones, large groups of elite warriors and packs of 20 odd were hyena, for example. I find that characters around 12 do fine as Conan heroes. But you're right, I don't play to 20.

Herve
Actually, I think it’s probably better to have her at a more “human” level.

That's not the point. I'm not objecting to her level or stat block as such, but the fact that she is ten levels lower than the other major characters, and lower level than a character portrayed as no more than a competent fighter. Its not her absolute level, its the fact she's relegated to eye candy.

You must be kidding. Try to create a powerful NPC with a skill based system like BRP based game, then do the same in d20 and you’ll see by yourself.

I have done both. Its way way easier in d20. Once you know someone's class and level you can almost run them from memory. And I was referring more to creating PCs: with a level based system you have a lot of guidance, whereas with skills based you are in at the deep end, although MRQ does provide you with a lot more support than most.

But what do you mean exactly by “a rather evangelical approach”?

Well, take a quick look at "Software tools for Conan". Innocent question followed by drive by d20 bash...

But again, that does not mean I judge badly people who do so. I may be criticizing the system, but never the people who play it. I never talked for instance of “poor Gming” or “newbie players” to people that don’t agree to my views...

Neither do I.

Oh, and where do people ever get the idea the Runequest is so fast and easy? I played Avalon Hill Runequest and that damned thing was clunkier than any RPG I had ever played.

They get this idea because they are actually mostly talking about character design. Avalon Hill Runequest had a limited skill selection and no feats or special abilities, so designing a basic character was not difficult, if it had no magic. Of course, there was a 90% chance the character would be completely rubbish, but it would be rubbish without taking up much time. They are not talking about actual play, where RQ is unquestionably clunkier than d20, requiring four rolls to resolve an attack to d20's 2.

That said, it is a fact that Avalon Hill was the clunkiest RQ version, and it was still not very clunky at all. If its the clunkiest RPG you've played, you have been very very lucky!

Maybe we just enjoyed criticals too much to care how much each combat round actually took (most of the time). Besides in our games it was pretty rare if you got two criticals at one hit (we played classic RM).

I do have a slight soft spot for the critical descriptions, also the fumbles (you stumble over an imaginary deceased turtle...) but I found it a pain in the neck to play and an unadulterated nightmare to GM. Combat is so random, and even a minor crit can kill or maim a PC, or at least take them out of the fight. Designing encounters was aweful, and I had to fudge die roll after die roll to keep any character continuity going on. Almost any E crit takes a PC out of the adventure, half of them take him out of the campaign and you get and e crit every time the enemy rolls 95-00. Thats one in twenty hits! It was ghastly. I had a six person party, so if a typical fight lasts three rounds or so, they would get on average an enemy overoll = character dead or permenantly maimed every other fight. Bah.
 
kintire said:
I do have a slight soft spot for the critical descriptions, also the fumbles (you stumble over an imaginary deceased turtle...) but I found it a pain in the neck to play and an unadulterated nightmare to GM. Combat is so random, and even a minor crit can kill or maim a PC, or at least take them out of the fight. Designing encounters was aweful, and I had to fudge die roll after die roll to keep any character continuity going on. Almost any E crit takes a PC out of the adventure, half of them take him out of the campaign and you get and e crit every time the enemy rolls 95-00. Thats one in twenty hits! It was ghastly. I had a six person party, so if a typical fight lasts three rounds or so, they would get on average an enemy overoll = character dead or permenantly maimed every other fight. Bah.
In hindsight we sometimes retired the session early when a big fight was imminent and we knew we had to get up early next morning.

Combat was pretty brutal but then again I like it that way. Granted, I used some sort of fate points. In this application every time I had to fudge a critical roll it costed 1 fate point. So, I usually modified the critical roll only so much that the PC didn't die instantly. If someone bled to death, that was another matter.

I was not the first one to run RM and we went through plenty of characters in a few years that we played the game actively. One of our early lessons was that some sort of healer was a necessity. With a good healer you could get even a badly maimed character back to his feet pretty fast.

In any case I would not recommend RM for a Conan game :D
 
Back
Top