What if Conan leaves d20 for anotehr system?

[kintire]

Actually, Conan does fix the fundamental problem with 3.5, which is that it is largely unusable after level 10. It does this by removing magic, and replacing it with a magic system that does not break everything at higher levels!

 

[KemperBoyd]

Actually, Conan does fix the fundamental problem with 3.5, which is that it is largely unusable after level 10. It does this by removing magic, and replacing it with a magic system that does not break everything at higher levels!

This is the core issue, really.

Also since Conan encourages multi-classing, you end up with great multi-class characters which you never did on high levels in D&D 3.5

 

[rabindranath72]

You must first arrive at 10th level, and navigate between fights which last hours, creation of NPCs which takes hours (and will almost always be wrong) etc.

My points are completely lost, I see (I would really like to understand what magic has to do with the complexity of the system...)

Oh well, to everyone his own, I guess.

Hopefully Mongoose will offer something also to people who are willing to buy a setting, not only a bunch of stats.

 

[Clovenhoof]

My points are completely lost, I see (I would really like to understand what magic has to do with the complexity of the system...)

Magic indeed tends to draw out the game and especially combat for various reasons:
* many effects, synergies and counters require careful preparation from the DM, if he wants to offer his players a challenge they are supposed to overcome with some effort (i.e. neither freebie nor TPK-danger).
* the characters encounter a certain monster, and the players rack their brains for its weaknesses and vulnerabilities (Are those buggers vulnerable to silver or cold iron? Where is my caddy? Wizard, cast Flame Weapon!).
* lots of buffs and debuffs have to be taken into account when it comes to attack rolls and saves. These modifiers may well change several times in a single round. Suppose the Cleric casts Bless (everyone notes a +1 to attack rolls), then the Rogue attacks, then the enemy Shaman casts Curse (everyone scratches the +1 to attack rolls), than the Fighter acts -- you get the idea.

In Conan these Buffs and Debuffs are largely absent. The stats on your sheet are the stats you use. There are very few temporary modifiers. That reduces drag _a lot_.

 

[Azgulor]

Conan OGL fixes pretty much everything bad in d20.

Which would be? The feats and skills systems are there, mutatis mutandis, together with the combat system, which has been made even more complex. Incidentally, these are the main causes of concerns for the people who do not like d20.
I sincerely wonder if people who make this kind of comments has ever played D&D 3.5. 90% (or more) of the rules are the same. It's only the "accessories" (like races and classes) which differ.
Again, it's that 90% that people who do not like d20 frown upon.
Now, if you are speaking about the "feel" of D&D, that is quite a different topic, and not directly related to rules (e.g. Vancian magic).

Fixes from standard D&D:
1. Removal of dependence upon magic items
2. Removal of magic as technology
3. Removal of magic nerfing skills
4. Skills matter much more (see item above)
5. Wider range of class skills per class
6. Greater support for multiple warrior styles, as evidenced by multiple viable warrior classes.
7. Non-magic-using ranger
8. Viable manipulator class (Temptress)
9. Viable pirate class
10. Greater accessibility for high-level play (derived from toning down of magic dependency)
11. Armor as DR
12. Simultaneously deemphasizing possessions while incresing viability of treasure/wealth as good motivator. (High-living rules, scarcity of magic items, removal of magic item dependence.)
13. Increased tactical choice. Combat manuvers, class features, etc.
14. Grittier combat - MDT, combat manuvers, armor as DR, increased damage, etc.
15. Superior barbarian class - no longer an "I Rage" one-trick pony.
16. Removal of Alignment and replacement by superior Allegiance & Code of Honor rules
17. Reputation stat
18. Wider range of classical sword-n-sorcery archetypes support fantasy range depicted in fiction & film much better than D&D archetypes which support D&D-style fantasy well but any other style of fantasy less well.
19. Restores magic as mysterious, dangerous, and potentially corrupting force rather than special-effect driven, benign, & reliable version of D&D.

Note 1: Classes are a core component of a class/level system, not an accessory.

Some obviously impact or build off of one another, but those are the ones off of the top of my head. Some of these are straight mechanical improvements while others address "feel" aspects. The fact that Conan fixes all of these while maintaining compatibility with the majority of d20/OGL content in the market is a testament to its strength, not a weakness.

If you don't like class/level systems, d20-based games, or the Conan game that's fine. To imply that Conan is D&D with the serial numbers filed off is a gross mischaracterization.

 

[Azgulor]

You must first arrive at 10th level, and navigate between fights which last hours, creation of NPCs which takes hours (and will almost always be wrong) etc.

My points are completely lost, I see (I would really like to understand what magic has to do with the complexity of the system...)

Oh well, to everyone his own, I guess.

Hopefully Mongoose will offer something also to people who are willing to buy a setting, not only a bunch of stats.

If you've played/GMed a game to 10th level and have these issues, I would contend that it's a matter of system mastery on your part, not a system issue. I have yet to experience the "almost always wrong" issue you cite. From a player perspective, I have one character to focus on - I think I can handle that. From a GM perspective, major NPCs are created with TLC like a PC would be. For minor NPCs, if I'm off a skill-point or two in the final analysis, do my players know or care? Does my game suffer for it? No.

Given the lethality of the Conan game, fights don't last hours when you are proficient with the rules. Now whether you wish to become proficient with the rules is an entirely different discussion and boils down to personal taste.

If you find high-level NPCs take hours to create, I would suggest approaching them as follows: define a clear picture/vision/description of the character without stats first. I find this streamlines the process immensely. If I approach it as "I need to make up a fighter", wading through all of the options certainly mulitplies the time needed to create a character, regardless of level.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I sincerely wonder if people who make this kind of comments has ever played D&D 3.5. 90% (or more) of the rules are the same. It's only the "accessories" (like races and classes) which differ.

Just fyi, I have played D&D 3.0, I still play 3.5, and of course also Conan. Yes, the core of the rules are the same, but it's the changes that make a world of difference. Of these three, I like Conan best.

 

[rabindranath72]

I guess I have a different definition of complexity, which relates to the things that ALL people at the table use, from the GM to the players: skills, feats and combat. And these are 90% or more standard d20, with all the consequences. It is useless to argue about things which are not in the game and do not apply.

This said, I am eagerly waiting for a new Conan game which retains the feeling of the stories.

 

[KemperBoyd]

I've never found skills and feats to be problematic, to be honest. Players keep track of them, and as for NPC's they either have them or don't have them as suits me.

 

[Ranzadule]

Fixes from standard D&D:
1. Removal of dependence upon magic items
2. Removal of magic as technology
3. Removal of magic nerfing skills
4. Skills matter much more (see item above)
5. Wider range of class skills per class
6. Greater support for multiple warrior styles, as evidenced by multiple viable warrior classes.
7. Non-magic-using ranger
8. Viable manipulator class (Temptress)
9. Viable pirate class
10. Greater accessibility for high-level play (derived from toning down of magic dependency)
11. Armor as DR
12. Simultaneously deemphasizing possessions while incresing viability of treasure/wealth as good motivator. (High-living rules, scarcity of magic items, removal of magic item dependence.)
13. Increased tactical choice. Combat manuvers, class features, etc.
14. Grittier combat - MDT, combat manuvers, armor as DR, increased damage, etc.
15. Superior barbarian class - no longer an "I Rage" one-trick pony.
16. Removal of Alignment and replacement by superior Allegiance & Code of Honor rules
17. Reputation stat
18. Wider range of classical sword-n-sorcery archetypes support fantasy range depicted in fiction & film much better than D&D archetypes which support D&D-style fantasy well but any other style of fantasy less well.
19. Restores magic as mysterious, dangerous, and potentially corrupting force rather than special-effect driven, benign, & reliable version of D&D.

Note 1: Classes are a core component of a class/level system, not an accessory.

Some obviously impact or build off of one another, but those are the ones off of the top of my head. Some of these are straight mechanical improvements while others address "feel" aspects. The fact that Conan fixes all of these while maintaining compatibility with the majority of d20/OGL content in the market is a testament to its strength, not a weakness.

If you don't like class/level systems, d20-based games, or the Conan game that's fine. To imply that Conan is D&D with the serial numbers filed off is a gross mischaracterization.

Brilliant description of Conan's superiority over d20! I was too lazy to spell it out. Thnks for taking the time. :wink:

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Hmm-- violence, arguments about rules and personal animosity. I feel like I've been summoned.....;>

Seriously though if one can excuse this visitor awakening in the crypt's thoughts I think the idea is just silly. You want to add Hyborian world flavor to your campaign but don't want to buy the RPG? Then read Howard's damn works! The pastiches were only acceptable for research if no other option exists but the recent recollection of the original Howard stoories now leave no excuses. Oh hell, the appendix of the first volume has Howard's famous letter detailing the history of the Hyborian world and its component peoples and countries. Granted it's not all prechewed for you but for the gods' sake, be a man! (or woman!) Do your own research, think your own thoughts. Buck the trend of the dumbing down of the universe and read something worth reading and learn something from it. I simply refuse to be the last person left who can accomplish off-line research.....;>

 

[rabindranath72]

Fixes from standard D&D:
1. Removal of dependence upon magic items
2. Removal of magic as technology
3. Removal of magic nerfing skills
4. Skills matter much more (see item above)
5. Wider range of class skills per class
6. Greater support for multiple warrior styles, as evidenced by multiple viable warrior classes.
7. Non-magic-using ranger
8. Viable manipulator class (Temptress)
9. Viable pirate class
10. Greater accessibility for high-level play (derived from toning down of magic dependency)
11. Armor as DR
12. Simultaneously deemphasizing possessions while incresing viability of treasure/wealth as good motivator. (High-living rules, scarcity of magic items, removal of magic item dependence.)
13. Increased tactical choice. Combat manuvers, class features, etc.
14. Grittier combat - MDT, combat manuvers, armor as DR, increased damage, etc.
15. Superior barbarian class - no longer an "I Rage" one-trick pony.
16. Removal of Alignment and replacement by superior Allegiance & Code of Honor rules
17. Reputation stat
18. Wider range of classical sword-n-sorcery archetypes support fantasy range depicted in fiction & film much better than D&D archetypes which support D&D-style fantasy well but any other style of fantasy less well.
19. Restores magic as mysterious, dangerous, and potentially corrupting force rather than special-effect driven, benign, & reliable version of D&D.

Note 1: Classes are a core component of a class/level system, not an accessory.

Some obviously impact or build off of one another, but those are the ones off of the top of my head. Some of these are straight mechanical improvements while others address "feel" aspects. The fact that Conan fixes all of these while maintaining compatibility with the majority of d20/OGL content in the market is a testament to its strength, not a weakness.

If you don't like class/level systems, d20-based games, or the Conan game that's fine. To imply that Conan is D&D with the serial numbers filed off is a gross mischaracterization.

Brilliant description of Conan's superiority over d20! I was too lazy to spell it out. Thnks for taking the time. :wink:

Sure, lots of time at his disposal. I envy him, really..

I would agree if he did not make appear that the word "superior" is an OBJECTIVE thing. I prefer D&D 3.0 over 3.5 and d20 Conan any time.

Now, if I say (and 50% of the people here says) that FOR US d20 DOES NOT WORK, there is NOTHING to argue. The above list does not prove ANYTHING except the tastes of the guy.

It is interesting that YET ANOTHER post addresses things which do not have anything to do with the complexity of the skill, feat and combat system.

EDIT:
just for the sake of numbers, here is the number of pages devoted to common topics between d20 Conan and SW Solomon Kane (which some people here are using straight away for Conan games). A fairly good measure of "complexity", considering that both games cover the same "ground", and SW offers the same (if not more) options than d20 Conan.

SKILLS: SW 5 pages, d20 Conan 28 pages
COMBAT: SW 18 pages, d20 Conan 36 pages
FEATS: SW 12 pages, d20 Conan 21 pages

(the effective actual difference is much higher, considering that the density of text in d20 Conan is much higher)

Give me SW any day.

 

[Ranzadule]

SW is ok too, though I find it to be a dumbed-down version of rhe old Deadlands game I loved. Your analysis is faulty in that you continue to make this some sort of math problem. X pages of this v Y pages of that.... Conan shares the core mechanic with d20, but has all of the advantages outlined above, page counts, word counts... not withstanding.

 

[Azgulor]

Fixes from standard D&D:
1. Removal of dependence upon magic items
2. Removal of magic as technology
3. Removal of magic nerfing skills
4. Skills matter much more (see item above)
5. Wider range of class skills per class
6. Greater support for multiple warrior styles, as evidenced by multiple viable warrior classes.
7. Non-magic-using ranger
8. Viable manipulator class (Temptress)
9. Viable pirate class
10. Greater accessibility for high-level play (derived from toning down of magic dependency)
11. Armor as DR
12. Simultaneously deemphasizing possessions while incresing viability of treasure/wealth as good motivator. (High-living rules, scarcity of magic items, removal of magic item dependence.)
13. Increased tactical choice. Combat manuvers, class features, etc.
14. Grittier combat - MDT, combat manuvers, armor as DR, increased damage, etc.
15. Superior barbarian class - no longer an "I Rage" one-trick pony.
16. Removal of Alignment and replacement by superior Allegiance & Code of Honor rules
17. Reputation stat
18. Wider range of classical sword-n-sorcery archetypes support fantasy range depicted in fiction & film much better than D&D archetypes which support D&D-style fantasy well but any other style of fantasy less well.
19. Restores magic as mysterious, dangerous, and potentially corrupting force rather than special-effect driven, benign, & reliable version of D&D.

Note 1: Classes are a core component of a class/level system, not an accessory.

Some obviously impact or build off of one another, but those are the ones off of the top of my head. Some of these are straight mechanical improvements while others address "feel" aspects. The fact that Conan fixes all of these while maintaining compatibility with the majority of d20/OGL content in the market is a testament to its strength, not a weakness.

If you don't like class/level systems, d20-based games, or the Conan game that's fine. To imply that Conan is D&D with the serial numbers filed off is a gross mischaracterization.

Brilliant description of Conan's superiority over d20! I was too lazy to spell it out. Thnks for taking the time. :wink:

Sure, lots of time at his disposal. I envy him, really..

I would agree if he did not make appear that the word "superior" is an OBJECTIVE thing. I prefer D&D 3.0 over 3.5 and d20 Conan any time.

Now, if I say (and 50% of the people here says) that FOR US d20 DOES NOT WORK, there is NOTHING to argue. The above list does not prove ANYTHING except the tastes of the guy.

It is interesting that YET ANOTHER post addresses things which do not have anything to do with the complexity of the skill, feat and combat system.

EDIT:
just for the sake of numbers, here is the number of pages devoted to common topics between d20 Conan and SW Solomon Kane (which some people here are using straight away for Conan games). A fairly good measure of "complexity", considering that both games cover the same "ground", and SW offers the same (if not more) options than d20 Conan.

SKILLS: SW 5 pages, d20 Conan 28 pages
COMBAT: SW 18 pages, d20 Conan 36 pages
FEATS: SW 12 pages, d20 Conan 21 pages

(the effective actual difference is much higher, considering that the density of text in d20 Conan is much higher)

Give me SW any day.

For the record, it took me all of 5 minutes to type that post and that included the time it took me to refill my toddler's sippy cup. Envy away!

Secondly, while YOU find "complexity" in the skill, feat, and combat, I see "richness". You like rules-light. I get it. However, your preference for rules light systems is no more objective than what I like about Conan. I find rules-light systems largely uninspring, open to player abuses, or excessive GM-fiat. Am I 100% right - only insofar as myself and my players are concerned.

 

[Ranzadule]

And me...



The "G" in "RPG" stands for "game." Mechanics matter and simple mechanics leave me yawning. I love the roleplaying, but the roll-playing is fun too. Combos, synergy, specialization, all leading to the throw of the dice or the GM deeming that none is necessary, are all impoprtant elements of the game. I like the friendly competition between PC and GM and simple rules dull this too much for me.

 

[Sutek]

Hopefully Mongoose will offer something also to people who are willing to buy a setting, not only a bunch of stats.

Dude...there's like...hundreds of books, besides those published by Mongoose games, that give you the setting of Conan stories on a silver platter. You could take any number of them and then go out and get your personal favorite RPG system of choice and get going.

What is happening instead is complaining and whining about the initiative and creativity of others more adept and willing to do it for you.

Sorry, rab72, but your comment REALLY irks me, because it's the kind of attitude that I just despise. You aren't getting what you want so, obviously, what is offered is flawed, so you aren't getting what you want...

It quickly becomes circular and innane. Blame the system, blame the publisher, blame the format, but still expect yet more to be given to you.

Again, please don't take this personally. I'm just using your comment as an example of the attitude you and others have continually expressed here by those decrying the Conan game, D20 OGL and Mongoose becsue of flaws in each that are either merely percieved or easily dealt with by personal creativity.

 

[rabindranath72]

No problem Sutek Sorry if my comments seem personal, they are not at all.
It's just that I do not like the d20 implementation of Conan, and I would gladly spend my money on a game which "moves" under a different rules system, rules and setting in just one "box". I suppose I am not the only one to have this "desire", considering the essential tie in the polls.
That's all. If you people like d20, more power to you.
BTW, I am not a d20 hater at all. I actually like some d20 games and how they are implemented; mostly, they are games which came before the 3.5 "revision", namely, D&D 3.0, Wheel of Time and d20 Call of Cthulhu.

Cheers,
Antonio

 

[LucaCherstich]

Hopefully Mongoose will offer something also to people who are willing to buy a setting, not only a bunch of stats.

Dude...there's like...hundreds of books, besides those published by Mongoose games, that give you the setting of Conan stories on a silver platter. You could take any number of them and then go out and get your personal favorite RPG system of choice and get going.

What is happening instead is complaining and whining about the initiative and creativity of others more adept and willing to do it for you.

Sorry, rab72, but your comment REALLY irks me, because it's the kind of attitude that I just despise. You aren't getting what you want so, obviously, what is offered is flawed, so you aren't getting what you want...

It quickly becomes circular and innane. Blame the system, blame the publisher, blame the format, but still expect yet more to be given to you.

Again, please don't take this personally. I'm just using your comment as an example of the attitude you and others have continually expressed here by those decrying the Conan game, D20 OGL and Mongoose becsue of flaws in each that are either merely percieved or easily dealt with by personal creativity.

I agree with Sutek.
Too many people have an " a priori" attitude vs D20.
I'm not "a priori" against RUnequest, but keeping Conan a d20 product is for me a "must", otherwise no more book bought by this customer.

When I started this pool I never imagined it could reach even 11 pages!! Thus far the number of people for the first or the second answer is more or less the same.
I'm optimistic even with these results.
Half of the people in this thread (like me!) will stop buying Conan if not d20, another half will keep on buying WHATEVER the system....
...but the second answer DOES NOT automatically mean "I hate d20"...so many people who will keep on buying non-d20 Conan books are not automatically vs d20....
....Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!

 

[warzen]

....Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!

Except MGP needs to switch to a more user friendly system to extend the user base.
And I fully support them on this move.

W.

 

[Hervé]

Too many people have an " a priori" attitude vs D20.

Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!

Quite contradictory, ain't it?
I don't really want to fuel the war between D20 lovers and haters, but the fact that half the voters would like another system tend to prove something... In my thirty years or so of gaming, I've never encountered such a situation, where so many people thought the game engine didn't suit to the setting.

Half of the people in this thread (like me!) will stop buying Conan if not d20...

It just proves something. These people like more D20 than they love the Conan setting.

...another half will keep on buying WHATEVER the system...

These people just prove they're playing the game BECAUSE it's Conan, not only because a silly set of rules (be it D20 or not...).

I don't think D20 Conan is as much loved as you say. There would be no need of such a poll if it was so. I never head of people wishing to change the system when playing Warhammer, Rifts or whatever... You only see this in D20. For me it proves something. Just as the fact that the editor chose to drop the game engine to go for a more modern one... As far as I know, neither Chaosium, Ice, Palladium or White Wolf chose to abandon their game engine foe a new one. Never before a game system has been so much criticized (and not only on these forums!).

There surely must be a good reason...