What are the next books for Glorantha?

Normally, describing an area involves three stages, or level of supplements:

1. An overview, normally covering the whole area, describing the major cultures and religions, sometimes sketching major population centres, but nothing in depth.

2. Something more specific, describing most of the regions and peoples of an area, with expanded descriptions of major cities and regions and writeups of the major cults and religions.

3. Description of particular areas within a region, including all the centres of population, minor cults and cultural groups.

Second Age RQ has covered most of Genertela under 1, Jrustela under 2, some of the EWF as 2 but nowhere really at level 3.

I would expect particular areas to be covered at level 3 first, concentrating on those interesting areas or areas where conflict between the empires is likely. Then outlying areas would be covered at levels 1 and 2, with level 3 if there is enough interest.

So, expect a general supplement covering the whole of Pamaltela, then perhaps one covering the three empires of Pamaltela, then perhaps supplements covering each of the areas in turn.

I'd like to see the Clanking City Seige being covered in a lot more detail, together with the Lightbringers' Quest and the bringing down of the Clanking Machine. After all, that has a heroic feel to it and is one of the turning points that ends the Second Age.
 
Second Age RQ has covered most of Genertela under 1, Jrustela under 2, some of the EWF as 2 but nowhere really at level 3.

Dara Happa Stirs? Fronela? Ralios? Kustria in the main Glorantha: the Second Age?

Do you not think any of these count as Level 3?
 
Dara Happa and Fronela are definitely Level 2, in my opinion. Fronela might even be Level 1 as it is an overview of the area, except that it does cover some areas in detail.

Ralios might be considered at Level 3, but it doesn't go into any one area in great depth.

Kustria would have been Level 3 if it had been mroe than a sketch. In any case, these are scores against a supplement not against individual chapters in a supplement. Glorantha the Second Age is a Level 1 supplement but does go into greater depth where Kustria is concerned. A Kustria supplement would probably be Level 3 if it built on the information in Glorantha the Second Age and expanded the area concerned.
 
As a comparison, looking at official RQ2/3 supplements, I would classify them as:

Level 1: Genertela Crucible of the Hero Wars, RQ2 rulebook

Level 2: Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, Griffin Mountain, River of Cradles, Troll Pack, Pavis & Big Rubble

Level 3: Borderlands, Strangers in Prax, Sun County, Adventures on the Borderlands, Haunted Ruins, Into Uzdom (RQ3 adventures in Troll Land), Snakepipe Hollow

Apple Lane is too small to be considered a Level 3, really.

I've probably missed loads off. The P&BRC books are definitely Level 3, for example, although they are not AH/Chaosium.
 
I would rate RoC as level 3, instead. The level of detail given there is enough. Not all supplements need give you the same detail as Haunted Ruins, which describe each troll in the clan. And you forgo the Munchrooms. But yes, RQ2/3 had more details in the supplements. Even as guidelines for making up your own areas, such supplements should exist.
 
soltakss said:
As a comparison, looking at official RQ2/3 supplements, I would classify them as:

Level 1: Genertela Crucible of the Hero Wars, RQ2 rulebook

Level 2: Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, Griffin Mountain, River of Cradles, Troll Pack, Pavis & Big Rubble

Level 3: Borderlands, Strangers in Prax, Sun County, Adventures on the Borderlands, Haunted Ruins, Into Uzdom (RQ3 adventures in Troll Land), Snakepipe Hollow

This list is bound to cause arguments. Pavis at Level 2? Surely it was a level three - it would be hard to get more granular than local politics, personailities, NPC stats, local gangs, maps of everything, adventures etc.

Also, was not Haunted Ruins and Into Uzdom simply Troll Pak split into two (and without Lisa Free's amazing illustrations)? Therefore Troll Pak must also be a three.

By the Soltakss Scale I reckon Blood of Orlanth would make it a three. It certainly fits the definition provided.
 
By the Soltakss scale, I think a lot of supplements go for a '1', with some '2' in them. A number of other things go from '2' with '3' content also. Ralios was a '2' with some '3', same as Griffin Mountain and Dorastor, Pavis, Sun County, Big Rubble, etc.. Most scenario packs are a '3', so you can call Strangers In Prax, Shadows On The Borderland, Blood of Orlanth, '3s'.

The definitions are a bit misleading. What you really want are more scenario packs.

RQ did it this way first time round. People complained that they wanted more general information, arguing that they could make their own scenarios up if they were equipped with more general info about a bigger area. Glorantha was built from the ground up, thats the way it was. These days, a lot of info is established but sometimes needs reiterating for new editions. I think Mongoose have got it pretty much right in the amount of overview material in comparison with their detailed material. I dont think Chaosium always did get it right to be honest, they were hostage to the material that they were presented with.

If you want to have a campaign set in Pamaltela, you have enough sketch detail to do so. In fact, TotRM printed OVER 40 PAGES of info about Pamaltela! Its enough to be getting on with surely. Yes, its mostly 3rd age stuff, but extrapolation can be fun.

I want more info on the mythology of Glorantha, to take it away from possibly being seen as a D&D clone. I want the history of Pent, more detail from the 1st age, info about Tada, detail on the regions of Prax, the geogrphy of the Underworld. But I also want mechanics and scenarios.

But we cant have it all at once. :(

It amazes me that Runequesters were desparate for more info about stuff such as Heroquesting for YEARS. But Chaosium dithered about with the idea. One author thought it should be playable, another thought it should be story and narrative. Mongoose have published more detailed playable info on Heroquesting than anything Chaosium EVER published. I think there was something vague in Elder Secrets once.

Runequesters. You cant please them all.
 
PrinceYyrkoon said:
If you want to have a campaign set in Pamaltela, you have enough sketch detail to do so. In fact, TotRM printed OVER 40 PAGES of info about Pamaltela! Its enough to be getting on with surely. Yes, its mostly 3rd age stuff, but extrapolation can be fun.
Well, I have hundreds more pages than that, but sadly, the one thing that is needed is still missing—cults.

Sure there is Pamalt, but what about Ompalam? That's just off the top of my head—there are huge swathes of cults that are needed to make Pamaltela playable (it's currently got about to "Slotakss Level" 1.5).

One can't really use anything other than the old "schtick" of "overseas visitors exploring funny foreign lands", it's the cultural and social info that makes native characters possible, and that's what we don't have.
 
Lord High Munchkin said:
One can't really use anything other than the old "schtick" of "overseas visitors exploring funny foreign lands", it's the cultural and social info that makes native characters possible, and that's what we don't have.

I guess.

This new 'Soltakss Detail Guage' could come in useful after all!

In relation to Central Genertela, where there is definitely exotic cultures going on, the broad brushing of other areas has suffered from distinct historical influence. I was slightly disappointed finding out that there were definite influences of African and Austtralian culture for Pamaltela. When it was purely a mystery, it seemed more interesting. Dont know what I was expecting though.
 
Soltakss wrotes:
One thing that Moon Design says for HeroQuest Glorantha is that anything for the core Heortlings sells way better than anything for other areas.

Presumably the same applies to Second Age RQ.

So, although Pamaltela might be interesting and certainly fits in with the Second Age (at least three major empires there at the time) how many people would buy it?

With all my respect, should I understand this as "because it doesn't sell, we don't innovate?"
I had the impression that successful companies were making exactly the contrary, a lot of innovations to sell well. :!:

AD&D did innovate a lot (how many AD&D worlds were commercialized in nearly 30 years?) and it seemed to me to be very successful to become the common standard in RPG, at least for a while.

If Glorantha wasn't so assimiled to "You know, always the same old stuff reserved to the afficionados" (as described by my RPG dealer), perhaps it would have attracted new customers by its wonderful ever changing new tastes, customers who would have come and stayed, instead of a diminishing number of ageing and nostalgic core of old RPG-gamers. Is Glorantha fated to die in retirement house with us?

Glorantha as a world desserved a franchise for Books, Films and Video Games like Star Wars, Marvel or Disney universes. Instead we have the old Sartarite potion again and again and again and again... :cry:

Well, Mongoose Publishing changed that a little, thank to its team :D

:!: Of course, my comments are customer comments, not appreciations from a shareholder risking his own money.
 
PrinceYyrkoon wrote:
It amazes me that Runequesters were desparate for more info about stuff such as Heroquesting for YEARS. But Chaosium dithered about with the idea. One author thought it should be playable, another thought it should be story and narrative. Mongoose have published more detailed playable info on Heroquesting than anything Chaosium EVER published. I think there was something vague in Elder Secrets once.

And Mongoose Publishing should be praised for this audacy!

I have dreamed about a catalog of HeroQuests, detailled by story steps, rewards and curses, with connections between them, sortable by deities and pantheons, places, civilizations and historical periods, including rules for local variations and even paradoxes... :P

Yes I can google this a little and invent the rest, but imagine the interest of a book with 20 or 30 typical HeroQuests (with illustrations, insights on Arkat, Godlearners, and other modern heroquesters... clear rules to make your own heroquests...).

What an unique and original asset it would have been in regard of other RPG universes...
 
I'll chip-in here.

The intention is to cover as much of Glorantha as humanly possible; so every major region and culture will receive detailed treatment, but it will take time.

Some of you have commented on how some areas seem to get more treatment than others, both by Mongoose and Moon Design (Sartar, for instance) and I guess this is true to some extent. The reason for this isn't confined to just fulfilling the needs of a small group of aficionados, but because certain areas are of crucial importance to Glorantha's overall story - and because its certain that detailing these areas provide good and solid bases for campaigns. Also, Greg's writing in recent years has developed many of these areas substantially - 'History of the Heortling Peoples' and 'Esrolia', both canonical, Stafford Library publications from Moon Design, have considerably enhanced the understanding and depth of the Second Age in Genertela. Much of this came after Glorantha: The Second Age (from Mongoose) was released and it warrants integration into the wider canon published by both Mongoose and Moon.

But as I said earlier, there's every intention to detail Pamaltela, Vormain, Kralorela and so on to the same, or deeper, degree as seen in 'Dara Happa Stirs' and 'Fronela'. The race books - Dragonewts, Elfs, Mostali, Ducks and Uz, offer some background material not previously seen on some Gloranthan regions beyond central Genertela, and that aims to form a basis for continued expansion.

There are also several projects in the works that aim to give greater depth and exploration, beyond the traditional Gloranthan borders. I cannot say too much on this at present as its early days, but there's a great deal of exciting material under prep and consideration.

But, you know, it all takes time... :D
 
Loz

I find Greg S to be particularly wilful in his constant rewriting, re-emphasis, and reinvention of Glorantha. He has contradicted earlier published material on more than one occasion. I know he is the archetypal 'wrestless inventive genius', but, does this kind of thing get in the way of others inventing portions of the cannon?

Years ago, Greg wrote in Genertela, (I think), that the world was 'ours' now, that we could invent with impunity, and that he had handed over to 'us', the reins. Yet we are still at the point where Gregs vision is still seen as the 'one true vision', and that, should he decide a slightly different history for Sartar, we must all, once again, rethink OUR versions of it. We must still wait for the great man to tell us what the actual history of the Heortlings was.

I know he is a man of astounding inventiveness, but, does anyone think that, perhaps, this has led to the stunting of Glorantha as a legitimate fantasy environment for rpgs, computer games, film, cartoons (even!), other peoples stories, etc., etc.? It is undoubtedly, a fantastic invention, but maybe one that has been criminally underexposed.

Its obvious from non-Glorantha-types, that it is seen as a dwindling, esoteric, elitist subject that only caters for educated, middle-class adult boys.

Thoughts?
 
I find Greg S to be particularly wilful in his constant rewriting, re-emphasis, and reinvention of Glorantha. He has contradicted earlier published material on more than one occasion. I know he is the archetypal 'wrestless inventive genius', but, does this kind of thing get in the way of others inventing portions of the cannon?

A very big part of the problem was that a lot of material got written for various AH supplements and others that didn't attempt to involve Greg, even from a high-level guidance, POV, which led to some material getting 'Gregged'. Some regard that as a badge of honour; others as a distressing nuisance. I've found that, by running an idea past him first, discussing, and paying attention to sources he directs you to, you can minimise that happening. Dara Happa Stirs and Mostali were the products of long discussions, references to material that I hadn't considered before, an a genuine exchange of ideas, some of which he adopted from my suggestions for his own work on Dara Happa. So it can be a two-way street.

Mind you, he's not alone. Moorcock's similar, and I think my love of Elric is pretty well known. Every Elric novel or short story has 'Gregged' or 'Miked' work produced for the Elric game. Its a problem with dealing with any story that's still being developed by its ultimate creator.

With Glorantha, I think Greg is actually deepening, rather than rewriting, what's gone before. His focus is on the earlier ages, too, which assists hugely in detailing the Second Age. Up until a few years ago the Second Age was a lot of sketchy information gleaned from 'King of Sartar' and the Genertela boxed set. Now, there's an enormous amount of material that is consistent with what was written there but adds considerable depth.

Years ago, Greg wrote in Genertela, (I think), that the world was 'ours' now, that we could invent with impunity, and that he had handed over to 'us', the reins. Yet we are still at the point where Gregs vision is still seen as the 'one true vision', and that, should he decide a slightly different history for Sartar, we must all, once again, rethink OUR versions of it. We must still wait for the great man to tell us what the actual history of the Heortlings was.

He did, you're right. But as I said above, a lot of material was produced that didn't involve him in the right kind of way and led to a lot of inconsistencies that frustrated him. This is why the Gloranthan Fan Policy came into being. Controversial as that was, it was implemented to help rationalise the vision and prevent Gregging. For your own game, you run with whatever history or version or level of depth you want to: YGWV. But the canon has needed guiding, and even though it is frustrating for both writers, players and GMs, Glorantha does remain Greg's Master Work and he has every right to continue its development irrespective of others. The best way to tackle this is talk to him. He's very receptive.

On the history of the Heortlings, I do recommend you get hold of 'History of the Heortling Peoples' and 'Esrolia'. Extensive and consistent.

I know he is a man of astounding inventiveness, but, does anyone think that, perhaps, this has led to the stunting of Glorantha as a legitimate fantasy environment for rpgs, computer games, film, cartoons (even!), other peoples stories, etc., etc.? It is undoubtedly, a fantastic invention, but maybe one that has been criminally underexposed.

No. Greg's as keen as anyone to see these media developed. We've had 'King of Dragon Pass' and I know Greg has licensed Glorantha for other computer-based endeavours, although what stage of development they're at I have no idea. There's a French cartoon strip, 'Paths of the Dead' that is set in Dragon Pass, and way-back-when there was a script for a RuneQuest film. And as for fan-fic, as long as it abides by the Fan Policy, which isn't that intimidating, there's a huge amount of it (of varying quality). Look at Oliver Dickinson's 'Complete Griselda' for an example of someone working in Greg's world but creating stories that are separate from Greg's own work. Whether or not you like Oliver's style is moot; the fact is that there's plenty of material, sanctioned by Greg, that appears outside of the main Gloranthan game publishers.

I don't think Glorantha has been stunted at all, or criminally underexposed. On the contrary, at Continuum last year Jeff Richard, Mark Galeotti and I hosted a 'So You're New to Glorantha?' seminar which was very well attended. I do not think that the audience for Glorantha has contracted or remains the province of the hard-core from the days of Reaching Moon Megacorp, either.

Its obvious from non-Glorantha-types, that it is seen as a dwindling, esoteric, elitist subject that only caters for educated, middle-class adult boys.

Sure, but that's the way with any niche hobby or interest, from trainspotting through to stamp collecting. The outside perception, though, is always at odds with the reality. Roleplaying's full of cliques that enjoy bashing other cliques. That's just the way of things: but it doesn't reduce or negate the value of what any one clique does or enjoys. And I don't think that Greg's continued evolution of Glorantha, or the approach taken in the past or now, necessarily contributes substantially to the outside perception - although it may do so internally. Personally though, and you asked for my thoughts, I don't find it an especially tricky problem. But your views and opinions can, will and should vary!

:D
 
PrinceYyrkoon said:
In relation to Central Genertela, where there is definitely exotic cultures going on, the broad brushing of other areas has suffered from distinct historical influence. I was slightly disappointed finding out that there were definite influences of African and Austtralian culture for Pamaltela. When it was purely a mystery, it seemed more interesting. Dont know what I was expecting though.
I totally agree with you here. I dislike it when entire regions are obvious clones of real world historical cultures. I much prefer the exotic and alien when it comes to fantasy settings. Unfortunately though, many parts of Glorantha have suffered from this (dare I say it) lazy plagiarism. One example is the Malkioni West which has over time seemed to devolved into a pseudo high-medieval rip off.

If Pamaltela is ever published I dearly hope it is weird, astounding and unique - and that it I cannot immediately say "oh, its just dream-time aborigines crossed with massai"...
 
Pete Nash said:
If Pamaltela is ever published I dearly hope it is weird, astounding and unique - and that it I cannot immediately say "oh, its just dream-time aborigines crossed with massai"...
I would say that less that 20-30% of the material that is out there on Pamaltela is so styled (i.e. Aborigine or Massai... the material in 'Tales' was actually pretty atypical), a lot is plain weird.
 
Don't forget that certain areas of Glorantha are more important historically than others.

The Dragon Pass area had a lot going on in the God Time, in the First Age, in the Second Age and in the Third Age and the cultures involved are important because they are so widespread, which is why they have been focussed on.

Prax has probably been over-focussed on, but people like it.

In the Second Age, Jrustela is important as are Ralios, the areas around the Clanking City, Dragon Pass, possibly Pavis, and Kralorela. Pamaltela has an outpost of the God Learners and a couple of other Empires and is important in the Fall of the God Learners. The West in general is fairly important, but not overly so as much of the important God Learner history happens at the fringes of the Empire. Brithos is important but I can't see it being covered in detail as it is a weird place ful of NPCs. Peloria has been covered to some extent in Dara Happa Stirs and could be covered in more detail as a cradle of rebellion.

I can see important areas being covered in more detail and peripheral areas being glossed over in a couple of supplements and, to be honest, that's fine by me.
 
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