What changes would YOU make to Conan Second Edition?
- Thread starter Trodax
- Start date
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but it has been observed in other threads that borderers really should receive Knowledge (nature) as a class skill. I think this should also apply to barbarians as well. Perhaps also Knowledge (nature: steppes, desert) for nomads and Knowledge (nature: the open main, the Vilayet, major riverways) for pirates. This should enable better chance to receive a synergy bonus to/from Survival.
As previously noted, a more "accurate" map (after Mr. Rippke) would be essential, inclusion of the temptress class, Iranistani, Acheronian and other races...
As previously noted, a more "accurate" map (after Mr. Rippke) would be essential, inclusion of the temptress class, Iranistani, Acheronian and other races...
Sutek said:
Cover, in d20 only covers you from one direction. Hiding behind a half wall only protects you from people on the opposite side of the wall. If a shield provided cover you'd have to determine which direction the person was using the shield to cover, most likley front and left side and which way they are on the map. It means the user of the shield always knows where the shield should be for the best benefit. The bonus to parry is an active thing which represents the shield user getting the shield where it needs to be for defence.
Shields as cover also means that if a stealthy character gets the drop on a person witha shield he still has to get around the shield no matter what. Unlike the current system where if you don't know your about to be attacked you can't use your shield to defend yourself.
And Trodax my group loves combat manuevers since it's a way to add flavor to combat with out having to house rule or say that's not possible. Pantherish Twist is an example of something that does that very well. Plus it helps with things like the discussions on the board about quick drawing someone elses weapon, the use of a combat maneuver makes that seem less wonky and would help to balance it game wise.
-allow more options with formation combat. im currently writing up rules for small unit tactics using formations. as it stands they are pretty much intended for mass combat which is good but would be nice to have some more adventuring party appropriate ones.
-more combat maneuvers, cant get enough of them and neither can my players.
-ranged finesse make it useful or remove it.
-classes, more slight tweaking than a complete overhaul.
-either remove or rewrite defensive blast to make it more REH conan.
-two handed wpn damage and sneak attack style are fine. makes combat lethal and exciting like it should be and not the attrition war it is in d&d.
on nordheimirs i just gave them soldier as a favoured class in my game alonside barbarian.
also i dont see how you guys struggle with grappling? i think the rules as is are fine. to each his own i guess.
oh and more vincent.
-more combat maneuvers, cant get enough of them and neither can my players.
-ranged finesse make it useful or remove it.
-classes, more slight tweaking than a complete overhaul.
-either remove or rewrite defensive blast to make it more REH conan.
-two handed wpn damage and sneak attack style are fine. makes combat lethal and exciting like it should be and not the attrition war it is in d&d.
on nordheimirs i just gave them soldier as a favoured class in my game alonside barbarian.
also i dont see how you guys struggle with grappling? i think the rules as is are fine. to each his own i guess.
oh and more vincent.
Here's my list:
1) Include the Temptress as a core class.
2) Only tweak the classes if needed. Examples include correcting skill list omissions, modifying skill points or save bonuses if better class balance is achieved. DO NOT combine/eliminate existing classes. I like my borderers thank you very much.
3) Incorporate variants from the Hyboria's F-est series. This shouldn't be done to bloat the rules or books, but if those sourcebooks would be radically altered and/or will be going out of print, the additions contained in those books should be made core. I'm talking about variant rules for class combos, expanded fighting styles for borderers, variants on a class itself (e.g. Pit Fighter for Barbarian), etc.
4) Spell creation guidelines or system. Raven's done a great job expanding the sorcery lists. I'm just not that talented.
5) Expand/revise the weapons & armor list. I haven't experienced the "killer bardiche" issue, but that's probably b/c my player's haven't opted for that weapon. I have a minor gripe about Leather Jack's providing decent DR leaving no middle ground for hardened leather armor, ringmail, studded leather, etc.
6) Revise poisons as others have suggested.
7) Possibly regional tweaks on classes. Again, in the vein of the Hyboria's F--est books and the regional sourcebooks.
Not a lot, really. Just tweaks. Conan's a great game as is!
Azgulor
1) Include the Temptress as a core class.
2) Only tweak the classes if needed. Examples include correcting skill list omissions, modifying skill points or save bonuses if better class balance is achieved. DO NOT combine/eliminate existing classes. I like my borderers thank you very much.
3) Incorporate variants from the Hyboria's F-est series. This shouldn't be done to bloat the rules or books, but if those sourcebooks would be radically altered and/or will be going out of print, the additions contained in those books should be made core. I'm talking about variant rules for class combos, expanded fighting styles for borderers, variants on a class itself (e.g. Pit Fighter for Barbarian), etc.
4) Spell creation guidelines or system. Raven's done a great job expanding the sorcery lists. I'm just not that talented.
5) Expand/revise the weapons & armor list. I haven't experienced the "killer bardiche" issue, but that's probably b/c my player's haven't opted for that weapon. I have a minor gripe about Leather Jack's providing decent DR leaving no middle ground for hardened leather armor, ringmail, studded leather, etc.
6) Revise poisons as others have suggested.
7) Possibly regional tweaks on classes. Again, in the vein of the Hyboria's F--est books and the regional sourcebooks.
Not a lot, really. Just tweaks. Conan's a great game as is!
Azgulor
Sutek
Mongoose
Foxworthy said:
Thus my suggestion to have them provide concealment rather than cover, as I corrected myself above. You're kinda pushing forward a point that I've already aquiesced to. (lol)
Shields as concealment would be very easy. They'd provide some concealment factor, which, when flat-footed could operate one of two ways: (A) stay the same or (B) be halved.
A large shield providing X% cover normally just makes sense to me because, as you say, the shield is normally used to move to actively block such that attackers have to come around it.
Anyway, enough on that here. If you or anyone else wants to discuss it more, we can start another thread...
slaughterj
Mongoose
Definitely some good ideas here.
Overall, I would like to see the changes be evolutionary rather than revolutionary, such as adding extra rules that should be present (e.g., SRD rules, dropped content like Zamorian Bonus Languages, etc.).
In addition to my earlier list, I would like to see:
- less situational bonuses as well, they are too much to keep track of.
- more SRD rules included, such as that Slings add STR to damage and AP, and the attack modifiers chart
- a chart in the back with conditions listed
- an accurate map
- a fix to 5th level Borderer getting the Two-Weapon Combat feat, this shouldn't occur until 6th level
- adding Heal and Knowledge: Nature to the Borderer skill list
- revise the skill list to at least DnD 3.5 (while I would prefer an even more advanced list, such as is found in Iron Heroes or the MnM Masterminds manual, that might be too dramatic of a change, without other things changing as well)
For the person looking for a better character sheet, better ones have been made, such as http://www.yandros.com/RPG/Conan/conan_char_sheet_1-5.pdf (PDF)
and
http://www.yandros.com/RPG/Conan/conanonepageform_1-5.pdf (PDF Form)
In response to the discussion on shields, the change I suggested (i.e., that the bonus apply even in flatfooted/feinted situations) does not require facing to be included. Currently a shield still works against all 8 attackers on the person using a shield, no facing rules required, so simply changing the bonus to apply as a Defense bonus to Parry and ranged Dodge rather than a bonus which goes away in flatfooted/feinted situations does not create any difficulties. Plus it promotes shield use, which is a good thing. Further, in response to Trodax's comment about modifying the rules a bit being necessary to effect this change, that is simple enough - per the Atlantean Changes doc on this site, the bonus for Fighting Defensively and Total Defense is a circumstance bonus, not a dodge bonus, and is therefore not lost when flatfooted/feinted, and the shield bonus can simply be made a circumstance bonus as well (which makes perfect sense really, it is helping you "dodge" per se, it is providing a circumstance in which things are blocked from hitting you).
In response to the person saying that they can't change the way STR works with 2-handed weapons and power attack because it is core OGL, I say so what?! They changed AOOs such that a 5' step away with an action that would trigger an AOO will still trigger an AOO. They INTELLIGENTLY added in Fighting on the Run (p.159), to enable movement before and after the attack without requiring a feat (and it is notably better than the feat Spring Attack). They added Feinting, DR, and AP, changed AC to Parry and Dodge, etc. So with all these changes, simply changing the way STR works with 2-handed weapons and power attack (and light weapons too) is not that big of a deal.
Overall, I would like to see the changes be evolutionary rather than revolutionary, such as adding extra rules that should be present (e.g., SRD rules, dropped content like Zamorian Bonus Languages, etc.).
In addition to my earlier list, I would like to see:
- less situational bonuses as well, they are too much to keep track of.
- more SRD rules included, such as that Slings add STR to damage and AP, and the attack modifiers chart
- a chart in the back with conditions listed
- an accurate map
- a fix to 5th level Borderer getting the Two-Weapon Combat feat, this shouldn't occur until 6th level
- adding Heal and Knowledge: Nature to the Borderer skill list
- revise the skill list to at least DnD 3.5 (while I would prefer an even more advanced list, such as is found in Iron Heroes or the MnM Masterminds manual, that might be too dramatic of a change, without other things changing as well)
For the person looking for a better character sheet, better ones have been made, such as http://www.yandros.com/RPG/Conan/conan_char_sheet_1-5.pdf (PDF)
and
http://www.yandros.com/RPG/Conan/conanonepageform_1-5.pdf (PDF Form)
In response to the discussion on shields, the change I suggested (i.e., that the bonus apply even in flatfooted/feinted situations) does not require facing to be included. Currently a shield still works against all 8 attackers on the person using a shield, no facing rules required, so simply changing the bonus to apply as a Defense bonus to Parry and ranged Dodge rather than a bonus which goes away in flatfooted/feinted situations does not create any difficulties. Plus it promotes shield use, which is a good thing. Further, in response to Trodax's comment about modifying the rules a bit being necessary to effect this change, that is simple enough - per the Atlantean Changes doc on this site, the bonus for Fighting Defensively and Total Defense is a circumstance bonus, not a dodge bonus, and is therefore not lost when flatfooted/feinted, and the shield bonus can simply be made a circumstance bonus as well (which makes perfect sense really, it is helping you "dodge" per se, it is providing a circumstance in which things are blocked from hitting you).
In response to the person saying that they can't change the way STR works with 2-handed weapons and power attack because it is core OGL, I say so what?! They changed AOOs such that a 5' step away with an action that would trigger an AOO will still trigger an AOO. They INTELLIGENTLY added in Fighting on the Run (p.159), to enable movement before and after the attack without requiring a feat (and it is notably better than the feat Spring Attack). They added Feinting, DR, and AP, changed AC to Parry and Dodge, etc. So with all these changes, simply changing the way STR works with 2-handed weapons and power attack (and light weapons too) is not that big of a deal.
Sutek
Mongoose
This, I dont'know about, because the 5th and 6th level abilities are simply swapped. But it was an odd change from the original to AE.
2HND wpns dealing more damage allows an appropriate scaling based on the limited number of dice available to roll, and it's really such a minor calculation of bonus damage that I just don't see it as being hindering in the slightest. It makes sense and it's OGL. I feel it should stay as is. All one is doing is increasing the bonus to the normal weapon damageand AP, so I dont' really see the issue. It's not even something that's that hard to calculate, or, gods forbid, just leave out altogether. I do in regards to off-hand damage being half STR bonus. In other words, don't drop it from the books because it's OGL and it should stay in, but with it in there it allows GMs to selectively use it or not. If it's not in print, people will come up with other wacky ways to do more damage with 2HND wpns that will make less sense, trust me.
:lol:
I'd also go so far as to say that if a good bestiary book is due out also, leave that section out and use that page allotment for expanding text redundancies throughout the book. In other words, it doesn't matter to us players usually if we have to read the same reminder that "Fatigue means XYZ" on every fifth page. Nor do we mind page referrences back to rule we just read. These simple internal reinfocements add to the practicality of the book, and make rules easier to find and implement.
Sutek said:
Well Two Handed Weapons getting 1.5x damage is to match it up with a main hand attack having 1x damage and the off hand getting .5x damage. That's the same reason why Two Handed Weapons get a x2 bonus out of power attack. Light weapons not getting a bonus from power attack always seemed like flavor to me more then balance though.
Now I don't really see the purpose in Two Handed fighting as all it does is increase rolling and in Conan it hurts because of AP more than in tradtional DnD. But realiticly two weapon fighting isn't that effective.
Sutek
Mongoose
Realistically, it's not intented to do loads of damage.
I could see a tweak where str bonus would be 1x for both weapons when the character is wielding two weapons without penalty. In other words, the one handed + 1 handed light thing. Then both weapons could be allowed to deal full damage.
But, I agree. The 2x, 1.5x, 1x and 0.5x damge adjustments due to handedness are important OGL factors and shouldn't be altered.
I could see a tweak where str bonus would be 1x for both weapons when the character is wielding two weapons without penalty. In other words, the one handed + 1 handed light thing. Then both weapons could be allowed to deal full damage.
But, I agree. The 2x, 1.5x, 1x and 0.5x damge adjustments due to handedness are important OGL factors and shouldn't be altered.
Trodax said:
I actually like it a lot that two-handed weapons do easily massive damage. I think it fits fine in to the spirit of the Conan stories, with one stroke from a greatsword lopping heads off from worst of monsters. It keeps as well certain sense of mortality in even high-level characters. I like the massive damage and the easy of doing it very much.
Trodax said:
I'll yet have to see how badly my players will abuse the defensive blast. As a house rule, when sorcerer in my game reachers zero power points he becomes fatigued and if he goes at minus power points, he is exhausted. I might suggest to players that defensive blast would make the sorcerer exhausted, if it starts to seem too overpowered. That way, it would be really a last measure.
However, I think some sort of defensive ability or at the very least, powerful death-curse would be good for all sorcerers. Although Conan slays many sorcerers, the certain inherent dangerousness of all meddling with dark arts, no matter how feeble, feels fitting to the genre.
One option would be to make the defensive blast an optional rule, combined with the "exhausted after blasting" -feature.
Sutek said:
That's the sort of change that I'd really not like to see the 2nd edition making.
While it does make some logical sense it introduces another dice roll into the combat where as I'd rather see the 2nd edition speeding the game up.
Shields giving a quick and easy modifier to defence is fairly slick. Rolling D20 to hit, then D100 for the miss chance and then the damage dice just seems a bit too much to me.
As a slight aside I really dislike the concealment rules anyway because it does introduce that extra level of rolling (rolling different dice at that too) and it isn't affected by either the concealed or the attackers skills (well beyond actually making the hit anyway).
I do wonder if we'll see the 2nd edition begin to make some choices between becoming crunchier and more simulationist or faster and more abstract. D20 will always be a fairly heavy system but a lot could be done to lighten it.
Here are some tweaks I'd like...
1. Sneak Attacks must inflict damage to opponent (bypass armour) before factoring bonus damage, and that SA damage doesn't affect armour. As it stands right now thieves mysteriously become power houses if your guard is down. A high level thief using a dagger can technically damage plate with a sneak attack.
2. Remove Defensive Blast, it has no precidence.
3. Add flavor to Poison/Toxins.
4. Add missing SRD rules.
5. Clearly state only base Str bonus applies to AP, (it's written that way, though it's not clear).
6. Make the aim action on Range Finesse a move action, this makes the feat usable w/o breaking it.
7. Better maps!!!
8. Vincent Darlage as the main support writter, as it stands, he is the best supplement writter I've read!
9. Streamline the Formation ability, either by making it a constant ability or something that is based around command. As it stands, the abilities really seem they should be constant regardless if you are with others or not.
10. More manuevers, this is an excellent feature that adds versatility to characters beyond the 10-20 max feats one can attain.
11. Improve the alchemy. Some items don't match up to the power they had in the novels, Flame Powder being on example.
12. Don't invalidate the Hyboria's F series.
13. Add more Social Abilities to Nobles. Add the Ranger Camouflage ability to borderer. Change the Scholar Iron Will feat to a selection of feats, it rarely is included on official scholars anyway.
14. Leave Barbarian as is, I think it's fine as is.
15. Expand the historical info, some maps would be nice as well.
16. Clarify what armour mounts can have, as far as I know they should only be allowed one layer...
17. Include some variants.
That's all I got for now.
Make sure the Temptress and Bandit are included....
1. Sneak Attacks must inflict damage to opponent (bypass armour) before factoring bonus damage, and that SA damage doesn't affect armour. As it stands right now thieves mysteriously become power houses if your guard is down. A high level thief using a dagger can technically damage plate with a sneak attack.
2. Remove Defensive Blast, it has no precidence.
3. Add flavor to Poison/Toxins.
4. Add missing SRD rules.
5. Clearly state only base Str bonus applies to AP, (it's written that way, though it's not clear).
6. Make the aim action on Range Finesse a move action, this makes the feat usable w/o breaking it.
7. Better maps!!!
8. Vincent Darlage as the main support writter, as it stands, he is the best supplement writter I've read!
9. Streamline the Formation ability, either by making it a constant ability or something that is based around command. As it stands, the abilities really seem they should be constant regardless if you are with others or not.
10. More manuevers, this is an excellent feature that adds versatility to characters beyond the 10-20 max feats one can attain.
11. Improve the alchemy. Some items don't match up to the power they had in the novels, Flame Powder being on example.
12. Don't invalidate the Hyboria's F series.
13. Add more Social Abilities to Nobles. Add the Ranger Camouflage ability to borderer. Change the Scholar Iron Will feat to a selection of feats, it rarely is included on official scholars anyway.
14. Leave Barbarian as is, I think it's fine as is.
15. Expand the historical info, some maps would be nice as well.
16. Clarify what armour mounts can have, as far as I know they should only be allowed one layer...
17. Include some variants.
That's all I got for now.
Make sure the Temptress and Bandit are included....
I would like to see the following:
- Errata. 'nuff said.
- change greatsword down to 2D8 damage
- up the lt/hvy crossbow damage to 2D8/2D10
- tweak some of the AP ratings (warhammer or Bossonian longow for example)
- tweak DB a bit, although I wouldnt remove it entirely
- change poisons so that reducing any stat to 0 is lethal
- you might make small tweaks to the classes, but I never saw any big problems
- change power attack damage bonus with a 2H weapon down to 1.5x (from 2x)
- maybe add a small intro adventure to the book
- Oh, and thoroughly proof the book before releasing it.
Mad Dog
- Errata. 'nuff said.
- change greatsword down to 2D8 damage
- up the lt/hvy crossbow damage to 2D8/2D10
- tweak some of the AP ratings (warhammer or Bossonian longow for example)
- tweak DB a bit, although I wouldnt remove it entirely
- change poisons so that reducing any stat to 0 is lethal
- you might make small tweaks to the classes, but I never saw any big problems
- change power attack damage bonus with a 2H weapon down to 1.5x (from 2x)
- maybe add a small intro adventure to the book
- Oh, and thoroughly proof the book before releasing it.
Mad Dog
- for sneak attack i house ruled that the damage+str of the weapon must get through the dr or finesse past to allow the sneak attack damage.
- i still dont see why some of you people insist on nerfing 2handed wpns? they are supposed to be utterly devestating as in 1 hit 1 kill.
- my house rule for DB was to change the fire damage to subdual and the sorceror cops half of it with a fort save to halve it again.
i always saw conan killing those 2 giants as being critical hits with fighting madness activated, massive damage for the win. also the giants were probably younger ones and only large instead of huge size.
also shields do not provide concealment, it's cover and thats what the dv bonus of the shield represents. concealment would mean that the shield is miraculously making you phase out or become partly invisible which isnt the case, your perfectly visible to the enemy. and if you want attacks to have a chance to hit the shield instead of the person thats covered in the optional rule for parry, you go further and say that any attack that hits within the dv range that the shield gives the bonus then it counts as a sunder to the shield.
- i still dont see why some of you people insist on nerfing 2handed wpns? they are supposed to be utterly devestating as in 1 hit 1 kill.
- my house rule for DB was to change the fire damage to subdual and the sorceror cops half of it with a fort save to halve it again.
i always saw conan killing those 2 giants as being critical hits with fighting madness activated, massive damage for the win. also the giants were probably younger ones and only large instead of huge size.
also shields do not provide concealment, it's cover and thats what the dv bonus of the shield represents. concealment would mean that the shield is miraculously making you phase out or become partly invisible which isnt the case, your perfectly visible to the enemy. and if you want attacks to have a chance to hit the shield instead of the person thats covered in the optional rule for parry, you go further and say that any attack that hits within the dv range that the shield gives the bonus then it counts as a sunder to the shield.
Lord Jolly the Scribe
Mongoose
Ok, I am going to be as nice as possible about but excuse me for getting sounding condescending or angry but here it goes:
1. Leave Defensive Blast alone. "I'm a Scholar, my spells take forever to cast, give me attacks of opportunity against me, I have no fighting skills, no good weapon training, I can be resisted by the easiest of feats and I am the only class that can be corrupted. But I have a cool blast for protection that wipes out my ability to cast any more spells." Let the guy live. At low levels and unprepared most characters could take it and live, but if you are dumb enough to get that close and not have a good ability to move out of the way, then it's your tail.
2. Borderer is fine, he is a exloring, wild woodsman with the ability to two-weapon well or range something. He is the nature guy and does a fine job of it.
3. Poisons and stuff I agree with need revamping.
4. Weapon damage is good. they need to drop stuff cause this is a brutal world. You can't take the raging barabrian with the greatsword, run.
5. Sneak Attack specialty for thieves is good. Just lower the amount of weapons they can use. Plus do you know how many times my barbarian has spotted thieves before they could sneak?
6. As for this "add this from DnD" or "ability from DnD we should use" that, leave DnD out of Conan. It has no place in the game. DnD is so strict over stuff you need slide rulers and specialized calculators to figure bonuses, penalties, class and special abilities out.
7. Combat Man.s are cool. Let the players keep track of them and if they forget they have them and can use them, too bad for them. It's nice to basically have a free feat instead of being stuck to only waiting every few levels and not being allowed to have certain things, while combat man.s add flavor and my players love them.
Sorry bout the rant, but that is my 2 cents. Take it how you like.
1. Leave Defensive Blast alone. "I'm a Scholar, my spells take forever to cast, give me attacks of opportunity against me, I have no fighting skills, no good weapon training, I can be resisted by the easiest of feats and I am the only class that can be corrupted. But I have a cool blast for protection that wipes out my ability to cast any more spells." Let the guy live. At low levels and unprepared most characters could take it and live, but if you are dumb enough to get that close and not have a good ability to move out of the way, then it's your tail.
2. Borderer is fine, he is a exloring, wild woodsman with the ability to two-weapon well or range something. He is the nature guy and does a fine job of it.
3. Poisons and stuff I agree with need revamping.
4. Weapon damage is good. they need to drop stuff cause this is a brutal world. You can't take the raging barabrian with the greatsword, run.
5. Sneak Attack specialty for thieves is good. Just lower the amount of weapons they can use. Plus do you know how many times my barbarian has spotted thieves before they could sneak?
6. As for this "add this from DnD" or "ability from DnD we should use" that, leave DnD out of Conan. It has no place in the game. DnD is so strict over stuff you need slide rulers and specialized calculators to figure bonuses, penalties, class and special abilities out.
7. Combat Man.s are cool. Let the players keep track of them and if they forget they have them and can use them, too bad for them. It's nice to basically have a free feat instead of being stuck to only waiting every few levels and not being allowed to have certain things, while combat man.s add flavor and my players love them.
Sorry bout the rant, but that is my 2 cents. Take it how you like.
slaughterj said:
1. When you don't have time to raise your shield, then you don't have time to raise your shield.
2.Strength and leverage play into the affect here. I think it's fine the way it is. People need to learn to play what they want, and not for power game playing.
3.I agree, something needs to be tweaked here. However, I am not sure a low level player should be able to stand against all terror aspects they run into.
4.I think that if you make an opposing strength check and pass by so much, then you should be able to do to the hilt.
5.I disagree completely because I think every living thing does have it's own energy. I think this works fine and people are just afraid of sorcery WAY to much.
6.I don't see anything needing to be changed with sacrifice either. Now note that my character does not use it. I am going the way of using meditation instead.
7.Alchemy is only hard to do if the GM limits the players abilities to raise funds, and the party doesn't want to wait around for the alchemist to prepare things.
8.Not sure I see an issue here. Everyone has access to a dictionary.
Krushnak said:
I think this can be fixed by making the sorcerer exhausted after the blast and perhaps making opportunist sacrifice unusable with the defensive blast. While I agree that too flash defensive blasts are really not suitable for Conan, it can be fixed with some new fluff. I think sorcerers do need some sort of defensive supernatural ability to make them something to be feared and give even the most pathetic apprentice some form of self-protection. However, defensive blast could well be replaced with something more...stylish. In the mean time, I think the suggestions I laid out are enough to make it work in the present form. I have yet to decide if I'll put them to use in my own campaign.
