What happened to the Narn???????

[Celisasu]

G'Quan vs. Omega

Damage: 55 for the G'Quan. 48 for the Omega. Slight Advantage for the G'Quan.

Crew: 70 G'Quan. 62 Omega. Slight advantage for the G'Quan.

Main Beam: 6AD for Omega. 4AD for G'Quan. Moderate advantage for the Omega. Same range and traits otherwise.

Defensive Traits: Antifighter 1 for the G'Quan. Antifighter 6 and Interceptors 3 for the Omega. Moderate to major advantage for the Omega depending on the race(a lot more useful against the Gaim with their fighter hordes for example).

Hull 6, Jump Engine, 1/45" turn, and Lumbering for both so tie on all those traits.

Troops: G'Quan 8. Omega 4. Advantage G'Quan but it's a pointless advantage that won't come in play.

Fighters: 2 Frazis for the G'Quan. 4 Thunderbolts for the Omega. Moderately advantage for the Omega.

Special Weapons(stuff that we can't quite call primary but aren't exactly secondaries either): The G'Quan has a one shot E-Mine at 6AD. The Omega has nothing comparable. Moderate advantage for the G'Quan. If it wasn't one shot his would be a major advantage.

Secondaries: The G'Quan has 10 Twin Linked all around and 6 traitless also all around. All at 8". The Omega has 8 twin linked in the forward arc at 12", 8 twin linked in the port and starboard at 10", and 4 twin linked in the rear at 10". The Omega has 4 minibeam in the P/S arcs with slow loading at 15". About equal really except in the rear arc where the G'Quan has a moderate edge. The G'Quan throws out slightly more AD but this is countered by the Omega's greater range and the fact that it has a nastier P/S arc against anything except Hull 4(which the G'Quan isn't going to be seeing much of at Battle and War level engagements).

Speed: G'Quan 6, Omega 7. Minor advantage to the Omega. Oddly, with it's shorter range guns the G'Quan would've benifited from having the higher speed while the Omega with it's longer range weapons probably would've prefered being slower to get in more shots with it's 6AD beam before engaging with secondaries.


Note that none of this takes in account supporting ships.

 

[Ripple]

I really don't understand either Katadder or Triggy's posts.

The G'Quan is not better up close than the Omega. Your talking 2 dice of twin link difference and six vanilla vs 4 mini-beam (call it 2 due to slow loading). Against hull 5 or six those mini-beam are getting the same or better hits than the vanilla dice. Add in the REAR beam which is not even mentioned above and the Omega becomes the better brawler, as it's beam comes back into the fight after the first pass. Never mind whether the range advantage matters.

The T-Bolts are being called a minor advantage, but its huge. They can fight from outside of anti-fighter range, you might want to hold them through the first e-mine...or maybe not given when launching happens now.

Add in interceptors, which are common as dirt now that fighters can do the job, and the G'Quan just isn't nearly as good.

I'm not discounting the e-mine or underestimating it. It's cool, but it also means your not closing blast doors, something the omega gets to do all the way into short range. It's not so cool that I can discount the fighter disparity, or the rear beam.

I've played a lot of Narn fights lately, and the only ones I've won I avoided the G'Quan and went with the winning tickets, G'Vrahn, Dag'Kar, Var'nic and the Ka'toc/T'Rakk combos...sprinkle with Sho'Kov for boresighting.

(Katadder brought up bases size from other threads...go look again at a lot of those complaints. It's not about being forced away from the enemy a lot of the time, but your friends, so that you cannot use close formations to concentrate firepower.

Also, small fast ships can close range very easily if THEY want to, big slow moving lumbering hulks cannot. Since most small ships won't want to be that close to a G'Quon unless they have interceptors, the range can be an issue. Avoiding twelve to fifteen is much harder as it's about area as much as linear range against a lot of small, fast ships.)

Ripple

 

[Celisasu]

Completely forgot that rear beam. Oops. And it's just as powerful as the G'Quan's forward beam. Now granted you might be trying to aim your 6AD beam at something else in which case that 4AD won't come into play unless your opponent does a very poor job of placing his ships, but if there's not a good target once you end up with something behind you there's no reason not to turn so that it's in the line of that gun. That's a definate advantage for the Omega, especially with 30" range.

As for the T-Bolts, really any fighter isn't going to have a problem getting into range with the G'Quan. Even fighters that need to come into AF range. With only 1 AF it's not like the G'Quan is this horrendous fighter killing threat. I'd probably still remain out of range(2 traitless AD aren't going to do much to a Hull 6 ship) but as opposed to the Omega where flying your T-Bolts in is guaranteed to see some losses, it's most definately not true against the G'Quan. They're an advantage to have in battle compared to the two Frazis of the G'Quan but I don't see them as a major advantage as there are only four flights. It's better than a 2 to 1 advantage as the T-Bolt is a superior fighter to the Frazi and for a lower priority ship this would be a huge advantage but for a Battle level hull I only see it as a small one. Of course this is combined with a lot of other advantages which still leaves the Omega(in my eyes at least) as a noticably superior ship to the G'Quan.

 

[inq101]

Omega G'Quan comparisons are not the best situation. The Omega is a multi-purpose vessel that can fill the roles of a battleship, dreadnaught, line ship or a carrier (not necessarily fill the role well). The problem is that the Omega is about as good as the G'Quan at doing the G'Quans job (Battleship/line ship) AND can do all the other stuff as well.

p.s. To me a battleship is something that is designed to kill big ships (battle or higher PL), a dreadnaught is somthing like the Nova that can trade fire at short range and kill smaler ships and a line ship is something that is designed to hold ground.

 

[katadder]

Troops: G'Quan 8. Omega 4. Advantage G'Quan but it's a pointless advantage that won't come in play.

lol you mention the Gaim in defensive options but then say troops wont come into play? have you played 2e? boarding actions are alot more common these days, especially against lumbering ships and more so when playing the already mentioned Gaim.

 

[H]

I don't think this will ever be agreed. we have one side who believe Dice are more important, and another who believe traits are. Fair play, stick by your guns and all that. personally, I've seen a much better fan derived battle ship for the narn, so I hope that becomes official.. (ok, I think it's better but i am just one man damnit!)

 

[Triggy]

I really don't understand either Katadder or Triggy's posts.

The G'Quan is not better up close than the Omega. Your talking 2 dice of twin link difference and six vanilla vs 4 mini-beam (call it 2 due to slow loading). Against hull 5 or six those mini-beam are getting the same or better hits than the vanilla dice.

Ripple

This particular point is interesting as the G'Quan does 3 points more damage vs a hull 5 ship that the Omega does, which is significant when the rest of the weapons only do 4 points in the first place. Compare this to the boresighted beam where, if you get to fire it on your target of choice then 6AD does 4 points more damage on average than the 4AD beam of the G'Quan. Hardly light years ahead...

 

[H]

I really don't understand either Katadder or Triggy's posts.

The G'Quan is not better up close than the Omega. Your talking 2 dice of twin link difference and six vanilla vs 4 mini-beam (call it 2 due to slow loading). Against hull 5 or six those mini-beam are getting the same or better hits than the vanilla dice.

Ripple

This particular point is interesting as the G'Quan does 3 points more damage vs a hull 5 ship that the Omega does, which is significant when the rest of the weapons only do 4 points in the first place. Compare this to the boresighted beam where, if you get to fire it on your target of choice then 6AD does 4 points more damage on average than the 4AD beam of the G'Quan. Hardly light years ahead...

so what you are saying here, is that the Omega is better? ;-)

 

[Triggy]

I really don't understand either Katadder or Triggy's posts.

The G'Quan is not better up close than the Omega. Your talking 2 dice of twin link difference and six vanilla vs 4 mini-beam (call it 2 due to slow loading). Against hull 5 or six those mini-beam are getting the same or better hits than the vanilla dice.

Ripple

This particular point is interesting as the G'Quan does 3 points more damage vs a hull 5 ship that the Omega does, which is significant when the rest of the weapons only do 4 points in the first place. Compare this to the boresighted beam where, if you get to fire it on your target of choice then 6AD does 4 points more damage on average than the 4AD beam of the G'Quan. Hardly light years ahead...

so what you are saying here, is that the Omega is better? ;-)

He he, just pointing out that its better beam isn't such a huge advantage compared to the other differences between the ships as some would like to believe. Beams are good, but not that good.

 

[Hans Olo]

If Beams are not that big a difference why not simply add two dice to the G'Quans Beam? 8)
Who knows maybe no one would recognize it.
With the 2ed beams two dice are more than a marginal difference.

 

[Da Boss]

14 dice hit from my Liati on Saturday - yes its 4AD but hit with 2 on first roll, then 1 then kept hitting all the way on that one dice - I think that was the third shot that game..............

Beams - esp long range ones - give you that chance to score a massive hit - before you even factor in criticals - yes they sometimes miss - but 6 dice is a very good number to avoid that.................

still like I said not a Narn player but it has seemed weak when I faced it...............or when I saw it being used.

 

[inq101]

14 dice hit from my Liati on Saturday - yes its 4AD but hit with 2 on first roll, then 1 then kept hitting all the way on that one dice - I think that was the third shot that game...............

I guess that balances out with my game. 4 pt battle, EA Crusade vs Narn. Total damage done by beam weapons 14 over 8 turns.

 

[katadder]

If Beams are not that big a difference why not simply add two dice to the G'Quans Beam? 8)
Who knows maybe no one would recognize it.
With the 2ed beams two dice are more than a marginal difference.

and then stick e-mines on an omega? hell lets make all the ships the same just use differant models. then no one can complain

personally, I've seen a much better fan derived battle ship for the narn, so I hope that becomes official.. (ok, I think it's better but i am just one man damnit!)

is that mine hiffano? or you seen another one?

 

[H]

If Beams are not that big a difference why not simply add two dice to the G'Quans Beam? 8)
Who knows maybe no one would recognize it.
With the 2ed beams two dice are more than a marginal difference.

and then stick e-mines on an omega? hell lets make all the ships the same just use differant models. then no one can complain

personally, I've seen a much better fan derived battle ship for the narn, so I hope that becomes official.. (ok, I think it's better but i am just one man damnit!)

is that mine hiffano? or you seen another one?

it was yours, wasn't sure if you wanted it broadcasting yet though

 

[Triggy]

If Beams are not that big a difference why not simply add two dice to the G'Quans Beam? 8)
Who knows maybe no one would recognize it.
With the 2ed beams two dice are more than a marginal difference.

I never said they were marginal, I just said they weren't outright game breakers. I was using beams to demonstrate that the G'Quan actually had very good firepower close up.

Every time I say beams aren't awesome, somebody mentions a massive beam hit they've had. Let me reiterate, beams are good but they are (extremely) unpredictable. Standard weapons are still really good and also a lot more reliable (this is generally better than not to be, unless you need a fluke game-winning shot!).

I think hiffano is right that some people will continue to believe the Omega is better and others will think they're similar in ability and frankly it doesn't really matter to me. My main point to argue against was Celisasu's assertion that the choice is a no-brainer. If people have a preference then great, go for it and show they're right on the battlefield but I for one don't think there is much difference in overall balance.

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm sorry about that I was just trying to say that beams are potential ship killers before crits - were as normal guns are not. Also that 6AD means you should get the vital few hits to get you dice rolling- and often once they start they don't stop. 4 or less (as you say) often can miss. Stalkers and other beam can be brilliant -but only if it gets that beam hit. I know you have said an extra dice may be a good idea for the Stlaker - it may be that the GQuon could do with the same? Or not I'm not passionate about this - unlike other things..........

 

[Triggy]

Hmm sorry about that I was just trying to say that beams are potential ship killers before crits - were as normal guns are not. Also that 6AD means you should get the vital few hits to get you dice rolling- and often once they start they don't stop. 4 or less (as you say) often can miss. Stalkers and other beam can be brilliant -but only if it gets that beam hit. I know you have said an extra dice may be a good idea for the Stlaker - it may be that the GQuon could do with the same? Or not I'm not passionate about this - unlike other things..........

Don't worry, I didn't mean to have a go I simply dislike it when people use examples of big hits as an example of normal beam hits (I know you weren't doing this!)

Agreed, there are far bigger worries of ship balance out there. My top three (except for the Gaim, my only three?) would be:
Demos
Shadow Fighter
Bimith

 

[H]

Hmm sorry about that I was just trying to say that beams are potential ship killers before crits - were as normal guns are not. Also that 6AD means you should get the vital few hits to get you dice rolling- and often once they start they don't stop. 4 or less (as you say) often can miss. Stalkers and other beam can be brilliant -but only if it gets that beam hit. I know you have said an extra dice may be a good idea for the Stlaker - it may be that the GQuon could do with the same? Or not I'm not passionate about this - unlike other things..........

Don't worry, I didn't mean to have a go I simply dislike it when people use examples of big hits as an example of normal beam hits (I know you weren't doing this!)

Agreed, there are far bigger worries of ship balance out there. My top three (except for the Gaim, my only three?) would be:
Demos
Shadow Fighter
Bimith

Amen on the Demos.
agreed on the shadow fighter, and still not sure on the Bimith as I have yet to see it in action. I did also air concerns about the var'nic in playtest, but given that mine rarely last a battle these days i'm not concerned any more!!

 

[Da Boss]

wierd thing is they are all quite simple fixes IMHO

Demos drop the AD to 8
Shadow Fighter make it Hull 6, loose the shields and make it 3 per flight (or similar)
Bimith - maybe loose lumbering and give it a bit more speed?

ok so two are simple fixes few disagree, sad that they are not going to change at present?

 

[H]

wierd thing is they are all quite simple fixes IMHO

Demos drop the AD to 8
Shadow Fighter make it Hull 6, loose the shields and make it 3 per flight (or similar)
Bimith - maybe loose lumbering and give it a bit more speed?

ok so two are simple fixes few disagree, sad that they are not going to change at present?

actually, I would just allow the shield to work v antifighter, and um, somehow in a dogfight?!