actionman
Emperor Mongoose
It's more than that. It describes a large network of production facilities, resources extraction industries, physical infrastructure, service industries, and so on, instead of a single factory that can produce a good.
What does TL mean?
- Thread starter MasterGwydion
- Start date
It's more than that. It describes a large network of production facilities, resources extraction industries, physical infrastructure, service industries, and so on, instead of a single factory that can produce a good.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Bingo
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
Absolutely. I suspect that real-life Technology Level is inextricably entwined with Population.
Higher TL means more areas of specialization -- 200 years ago Terra had Physicists, but none specialized in Quantum Mechanics, General Relativity, or Loop Quantum Gravity. There were also no television repairmen, Java coders, network administrators, or etc. So, the higher the TL goes, the more specialties that laborers and theoreticians must be divided into. To be able to maintain a competent workforce, the workforce (and their trainers, and their support) has to be larger.
Automation throws a goodly portion of this out the window of course; but some of it is just shifting the required population from living beings to robots. Being able to support local TL requires a certain Population, but the game does not tie the two together in any way -- which is just yet one more way that Traveller does not simulate the real world.
Keep in mind that in 1977 when the UPP was thought up, the 3rd Imperium didn't exist, and even the sci-fi writers of the day couldn't dream up something as useful as a modern cell phone, never mind an magic automated super factory.
Low TL worlds also make a lot more sense in a post-super power universe, or one were the SP is very far away.
As the gentleman who lives in Honduras pointed out, they get everything the rest of the western world gets...as long as international shipping continues to be a thing.
Low TL worlds also make a lot more sense in a post-super power universe, or one were the SP is very far away.
As the gentleman who lives in Honduras pointed out, they get everything the rest of the western world gets...as long as international shipping continues to be a thing.
ross
Cosmic Mongoose
That’s actually a pretty elegant solution.
ross
Cosmic Mongoose
The larger issue is that the technology systems both foundational and those added over time in Traveller are broken. We are generally just spackling the Titanic. I think that newer games using the mechanics, like the forthcoming Pioneer, will have much more reasonable technology system.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You can be rich, and afford to import everything, including expatriates that actually run the place.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Rich and Poor Worlds don't seem to actually describe wealth. They describe Atmosphere, Hydrology, and Population. Neither have a TL requirement either.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Are you sure about this? What about a brand-new colony with 2,000 colonists and a TL-15 Seed Factory? Is that not a TL-15 world?
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
No, that is an example of 'high tech items brought in from outside' until it can support itself with locally-produced TL-15 goods. Also note the idea behind the 'colony' label implies that the world is not self supporting.
Just one TL-15 seed factory is going to be a production bottleneck, and there is no redundancy or resilience. Sure, the factory might be able to produce sticks of colored chalk for the chalkboards at the elementary school, or 9-ply scented toilet-paper, or a hyper-luxury grav-car for the governors girlfriend -- but while it is doing so it is not producing life support supplies, or repair parts & spares for the powerplant, or mining equipment, or any of the parts required to make other factories.
As a referee, I would tend to rule that a single TL-15 manufacturing facility actually could not produce all of the above items -- it is not a Fabber, and (if it were) then the Fabber would be producing (at best) TL-13 goods. The colony needs to build the TL-15 Manufacturing Facilities to produce (a very generous minimum of one MF per product) all the above stuff -- ie. "a large network of production facilities, resources extraction industries, physical infrastructure, service industries, and so on...."
[Edit:] This comes back to my contention that the Technology Level of a world depends on the Population. Take your 2000 colonists -- every man, woman, and child -- and grant that each of them is capable of overseeing the automated legions which make up a single Manufacturing Facility. Now compare that to the number of types of goods that a TL-15 society needs to be producing, not just water-filters, CO2 scrubbers, piping, fiber optic cabling, or 'computer chips', but also every item on the shelf at the big-box store, and every component that goes into the vehicles, smart-phones, and etc. 2000 people is certainly not enough; and in this extreme example of 'even the infants work', nobody is teaching the required skills to the next generation of workers, nobody is doing the administrative or management work for the colony, nobody is doing the health-care for anyone else, and so on.
Tech Level requires population. [/Edit]
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MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Bingo. The point is that the seed place cannot be created on that planet. It takes a TL 15 infrastructure to make the factory
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Really? How is the 3rd Imperium supporting the Foreven Project from hundreds of parsecs away. It is a colonization process with no further support. They are not even part of the 3rd Imperium. The American "Colonies" were self-supporting. The parent government took resources from their colonies, not the other way around.
Or it could produce robots and more factories. If you produce stupid things, I agree the colony will not survive.
No. It produces the robots and the manufacturing plants which build all of the TL-15 stuff that the world needs. All built on world. That is the whole point of a seed factory. To be self-sufficient. Read the write up for it. You don't need a TL-15 robot to build TL-15 buildings.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
By being a poorly thought out plot device?
The American Colonies depended on imports of manufactured goods and labor.
It is not 'producing stupid things', it is producing things which people might reasonably expect to be available on a TL-15 world. If those goods are not available, then the world is not meeting its' needs from local production -- ergo, it is not a TL-15 world. It will be, once all the other manufacturing infrastructure is built.
The TL-13 Hive Queen has an On-board Fabber -- which can produce items and materiel up to TL-11. The Hive Queen cannot reproduce itself; it must build a TL-13 Manufacturing Facility (and all the supporting facilities that it requires) or a TL-15 Fabrication Chamber (and the much shorter list of supporting facilities that it requires) to do so. It is not clear, and I am not convinced that the Mongeese put any thought into, what the maximum TL that can result from the activities of a single Hive Queen may be.
Until I see otherwise, I will contend that a single Hive Queen (with access to sufficient schematics and production information, which is not free, and occupies bandwidth) can (eventually) build the infrastructure and facilities to support a TL-11 society.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
So, until then, is it your contention that it would be a TL-0 world?
Once it builds TL-11 robots, those robots can build any TL of infrastructure. All of the raw materials are sourced through the Hive Queen until it builds a standalone Mineral Refinery, Smelter, and Mining Drones.
You are incorrect here. Storage Bandwidth is unlimited in Traveller. Only the programs being run require bandwidth. So, you can store every blueprint ever written in the history of the human race and it still uses zero Bandwidth.
Humans can build TL-15 societies. What TL are humans? TL-0? If a human can physically build something from a blueprint, then a robot should also be able to build something from a blueprint.
I can go online now and get access to any blueprint in the US Patent Office that is over 100 years old, with some exceptions. Get the blueprints from Vincennes. They have been TL-15 for 300 years. Should be cheap there.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
What is their local production capable of supporting? If they cannot build (and meet local demand for) TL-15 items, then they are not TL-15.
That is NOT clear. TL-12 Manufacturing Facilities require TL-12 parts, tools, and supplies. Increasing the TL of a world is not defined in the MgT2e rules that I am aware of; so the time, effort, material, and other requirements to go from TL-11 Manufacturing Plants to TL-12 Manufacturing Plants is undefined. Suffice to say that it is not trivial; and it does not suit the game to allow them to be trivial.
'Storage Bandwidth is unlimited in Traveller' until it is not. There are several instances where storage needs are expressed in bandwidth, and specified as being both important and limited. 'Brain Tapes' are one example; and Wafer-Jacks sometimes seem to fall into this nebulous region as well. And those blueprints cost money, at a rough first-approximation they might be priced similarly to the cost of creating blueprints for ships.
A Naked Human is TL-0, yes. A Naked Human (or even one with TL-1 tools) is not building a TL-15 Fabber from scratch; building high tech devices requires high tech tools, materials, and skills.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
If they can build TL-15 factories, then TL-15
Nowhere does it say meet local demand as a requirement for TL. It just says what can be manufactured locally. See the very first thing posted on this thread.
I found this while scrapping through Hard Times. Thought it might help with defining TL.
MGt, no, but I do have published rules for it if you care.
You mean there are exceptions that are explicitly stated? Or do you mean that is the Bandwidth those programs require when being run on those devices (Brain Tapes and Wafer Jacks)? Or do you mean that those writers had no idea that this line existed in the CRB on page 110?
The Robot Handbook has the same rule violation. Saying it requires 32 Bandwidth to store in computer memory, but Bandwidth is processing power, not memory. That is like saying I need 160 horsepower to fill my gas tank. lol
I have a bit of experience with this before I retired. What TL is a plank of wood? Can I no longer make a wood floor in a TL-15 house because I am not using TL-15 tools? We can build cutting-edge medical buildings (TL-7/8) and My guys never use more than a TL-5 bulldozer and crane. Does that mean that the building is TL-5 or TL-7/8? How about concrete? What TL is that? The Romans used it. We still use it. What TL is rebar? TL-4 or 5 maybe? Does it magically become a higher TL if it is used in a TL-9 airport runway?
All high-tech buildings are built with lower tech materials.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I need to build a TL15 Hive Queen (TL15 Enhanced Fabricator) and see how much it is. Shouldn’t be much more. Or a TL16 version with a prototype Superior Fab.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Darrian is an interesting case.
Nominally technological level sixteen.
But, what exactly can they manufacture?
Nominally technological level sixteen.
But, what exactly can they manufacture?
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
According to all the descriptions they have TL 16 relics but can no longer manufacture anything at that TL and are really TL 15.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
As far as I know you are correct. Meaning that they should not be considered TL-16.
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