What if Conan leaves d20 for anotehr system?

[LilithsThrall]

In no uncertain terms, if Conan moves to the 4e game system, I won't play it. Conan d20 has big problems and appears not to have been playtested, however converting it to a mmorpg style game system (4e) would be a colossal step in the wrong direction. It should stay with d20, but get a total rewrite of it's sorcery rules.

 

[Hervé]

It should stay with d20, but get a total rewrite of it's sorcery rules.

The Sorcery rules ar not the only things that would need rewriting. There are a lot of unbalanced things in the combat system that would need rewriting too. Check the "New approach to weapon damage topic" for instance.

I'd like to see also the skill system streamlined as I find pretty clumsy as it is, with too many modifiers coming from external situations, synergy, cultural or class abilities.

The feats would need some balancing too, as some are so more powerful than others.

 

[Demetrio]

Personally I think the skills are largely okay. I don't really like the lumping of Jump, Climb and Swim into 'Athletics' for instance. Mainly because the skills aren't actually linked in any meaningful way.

Dropping synergies would be a good idea though as they're rather tiresome to keep track of.

As regards feats, some definitely do need tweaking or in some cases just banishing to the outer darkness. The sheer number of feats can be a problem also, especially as they are spread throughout the various books. In a way I'd like to see feats grow with the character. Thus (just by way of an off the top of my head example) if you pick Cleave then its benefits are level dependent (say increasing at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th level) so you don't need to pick Great Cleave, Superduper Cleave, GoshIcancleave anything withinfivemiles Cleave etc, a single pick accrues progressive benefits as the character improves. This would help simplify the feats as each feat tree would in effect become a single improving feat.

Of course one might well want to look at how often and when feats become available were that road to be travelled.

The weak feats (skill enhancing ones) could grow. So rather than giving a flat +2 to two somewhat linked skills, the bonus increases at certain levels. Or perhaps they might double one's stat bonus to those skills.

Now it's fair to say that feats will never be perfectly balanced but some could certainly do with some beefing and others need their benefits toned down somewhat (or at least stacking of benefits from multi feats to be toned down so that one does not gain crazy bonuses)

 

[LilithsThrall]

I don't want to hijack this thread so I'm going to be brief. It was said that long lists of feats with all their prereqs makes it difficult to crreate a character and that, to fix this, feats should be put in chains. Another part of the game which suffers from long lists of prereqs is spells. They'd benefit from chains as well.

 

[Hervé]

I agree. Feat chains are handled in a better way in DD4.

You're not highjaking anything. On the contrary, your comments are welcome.

 

[Sutek]

There are no "feat chains" in 4e, Herve. There are so few feats at all, that "chains" don't even have a chance to occur. Feat pre reqs are only based on stat, race, class ability, power or what deity one worships, and no feat even requires any other feat, so they aren't linked in any way. Even the other Teirs don't require other feats, so nothing "chains" together in any way whatsoever.

You may prefer the incremental bonuses and how feats dish them out, but nothing is chained at all.

 

[Hervé]

You may prefer the incremental bonuses and how feats dish them out

That's what I meant.

 

[bradius]

I'd probably buy the sourcebooks (e.g. Turan...), but nothing else. I am too commited and have spent too much $ on D20 Conan to start up on a new system.

 

[rabindranath72]

Conan d20 has big problems and appears not to have been playtested,

I would like to make a comment here. I was part (with my players) of the playtesting group. Conan d20 has been thoroughly playtested (at least the core book) by a large group of people, over a period of many months (6 IIRC). The problems Conan d20 has are not problems due to playtesting or bad design. They are the exact same problems of any other d20 game which uses more than 80% of the SRD.

 

[rabindranath72]

no feat even requires any other feat, so they aren't linked in any way.

What??!?! Which rulebook are you referring to? There are (about) 40 feats in the AE Rulebook which depend on at least another feat. The name for these dependencies, as far as I can tell from the d20 literature, is Feat Chains/Trees or similar.

 

[Clovenhoof]

@rabin: Sutek was talking about 4E, not AE.

 

[rabindranath72]

Oh yes, I am going blind; A and 4 are so similar :lol:

 

[tneva82]

Jumping in but how well you think traveller rules could be adapted to Conan?`

Love the setting, hate the D20 system(no need to start arqument about this. I just don't like those rules. You like it, fair enough. Me I don't like them so I look other rules). Traveller rules however I like a lot.

Initial thought is they should work pretty well. Might want to change hand to hand combat rules a bit since it's of bigger importance in conan than traveller but then again maybe it's not really needed. Who knows.

Any ideas?

 

[LilithsThrall]

Conan d20 has big problems and appears not to have been playtested,

I would like to make a comment here. I was part (with my players) of the playtesting group. Conan d20 has been thoroughly playtested (at least the core book) by a large group of people, over a period of many months (6 IIRC). The problems Conan d20 has are not problems due to playtesting or bad design. They are the exact same problems of any other d20 game which uses more than 80% of the SRD.

You believe the problem is the 80% of the material which comes from the SRD? None of the Sorcery content is SRD. You think the sorcery rules are Fine as they are?

 

[Ichabod]

Do you think there are major problems with the sorcery rules?

Defensive Blast has always been odd. In 1e, it was broken. In 2e, besides often being not that useful, you have to determine timing rules which we've determined to be "whenever it's best for the sorcerer".

Other than a lot of stuff being junk, which is solved by just not taking those spells, I don't find the sorcery rules a source of problems.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Do you think there are major problems with the sorcery rules?

Defensive Blast has always been odd. In 1e, it was broken. In 2e, besides often being not that useful, you have to determine timing rules which we've determined to be "whenever it's best for the sorcerer".

Other than a lot of stuff being junk, which is solved by just not taking those spells, I don't find the sorcery rules a source of problems.

Interesting way that you put that. Yes, if you ignore all the bad parts, what's left isn't so bad. I have to agree with you. But considering just how much bad stuff there is (labyrinthine spell progression, alchemy based on silver (making it too expensive for the sorcerer levels where it's needed most and too abundant for sorcerers who need it least), spells which are useless or only worthwhile choices for just a few levels, etc.), yes, there are major problems in the sorcery rules.

 

[rabindranath72]

Conan d20 has big problems and appears not to have been playtested,

I would like to make a comment here. I was part (with my players) of the playtesting group. Conan d20 has been thoroughly playtested (at least the core book) by a large group of people, over a period of many months (6 IIRC). The problems Conan d20 has are not problems due to playtesting or bad design. They are the exact same problems of any other d20 game which uses more than 80% of the SRD.

You believe the problem is the 80% of the material which comes from the SRD? None of the Sorcery content is SRD. You think the sorcery rules are Fine as they are?

Well, part of the remaining 20% covers Sorcery, which, except for some points (e.g. Defensive Blast) which can be easily house-ruled out, IMO work fine for what they were set to do, i.e. give a "feeling" of Hyborian Sorcery.

 

[Saxon]

Hi all, it's been a while. I was just browsing the boards and saw the old debate of d20 vs. 4e. Alot of opinions, but I didn't see anyone actually talk about having played the 4e system.

So I will contribute a bit about 4e:

First off let me say I was die-hard about d20 and not going over to 4e. I had a Conan game with a few role-players and we had a great time. Then I met a group of fun guys, but they were power-gamers...who showed me just how unbalanced and breakable they could make d20. Which made it un-fun trying to battle their broken combo characters.

Life got in the way, so I stopped gaming. Then one of those guys called me to try 4e. In order to be objective about the matter I accepted. Plus they are fun to drink and game with. I played a few times a month for a few months...and here is what I found:

(I'll try to be positive, despite my personal feelings)

1) 4e is at heart a strategy game. If you prefer out manuvering others and think of the "RP" details as "fluff" then you will appreciate 4e. The combining of skill (spot & listen into perception) is an example of how 4e lumps the details into an "abstract" to speed up the flow of combat.

2) 4e is mathematically elegant. It is perfectly balanced...so much so that I felt it to be unforgiving, in that an extra +1 or +2 is a BIG difference in a role. Everything is measured out so that no matter your level, during an encounter you have about a 55% chance of success on the dice...+1 makes that 60%...which makes a difference. Resulting in the fact that everyone has to maximize everyting possible or they will be slightly behind the foes.

3) 4e makes a DM's life easy. I have been told by the DM it cuts his prep time down by 3/4. Because of the limited options available in character/monster generation, and the fact traps and terrain are created differently...it is less work to DM.

4) 4e does bring the "oh crap" factor back into monsters b/c noone has any idea what they can do or how to fight them...which I think is more b/c evrything has been reworked rather than due to the system, but as players the experience is still cool.

Otherwise I have a bunch of gripes about 4e, but that is mostly because I am a "role-player" and 4e is taking things back to the roots of D&D (the old Chainmail game). Also, I just don't like WotC training everyone like whipped slaves to play in a style that will make it easier for them to buy the D&D MMO when it comes out! But this is America, and Capitalism is one of the 3 things America does well. The other 2 being making War and coming up with convincing Cons and Scams.

P.S. My 4e DM is quite good. He is actually an authority on their forums. So I feel I have had a great view of 4e by a DM who is a skilled believer in the system. If you have any other questions about the sytem I'll try my best to answer.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I would like to make a comment here. I was part (with my players) of the playtesting group. Conan d20 has been thoroughly playtested (at least the core book) by a large group of people, over a period of many months (6 IIRC). The problems Conan d20 has are not problems due to playtesting or bad design. They are the exact same problems of any other d20 game which uses more than 80% of the SRD.

You believe the problem is the 80% of the material which comes from the SRD? None of the Sorcery content is SRD. You think the sorcery rules are Fine as they are?

Well, part of the remaining 20% covers Sorcery, which, except for some points (e.g. Defensive Blast) which can be easily house-ruled out, IMO work fine for what they were set to do, i.e. give a "feeling" of Hyborian Sorcery.

We should be able to agree that if you need a stack of houserules to make it fine, then the current rules are not fine. And I don't believe the only the sorcery rules can have a Hyborean feel is if those rules have as many problems as the current rules do.

 

[warzen]

First off let me say I was die-hard about d20 and not going over to 4e. I had a Conan game with a few role-players and we had a great time. Then I met a group of fun guys, but they were power-gamers...who showed me just how unbalanced and breakable they could make d20. Which made it un-fun trying to battle their broken combo characters.

This issue is not solved in 4E but as the "building" a character is part of the system, you'll always have "holes" that could be abused.

It's just the DM's role to sanction such attitude when the players are unable to restain themselves.

W.