kintire said:Actually, Conan does fix the fundamental problem with 3.5, which is that it is largely unusable after level 10. It does this by removing magic, and replacing it with a magic system that does not break everything at higher levels!
rabindranath72 said:My points are completely lost, I see (I would really like to understand what magic has to do with the complexity of the system...)
rabindranath72 said:Which would be? The feats and skills systems are there, mutatis mutandis, together with the combat system, which has been made even more complex. Incidentally, these are the main causes of concerns for the people who do not like d20.Ranzadule said:Conan OGL fixes pretty much everything bad in d20.
I sincerely wonder if people who make this kind of comments has ever played D&D 3.5. 90% (or more) of the rules are the same. It's only the "accessories" (like races and classes) which differ.
Again, it's that 90% that people who do not like d20 frown upon.
Now, if you are speaking about the "feel" of D&D, that is quite a different topic, and not directly related to rules (e.g. Vancian magic).
rabindranath72 said:You must first arrive at 10th level, and navigate between fights which last hours, creation of NPCs which takes hours (and will almost always be wrong) etc.
My points are completely lost, I see (I would really like to understand what magic has to do with the complexity of the system...)
Oh well, to everyone his own, I guess.
Hopefully Mongoose will offer something also to people who are willing to buy a setting, not only a bunch of stats.
I sincerely wonder if people who make this kind of comments has ever played D&D 3.5. 90% (or more) of the rules are the same. It's only the "accessories" (like races and classes) which differ.
Azgulor said:Fixes from standard D&D:
1. Removal of dependence upon magic items
2. Removal of magic as technology
3. Removal of magic nerfing skills
4. Skills matter much more (see item above)
5. Wider range of class skills per class
6. Greater support for multiple warrior styles, as evidenced by multiple viable warrior classes.
7. Non-magic-using ranger
8. Viable manipulator class (Temptress)
9. Viable pirate class
10. Greater accessibility for high-level play (derived from toning down of magic dependency)
11. Armor as DR
12. Simultaneously deemphasizing possessions while incresing viability of treasure/wealth as good motivator. (High-living rules, scarcity of magic items, removal of magic item dependence.)
13. Increased tactical choice. Combat manuvers, class features, etc.
14. Grittier combat - MDT, combat manuvers, armor as DR, increased damage, etc.
15. Superior barbarian class - no longer an "I Rage" one-trick pony.
16. Removal of Alignment and replacement by superior Allegiance & Code of Honor rules
17. Reputation stat
18. Wider range of classical sword-n-sorcery archetypes support fantasy range depicted in fiction & film much better than D&D archetypes which support D&D-style fantasy well but any other style of fantasy less well.
19. Restores magic as mysterious, dangerous, and potentially corrupting force rather than special-effect driven, benign, & reliable version of D&D.
Note 1: Classes are a core component of a class/level system, not an accessory.
Some obviously impact or build off of one another, but those are the ones off of the top of my head. Some of these are straight mechanical improvements while others address "feel" aspects. The fact that Conan fixes all of these while maintaining compatibility with the majority of d20/OGL content in the market is a testament to its strength, not a weakness.
If you don't like class/level systems, d20-based games, or the Conan game that's fine. To imply that Conan is D&D with the serial numbers filed off is a gross mischaracterization.
Sure, lots of time at his disposal. I envy him, really..Ranzadule said:Azgulor said:Fixes from standard D&D:
1. Removal of dependence upon magic items
2. Removal of magic as technology
3. Removal of magic nerfing skills
4. Skills matter much more (see item above)
5. Wider range of class skills per class
6. Greater support for multiple warrior styles, as evidenced by multiple viable warrior classes.
7. Non-magic-using ranger
8. Viable manipulator class (Temptress)
9. Viable pirate class
10. Greater accessibility for high-level play (derived from toning down of magic dependency)
11. Armor as DR
12. Simultaneously deemphasizing possessions while incresing viability of treasure/wealth as good motivator. (High-living rules, scarcity of magic items, removal of magic item dependence.)
13. Increased tactical choice. Combat manuvers, class features, etc.
14. Grittier combat - MDT, combat manuvers, armor as DR, increased damage, etc.
15. Superior barbarian class - no longer an "I Rage" one-trick pony.
16. Removal of Alignment and replacement by superior Allegiance & Code of Honor rules
17. Reputation stat
18. Wider range of classical sword-n-sorcery archetypes support fantasy range depicted in fiction & film much better than D&D archetypes which support D&D-style fantasy well but any other style of fantasy less well.
19. Restores magic as mysterious, dangerous, and potentially corrupting force rather than special-effect driven, benign, & reliable version of D&D.
Note 1: Classes are a core component of a class/level system, not an accessory.
Some obviously impact or build off of one another, but those are the ones off of the top of my head. Some of these are straight mechanical improvements while others address "feel" aspects. The fact that Conan fixes all of these while maintaining compatibility with the majority of d20/OGL content in the market is a testament to its strength, not a weakness.
If you don't like class/level systems, d20-based games, or the Conan game that's fine. To imply that Conan is D&D with the serial numbers filed off is a gross mischaracterization.
Brilliant description of Conan's superiority over d20! I was too lazy to spell it out. Thnks for taking the time. :wink:
rabindranath72 said:Sure, lots of time at his disposal. I envy him, really..Ranzadule said:Azgulor said:Fixes from standard D&D:
1. Removal of dependence upon magic items
2. Removal of magic as technology
3. Removal of magic nerfing skills
4. Skills matter much more (see item above)
5. Wider range of class skills per class
6. Greater support for multiple warrior styles, as evidenced by multiple viable warrior classes.
7. Non-magic-using ranger
8. Viable manipulator class (Temptress)
9. Viable pirate class
10. Greater accessibility for high-level play (derived from toning down of magic dependency)
11. Armor as DR
12. Simultaneously deemphasizing possessions while incresing viability of treasure/wealth as good motivator. (High-living rules, scarcity of magic items, removal of magic item dependence.)
13. Increased tactical choice. Combat manuvers, class features, etc.
14. Grittier combat - MDT, combat manuvers, armor as DR, increased damage, etc.
15. Superior barbarian class - no longer an "I Rage" one-trick pony.
16. Removal of Alignment and replacement by superior Allegiance & Code of Honor rules
17. Reputation stat
18. Wider range of classical sword-n-sorcery archetypes support fantasy range depicted in fiction & film much better than D&D archetypes which support D&D-style fantasy well but any other style of fantasy less well.
19. Restores magic as mysterious, dangerous, and potentially corrupting force rather than special-effect driven, benign, & reliable version of D&D.
Note 1: Classes are a core component of a class/level system, not an accessory.
Some obviously impact or build off of one another, but those are the ones off of the top of my head. Some of these are straight mechanical improvements while others address "feel" aspects. The fact that Conan fixes all of these while maintaining compatibility with the majority of d20/OGL content in the market is a testament to its strength, not a weakness.
If you don't like class/level systems, d20-based games, or the Conan game that's fine. To imply that Conan is D&D with the serial numbers filed off is a gross mischaracterization.
Brilliant description of Conan's superiority over d20! I was too lazy to spell it out. Thnks for taking the time. :wink:
I would agree if he did not make appear that the word "superior" is an OBJECTIVE thing. I prefer D&D 3.0 over 3.5 and d20 Conan any time.
Now, if I say (and 50% of the people here says) that FOR US d20 DOES NOT WORK, there is NOTHING to argue. The above list does not prove ANYTHING except the tastes of the guy.
It is interesting that YET ANOTHER post addresses things which do not have anything to do with the complexity of the skill, feat and combat system.
EDIT:
just for the sake of numbers, here is the number of pages devoted to common topics between d20 Conan and SW Solomon Kane (which some people here are using straight away for Conan games). A fairly good measure of "complexity", considering that both games cover the same "ground", and SW offers the same (if not more) options than d20 Conan.
SKILLS: SW 5 pages, d20 Conan 28 pages
COMBAT: SW 18 pages, d20 Conan 36 pages
FEATS: SW 12 pages, d20 Conan 21 pages
(the effective actual difference is much higher, considering that the density of text in d20 Conan is much higher)
Give me SW any day.
rabindranath72 said:Hopefully Mongoose will offer something also to people who are willing to buy a setting, not only a bunch of stats.
Sutek said:rabindranath72 said:Hopefully Mongoose will offer something also to people who are willing to buy a setting, not only a bunch of stats.
Dude...there's like...hundreds of books, besides those published by Mongoose games, that give you the setting of Conan stories on a silver platter. You could take any number of them and then go out and get your personal favorite RPG system of choice and get going.
What is happening instead is complaining and whining about the initiative and creativity of others more adept and willing to do it for you.
Sorry, rab72, but your comment REALLY irks me, because it's the kind of attitude that I just despise. You aren't getting what you want so, obviously, what is offered is flawed, so you aren't getting what you want...
It quickly becomes circular and innane. Blame the system, blame the publisher, blame the format, but still expect yet more to be given to you.
Again, please don't take this personally. I'm just using your comment as an example of the attitude you and others have continually expressed here by those decrying the Conan game, D20 OGL and Mongoose becsue of flaws in each that are either merely percieved or easily dealt with by personal creativity.
LucaCherstich said:....Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!
Too many people have an " a priori" attitude vs D20.
Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!
It just proves something. These people like more D20 than they love the Conan setting.Half of the people in this thread (like me!) will stop buying Conan if not d20...
These people just prove they're playing the game BECAUSE it's Conan, not only because a silly set of rules (be it D20 or not...)....another half will keep on buying WHATEVER the system...