What changes would YOU make to Conan Second Edition?

[Netherek]

Ok, I am going to be as nice as possible about but excuse me for getting sounding condescending or angry but here it goes:

1. Leave Defensive Blast alone. "I'm a Scholar, my spells take forever to cast, give me attacks of opportunity against me, I have no fighting skills, no good weapon training, I can be resisted by the easiest of feats and I am the only class that can be corrupted. But I have a cool blast for protection that wipes out my ability to cast any more spells." Let the guy live. At low levels and unprepared most characters could take it and live, but if you are dumb enough to get that close and not have a good ability to move out of the way, then it's your tail.

2. Borderer is fine, he is a exloring, wild woodsman with the ability to two-weapon well or range something. He is the nature guy and does a fine job of it.

3. Poisons and stuff I agree with need revamping.

4. Weapon damage is good. they need to drop stuff cause this is a brutal world. You can't take the raging barabrian with the greatsword, run.

5. Sneak Attack specialty for thieves is good. Just lower the amount of weapons they can use. Plus do you know how many times my barbarian has spotted thieves before they could sneak?

6. As for this "add this from DnD" or "ability from DnD we should use" that, leave DnD out of Conan. It has no place in the game. DnD is so strict over stuff you need slide rulers and specialized calculators to figure bonuses, penalties, class and special abilities out.

7. Combat Man.s are cool. Let the players keep track of them and if they forget they have them and can use them, too bad for them. It's nice to basically have a free feat instead of being stuck to only waiting every few levels and not being allowed to have certain things, while combat man.s add flavor and my players love them.

Sorry bout the rant, but that is my 2 cents. Take it how you like.

1. DB is broken, and has no precedence in Conan. The Scholar was access to alchemy, and some spells that would do just fine. DB is soooo DnD that it's sick. It's a Blast of Fire.

2. I agree for the most part. I suggest that adding Camouflage from the Ranger class it's very similar to would be appopriate as it allows use of hide in any terrain regardless of colour. It doesn't do anything else, and cannot be used while observed. This is nature oriented and fits the class concept.

3. Agreed

4. I agree with that one. I actually think the Warhammer and the Bec-de-Corbin could use a die step increase. Other than that, I think the weapons are fine as is.

5. SA is broken. The way it's described is that you target vital for lethality, hence the target needs to be living and have discernable vitals. My proposal fits that. The current does not. It is a damage bonus that is factored before DR, so if you do more than 20 points of damage after taking the DR into account you damage armour. This means that a 15 level thief using a dagger can destroy/damage Plate armour. This shouldn't be the case, as no one else (except maybe a pirate) can accomplish this.

6. The DnD SRD rules that were left out should be included. Granted, most of them have been brought in with the Fiercest supplement, they should be in the core rules.

7. Totally agree there, I think there should be more of these.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

First off, Samagee, I agree with you wholly on your stance.

As for defensive blast and opportunistic sacrifice, first you need to be at least level 6 to gain Opportunistic Sacrifice.

Second, after the first blast, if anything is left standing won't have much HP to really give much PP to the sorcerer let alone give him enough to get off another powerful blast.

Third, sorcerers are first to be targeted and destroyed in most adventures due to fear of their magics. Most traveling scholarts who get up high enough to earn that ability will be just as nasty as a twice or more attacking, Cleaving Barbarian but with less HP and less fighting skills. Most monsters and opponents of the equivalent level will be able to make fort saves to only have to take half.

Any GM who knows of a sorcerer in the party who would take this combo should just prepare for it. It's a 10 ft radius, which means to have sniper's, opponents with Mobility or Flyby Attack or other sorcerers. And if the GM puts a sorcerer in the game with the same combo, you don't have to use it.

Some would argue that DnD's Fireball or such spells are just as powerful also, but think about what this poor guy in robes has to fight back. Add onto that that most DnD wizards don't get corruption for sacrificing and evil magics and Defensive Blast is really a last shot hail mary defensive move.

And if there is still problems with it, fatigue the sorcerer or give a reflex save or just keep him from using it again in the same round. Bu to take it away would severely hurt the sorcerer's chances of survival in the brutal Conan world.

 

[Majestic7]

Second, after the first blast, if anything is left standing won't have much HP to really give much PP to the sorcerer let alone give him enough to get off another powerful blast.

I guess the problem is massive damage combined with opportunist sacrifice - a sorcerer with, say, eight power points has a good chance of causing over 20 points of damage, causing massive damage. Massive damage in turn has a good chance of killing at least a few of the affected enemies.

 

[Daz]

Defensive blast is used (despite being completely alien to the fiction) because sorcerers die like flies otherwise.

So if the problem is sorcerers dying like flies, fix that by upping their defensive abilities a bit rather than putting something that is silly from a RP-perspective.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

But if you up a sorcerer's defense, he isn't a sorcerer anymore, he is a combatant, trained warrior, instead of a lore seeking scholar-nerd.

A thief can sneak attack a slaughter someone with a well-placed strike, a Barbarian can two-handed greatsword power attack improved critical a man down in one hack. A Borderer can slice and dice someone down while a nomad can perforate you with arrows before you even know where he is. And a Noble can talk a king into sending an army after you with the right skills and high attributes. And all of them can fight, while the scholar studies. Give them something to help them out.

Beisdes, cramped hallway, 5 or more baddies and a defensive blast will kill the party too, so you have to watch where and how you use it to save your sorcerer or that group won't want you around no more.

 

[Krushnak]

it's all about your low level sorcery style choices. if you choose curses or counterspells you shouldnt expect to be able to hurt too many people with direct damage so then why the hell can you summon fire around yourself? as a recommendation i always say start of with prestigitation. being able to launch anything in the room at your attacker is the kind of defense a sorceror in conan should use. not fire nova. also the minor legerdemain you can do with the basic prestigitation spell should definately be enough to force the majority of people to make fear of the unknown checks and run away screaming 'WITCH!" at the top of their lungs.

 

[Ashigaru]

I'd like Fate points to be useful in a wider variety of situations. Maybe they could be used for a bonus to a single roll, or allow a reroll of a failed one. As it is, my players tend to just hoard them for use as Left for Dead points.

I agree that the SRD rules introduced in the supplements (diseases, traps, etc.) should be collected in the rulebook, or at least brought together in one GM's Guide-style volume. Especially the various character status conditions (nauseated, stunned, etc.). Right now the SRD additions to Conan are scattered over a bunch of books, and it's difficult to keep track of what is printed in which book.

I'd like more low level Combat Maneuvers. Most of the time the pre-requisites (especially for the ones in the core book) are too high for them to see any use in beginning level games. I've run Conan for about five months, and Combat Maneuvers haven't been used once. They're neat conceptually, but I'd prefer they were incorporated into the system a little more fully. A lot of the current game's feats would be better off as Combat Maneuvers instead.

It's a real hassle designing mid- to high-level Scholar NPCs because of all the sorcery style pre-requisites. Most spells seem to depend on level, Magic Attack Bonus, skill ranks, other spells, and even feats. I can understand making the world-shattering magic hard to come by, but currently everything is too weblike and inter-connected.

Most of all, I want Mongoose to edit the HELL out of this book, so we can all avoid another first printing debacle. The Atlantean Edition was a marked improvement, but there were still some weird bits (missing Zingaran languages, "The Nature of the Hyborian Age - Emphatically not.", etc.). Including the pocket version, I own three different versions of the Conan rulebook. I'm not opposed to the idea of a second edition rulebook, but I want it to be a clean product that doesn't require lengthy errata sheets or a second revised printing.

 

[Daz]

You need to have both mechanical balance and appropriate flavor.

Defensive blast is horrible for appropriate flavor and has problems when it comes to mechanical balance.

Upping scholar defense would be good for mechanical balance and isn't a violance of appropriate flavor (there's plenty of sorcerers dodging around in the Conan stories).

Alternatively putting some oomph into Scholar magic at low levels wouldn't hurt either.

But scholars going nova is just silly, it goes against everything that Conan magic should be about and leads to some mechanical messes on top of that.

 

[Daz]

Also the list of spells in the Core book is pretty pathetically short, there's all kinds of cool stuff that sorcerers should be able to do that aren't in it.

For my Norse campaign I'm making up a mixed/matched/homebrewed selection of 100 spells that at least vaguely fit Norse mythology and I think that a number of spells that's much less than that would be giving scholars a bit of a shaft.

 

[Trodax]

- revise the skill list to at least DnD 3.5 (while I would prefer an even more advanced list, such as is found in Iron Heroes or the MnM Masterminds manual, that might be too dramatic of a change, without other things changing as well)

I would really, really love to see a simplification of the skill list; Stealth instead of Hide and Move Silently, and Perception instead of Listen and Spot, for example (they did exactly this in the Lone Wolf game). As you say, that might be too an extreme change, though.

Further, in response to Trodax's comment about modifying the rules a bit being necessary to effect this change, that is simple enough - per the Atlantean Changes doc on this site, the bonus for Fighting Defensively and Total Defense is a circumstance bonus, not a dodge bonus, and is therefore not lost when flatfooted/feinted, and the shield bonus can simply be made a circumstance bonus as well (which makes perfect sense really, it is helping you "dodge" per se, it is providing a circumstance in which things are blocked from hitting you).

But having the shield bonus apply to Dodge as well as Parry would seriously shift the balance between the two defenses. As it is now, Dodge is good because it helps against ranged attacks and Parry is good because it is easier to get it up higher than Dodge (by using a shield). If shields added their bonus to both Dodge and Parry, the Dodge-heavy classes (Barbarian, Pirate) would gain a lot. I don't like it.

EDIT: Forget this, I noticed that the shield discussion now has its own thread.

Well Two Handed Weapons getting 1.5x damage is to match it up with a main hand attack having 1x damage and the off hand getting .5x damage.

In D&D it makes perfect sense; a guy with a greatsword and a guy with two shortswords will be on average dealing the exact same damage over time. In Conan, though, because armor gives DR and massive damage is a serious factor, there is a great advantage for the guy dealing a lot of damage in one hit.

If I could decide I would probably do it like this:
- Remove the 0.5xStr for off-hand weapons (it's not really a big deal but would give a slight boost to the two-weapon fighter).
- Keep the 1.5xStr for two-handed weapons (without it there is no point in tossing your shield and gripping your broadsword in two hands, which I think there should be).
- Instead slightly lower the base damage of the two-handed weapons as I noted in my first post (about 2d8 instead of 2d10 for bardiche/greatsword).
- The 2x damage for Power Attacking with two-handers I'd keep (without it the relative damage from Power Attack will be very small - if you're dealing 2d10+6 with your greatsword already, there isn't much incentive to go for a couple of few extra points from PA).
- Remove the 0x damage for Power Attacking with light weapons (because I think it's cool to smash a dagger into someones skull ( :twisted: ), and it would also give a boost to the two-weapon fighter).

Shields giving a quick and easy modifier to defence is fairly slick. Rolling D20 to hit, then D100 for the miss chance and then the damage dice just seems a bit too much to me.

As a slight aside I really dislike the concealment rules anyway because it does introduce that extra level of rolling (rolling different dice at that too) and it isn't affected by either the concealed or the attackers skills (well beyond actually making the hit anyway).

I absolutely agree with this. I never liked that extra d100 roll either.

I do wonder if we'll see the 2nd edition begin to make some choices between becoming crunchier and more simulationist or faster and more abstract. D20 will always be a fairly heavy system but a lot could be done to lighten it.

I'm hoping for a lighter version rather than more rules as well.

1. Sneak Attacks must inflict damage to opponent (bypass armour) before factoring bonus damage, and that SA damage doesn't affect armour. As it stands right now thieves mysteriously become power houses if your guard is down. A high level thief using a dagger can technically damage plate with a sneak attack.

I like the idea, but the "problem" is that it will make it much better to sneak attack with heavier weapons rather than just a dagger (I like Thieves to be deadly with daggers).

12. Don't invalidate the Hyboria's F series.

I think it will be hard to keep that series 100% up to date. If they're planning on doing any form of alteration to the classes (which I think they should in some cases), the multiclass writeups will become somewhat invalidated. There is plenty of other nice stuff in the Hyboria F books though, so I don't see this as a problem.

- i still dont see why some of you people insist on nerfing 2handed wpns? they are supposed to be utterly devestating as in 1 hit 1 kill.

The problem I have with two-handers isn't that they are deadly per se, but rather that the difference when compared to other weapons (such as a broadsword) is too great.
I've had plenty of combats where the guy with the two-hander is really the deciding factor; the guys armed with normal weapons are taking down a foe every other turn perhaps, while the bardiche-wielder is cleaving through a couple of enemies every turn. In the end it's turned out that the actions of the guys with normal weapons haven't been all that important, it's always a greater blow to the party as a whole when the bardiche-wielder misses an attack or gets knocked unconscious. I don't like this.
Anyway, that's my experience, different people seem to have quite different views on this.


Phew, this is turning out to be a massive thread I think. Many of the things discussed here have had huge threads of discussion all on their own (Defensive Blast, two-handed weapons, sneak attack). Perhaps we should try to keep the discussion down to a minimum (and perhaps start side threads) to keep things manageable.
I do think a lot of good ideas are being brought up here, though, and it will hopefully give the Mongoose chaps something to look through if they want ideas for changes.

 

[Trodax]

I'd like Fate points to be useful in a wider variety of situations. Maybe they could be used for a bonus to a single roll, or allow a reroll of a failed one. As it is, my players tend to just hoard them for use as Left for Dead points.

This is a very good idea that I agree with.

Most of all, I want Mongoose to edit the HELL out of this book, so we can all avoid another first printing debacle.

One way to do it would be to release it as a (cheap) PDF a couple of months before the printed version. That would give us fans time to read through it and note down errors that could then be fixed in the printed book. Green Ronin has used this idea for a lot of their stuff and it seems pretty successful.

As I'm not really a fan of buying both a PDF and printed book, I think a very nice way of doing it would be to offer a free PDF a couple of months in advance to all customers who preordered the book.

 

[Padre]

I'd like separate Player and GM corebooks, the second one containing the gazetteer, sorcerer class and magic rules/spells.

 

[Daz]

If shields added their bonus to both Dodge and Parry, the Dodge-heavy classes (Barbarian, Pirate) would gain a lot. I don't like it.

Yeah but how many barbarians would throw away the two-hander to pick up a shield? The poor poor shield can use any boost it can get.

Maybe make dodge have more penalties if surrounded/in close quarters to compensate. Dunno.

I'm hoping for a lighter version rather than more rules as well.

Yeah, Conan should be fast and cinematic, not simulationist.

it's always a greater blow to the party as a whole when the bardiche-wielder misses an attack or gets knocked unconscious. I don't like this.

I'm looking forward to sundering the first bardiche that gets used in my campaign

One way to do it would be to release it as a (cheap) PDF a couple of months before the printed version. That would give us fans time to read through it and note down errors that could then be fixed in the printed book. Green Ronin has used this idea for a lot of their stuff and it seems pretty successful.

That sounds like a remarkably good idea.

 

[Daz]

I'd like separate Player and GM corebooks, the second one containing the gazetteer, sorcerer class and magic rules/spells.

Hear hear, that way there'd be space to put a decent number of spells in the core book.

And more monsters.

 

[Oly]

There does appear to be some pressure to make Sorcerers more effective as PCs or to provide a more detailed magic system. I just don't think that that fits in well with the source material.

I'd be quite happy to see Sorcerers restricted to NPCs and the relatively detailed magic system in place right now stripped down to the bone and some general guidelines to Hyborian feeling magic in it's place.

Let each sorcerer have his own unique powers and perhaps an area of mastery (fire, summoning, necromancy, mind control etc.). The guide lines in Ruins of Hyboria for how to take a stock monster, file the numbers off of it and give it some unique attributes could be a great guide to this.

The space that that saves in the rulebook could then be used for source material or that introductory adventure that people have been asking for.

I'd rather the 2nd edition takes things out and cleans the rules as opposed to adding in a multitude of new rules and options.

 

[Evil_Trevor]

In some games there is software available which guides people through the character creation process and then prints out a fairly decent character sheet. In some cases this is supplied on a cd in the back of the book in others as a download. Extras include NPC/Monster sheets, GM records and quick reference rules.

Other things that can be useful are maps (and map drawing) and player handouts.

I would love to see this in the CONAN range.

 

[Netherek]

1. Sneak Attacks must inflict damage to opponent (bypass armour) before factoring bonus damage, and that SA damage doesn't affect armour. As it stands right now thieves mysteriously become power houses if your guard is down. A high level thief using a dagger can technically damage plate with a sneak attack.

I like the idea, but the "problem" is that it will make it much better to sneak attack with heavier weapons rather than just a dagger (I like Thieves to be deadly with daggers)..

That's easy, finesse attack possibly using feints in combination. Another solution is to limit it to light weapons and those that can finesse, though I don't see that as necessary...


As to scholars, I think giving them a dodge rate like the thief would be ok. Improving the strength of their alchemy would be more to Howards writing, than DB or a variety of attack spells. I'd even go to the point of granting a lesser form of Terror of the Unknown when encountering display of sorcerous power included the dramatic alchemy displays.

Yeah but how many barbarians would throw away the two-hander to pick up a shield?

That's easy, Shields improve the dodge vs. missile weapons, as it stands right now Barbies and Pirates have the best vs. them. Why make them best at everything? Granting the bonus to Dodge in total makes them far better than anything in the game. Barbies are already almost over the top. I'd leave them and shields be.

I think a feat improving shield use would be nice though, I could see a feat grant an additional bonus...

Yeah, Conan should be fast and cinematic, not simulationist.

I am on the otherside of the fence, if you want it light, use less. In particular you can leave out minis, AoO, most options, and run it like AD&D. Don't take away stuff just because you don't use it, many of us do and happen to like it thick. There's always Runequirk for a lighter version. :lol:

I'd like separate Player and GM corebooks, the second one containing the gazetteer, sorcerer class and magic rules/spells.

I disagree. One of the worst things about D&D is the GM needing 3 core books. I'd for one rather have one $50 book than two $40 books. The GM's guide isn't that great any way, take out the Magic Items and how to run adventures/campaigns and you aren't left with much...

Besides, most of that is already in the Core, and we are getting a Bestiary. There really isn't a need for two books.

 

[slaughterj]

But having the shield bonus apply to Dodge as well as Parry would seriously shift the balance between the two defenses. As it is now, Dodge is good because it helps against ranged attacks and Parry is good because it is easier to get it up higher than Dodge (by using a shield). If shields added their bonus to both Dodge and Parry, the Dodge-heavy classes (Barbarian, Pirate) would gain a lot. I don't like it.

You are misunderstanding me. I am not saying to change what the shield applies to - I think it should continue to apply to Parry and Dodge vs. Ranged attacks, which it currently does (i.e., not Dodge vs. Melee attacks). But change the nature of the bonus, e.g., to a circumstance bonus, that does not go away when one is flatfooted/feinted, as opposed to dodge bonuses which do go away.

 

[The King]

may be a softcover. 8) :lol:

 

[Padre]

I disagree. One of the worst things about D&D is the GM needing 3 core books.

It wouldn't be a problem if all core books contained essential and useful stuff only. That's 3x320 = 960 pages (D&D 3,5) - imagine how many published Conan supplements could fit in there!

I'd for one rather have one $50 book than two $40 books.

Why $40? How about two $29 volumes?

The GM's guide isn't that great any way, take out the Magic Items and how to run adventures/campaigns and you aren't left with much...

What makes you think a Conan GM's Guide would be as useless? My idea was to split the contents of Conan core, so both books would contain useful stuff.

Besides, most of that is already in the Core, and we are getting a Bestiary. There really isn't a need for two books.

It's not essential, but it would improve the organization of the core book(s) content.