I've toyed with a similar idea, but as discussed above, I find it just becomes too difficult to explain why the Imperium (or in MTU, the Federal Republic) doesn't just exert complete mastery over space. The week-jump seems appropriate to the 18-24 sector state whereas, to retain the flavor of Traveller, a day-jump would seem to necessitate at least 50 sectors if space were to be anything more than a tightly controlled dictatorship.
What a difference a day makes....
- Thread starter Klaus Kipling
- Start date
I do not think so.Empty Hex said:
The fact that power could be applied rapidly does not mean that it would
be prudent to do so, or that it would indeed be done.
History seems to prove that the size of a state and the speed of communi-
cation do not have much influence on whether that state is a tightly con-
trolled dictatorship - otherwise the USA would be in dire straits, and poor
Luxemburg would be a nightmare.
rust said:
Well, it depends on the nature of the fundamental state. A monarchy, especially a militaristic one, would seem to lend itself to a disintegration of the sort of local power centers that are commonplace in the OTU. An example would be the difference between, say, the medieval Muscovite state and the Soviet Union. With faster response times available, a central authority is going to minimize its dependence on local power centers. The effects for a "democratic" ATU may not be an interplanetary fascist state, but it would virtually guarantee that the big-capital-ship-boasting fleet would be used to quickly crack down on pirates, rebels, etc. and that it would not take long before such deterrence would effectively turn charted space into a fairly dull place for adventure. We might also think of the wild west of the 19th century compared to if gangs of hell-raising raiders were attacking commerce in Kansas today.
more rapid travel means more rapid response to situations and thus more central interference in local political and economic factors. It's not going to affect pirates near as much as the local citizenry who obey the laws.
And more central authority doesn't mean by default more authoritarian forms of goverment, just fewer intermediate steps.
Authoritarianism comes from more oversight... and causes more, too.
example: Given a 6 day round trip (3Jx) instead of 6 week, the issue of what to do with the survivors of the rebel army on Ipshnit are going to be "hold until high command sends detailed instructions"; if 6 weeks, either they will have been spelled out in advance, or the local commander's discretion will be vital, or both.
And more central authority doesn't mean by default more authoritarian forms of goverment, just fewer intermediate steps.
Authoritarianism comes from more oversight... and causes more, too.
example: Given a 6 day round trip (3Jx) instead of 6 week, the issue of what to do with the survivors of the rebel army on Ipshnit are going to be "hold until high command sends detailed instructions"; if 6 weeks, either they will have been spelled out in advance, or the local commander's discretion will be vital, or both.
Supergamera
Mongoose
As an alternative, how about reducing jump time as a function of the drive relative to the distance? With a time of 1wk*(distance/drive)^1/2, ships can get from one world to a nearby one relatively quickly, but long distances still take the same time.
A far trader could make a J-1 in ~5 days, instead of 7, allowing it to offer some time advantage in short runs. With J-6 couriers, a world could have a turnaround time of ~4 days for a system 1pc away, instead of 14, perhaps resulting in more semi-autonomous "clusters" of worlds.
A far trader could make a J-1 in ~5 days, instead of 7, allowing it to offer some time advantage in short runs. With J-6 couriers, a world could have a turnaround time of ~4 days for a system 1pc away, instead of 14, perhaps resulting in more semi-autonomous "clusters" of worlds.
I also like the concept.
How about this thought I just had inspired by Supergamera?
Maybe increased speed should have penalties and be tied to ship specifications.
A jump 2 craft can make a jump 1 in 1/2 week but uses 2x the normal jump 1 fuel.
A jump 4 craft can make a jump 1 in 1/4 week but uses 4x the normal jump 1 fuel.
A jump 6 craft makes a jump 1 in just over a day (1/6 of a week) but uses up 6x the normal jump 1 fuel.
A jump 6 craft makes a jump 1 in 1/2 week using 2x the normal jump 1 fuel.
A jump 6 craft makes a jump 2 in 1/2 week using 2x the normal jump 2 fuel.
That's enough examples. You should get the idea.
Increased fuel would be directly proportional to how much faster than normal you travel.
Sorry Supergamera if I'm stealing your concept but I'm no math wiz and don't understand: 1wk*(distance/drive)^1/2
EDIT
This also might allow a jump 1 ship to make a 'jump 1' in 2 weeks using 1/2 fuel? Even maybe Jump 1 ship to go 2 parsecs in 2 weeks using 2x the fuel or 4 in 4 weeks using 4x the fuel?
Jump rating would be a measure of speed - the maximum within jump space. Distance would only be limited by the amount of fuel.
ok, I have a headache. Maybe none of this makes sense?
Edit #2
I'm already having ideas for a miss jump table with things like: you've arrived a day later than planned. The planets did not stop in their orbits, so you now need to travel to 'catch up' to your destination.
Maybe this is the start of an adventure. Crew needed to test an experimental new jump drive that can make jump 1 in 1/2 week.
Plot twists
1) Missjump to an unplanned location - GM gets to come up with an adventure for this location
2) Someone plotted the jump for a different location where they plan to steal the ship.
3) Competing company has sabotaged the ship.
4) Missjump: you come out of jump after what you think is 1/2 week but real time has gone backwards 1/2 week! For those who wish to introduce some interesting time travel to their universe.
5) Missjump: you come out of jump after what you think is 1/2 week but much more time has gone by and you are all wanted for stealing the ship.
6) You encounter strange creatures that live in jump space.
Now I'm just babbling. Sorry for stealing the thread.
How about this thought I just had inspired by Supergamera?
Maybe increased speed should have penalties and be tied to ship specifications.
A jump 2 craft can make a jump 1 in 1/2 week but uses 2x the normal jump 1 fuel.
A jump 4 craft can make a jump 1 in 1/4 week but uses 4x the normal jump 1 fuel.
A jump 6 craft makes a jump 1 in just over a day (1/6 of a week) but uses up 6x the normal jump 1 fuel.
A jump 6 craft makes a jump 1 in 1/2 week using 2x the normal jump 1 fuel.
A jump 6 craft makes a jump 2 in 1/2 week using 2x the normal jump 2 fuel.
That's enough examples. You should get the idea.
Increased fuel would be directly proportional to how much faster than normal you travel.
Sorry Supergamera if I'm stealing your concept but I'm no math wiz and don't understand: 1wk*(distance/drive)^1/2
EDIT
This also might allow a jump 1 ship to make a 'jump 1' in 2 weeks using 1/2 fuel? Even maybe Jump 1 ship to go 2 parsecs in 2 weeks using 2x the fuel or 4 in 4 weeks using 4x the fuel?
Jump rating would be a measure of speed - the maximum within jump space. Distance would only be limited by the amount of fuel.
ok, I have a headache. Maybe none of this makes sense?
Edit #2
I'm already having ideas for a miss jump table with things like: you've arrived a day later than planned. The planets did not stop in their orbits, so you now need to travel to 'catch up' to your destination.
Maybe this is the start of an adventure. Crew needed to test an experimental new jump drive that can make jump 1 in 1/2 week.
Plot twists
1) Missjump to an unplanned location - GM gets to come up with an adventure for this location
2) Someone plotted the jump for a different location where they plan to steal the ship.
3) Competing company has sabotaged the ship.
4) Missjump: you come out of jump after what you think is 1/2 week but real time has gone backwards 1/2 week! For those who wish to introduce some interesting time travel to their universe.
5) Missjump: you come out of jump after what you think is 1/2 week but much more time has gone by and you are all wanted for stealing the ship.
6) You encounter strange creatures that live in jump space.
Now I'm just babbling. Sorry for stealing the thread.
Supergamera
Mongoose
lurker said:
Instead of a linear reduction, like you proposed, I was thinking of a square root reduction.
Time = 1 week * squareroot( actual distance / size of jump executed)
Imagine Jump as creating a "tunnel" outside of normal space, which can not (normally) remain stable more than 1 week. Jump energy can be expended to make the "tunnel" longer (extending jump distance) or wider (reducing "friction" and increasing speed).
Example: A J-4 X-Boat uses it's full jump drive and fuel to make a 2 parsec jump. Time in jump is 1 week * squareroot ( 2 / 4) = 1 week * 0.71 = ~5 days.
This avoids giving too much advantage to high jump ships over short distances.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
AKAramis said:
However, on Earth today we have 24 hour travel anywhere on the planet, yet there are still pirates and smugglers etc. Somalia is a perfect example of a situation where speed to transport is not enough to control the situation. Sure there are other factors involved there, but there are military ships within 24 hours of the attacks and they still can't stop them.
I really like the 1 day jump idea.
But the underlying politics of the Somalia situation are different than if that situation were to occur in the 3rd Imperium. Here on Earth, you have the tricky issues of different countries, plus the concept that Somalia is a soveriegn nation with it's own territory in it's own right.Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
If one of the worlds of Corridor (or along just about any Imperial X-boat route) were to start acting that way, something would be done. First off, despite having their own government, they're nominally a member of the 3I. Secondly, you don't mess with trade in the 3I.
It's my opinion that the faster the communication time, the more likely we are to have the ransom situations we have off Somolia. Warships currently patrolling the area can't fire on the pirates without authorization - which, via today's communications, it isn't any comm lag that's causing the hesitations - it's the politics.
With the one week jump lag the OTU has, a warship commander on site has a lot more leeway to pursue the pirates as he sees fit - particularly if he's the only jump ship around - he can't jump away for a week, get permission to blow the pirates away, and jump back and still expect tofind the pirates where he left them. Change that to one day, and while the Captain still has some leeway, he has a lot less if he can get an answer in two days.
The longer the lag, the more likely he's going to be able to get away with the old adage of "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission." Even if an Imperial Navy Captain get's court-martialed for firing upon pirates and destroying a merchant ship along with the pirates, the result is still a smaller pirate population.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
kristof65 said:
This being a roleplaying game, and not a military simulation, the time lag forces the person on the spot (the players) to have greater autonomy and less ability to CYA by asking for instructions or permission; the extent of the delay effects the willingness of the local authorities to accept their decisions. The accusation of "you couldn't wait two days for instructions" vs "you couldn't wait two weeks" seems pretty crucial.
I like the minimum week delay - it makes nearly any local decision neccessary based on local authority; and distant authority has less ability and willingness to override it. Unless you scerw up. Then it's all on your plate, and you gotta eat it ! Thus, there's tension created by somthing other than the fear of stopping a bullet (or being eaten by a troll), which makes for better games, as I see it.
While I agree in principle, there are ways to handle this without the mini-captainjack23 said:
mum week delay.
For example, in my setting the Colonial Office inspection team visits the
colony about every three months, and between these visits the colony is
left to its own devices.
They could send their only starship to the sector capital within a few days
to ask for orders, but the Colonial Office there would react very unfriend-
ly, because the colonists are expected to solve their own problems, not to
yell for help.
So, the fact that a distant authority can be contacted within days does not
necessarily mean that this authority would expect to be contacted and as-
ked for orders.
It could just as well be seen as a sign of incompetence and a lack of lea-
dership skill to "call the boss" before every single decision.
In real life, during my short military career, my superiors indeed expected
me to report what problems had occured and had been solved by me, not
to carry my problems to them and ask them to solve them.
I understand the frustration, and while I'm not going to adopt the one-day jump change, I can see the appeal. I do think the rapid (relatively) jump times would change the structure and nature of the Imperium as pointed out by a couple of other posters.
I like the delay, and the isolation it provides. I also like the fact that it makes Travelling a much bigger deal and something that has to be carefully thought out.
Or the murder is in a remote outpost in the same system. (Ala Outland, maybe?) Planetary authorities don't necessarily have jurisdiction that far out, but they may want to hire someone to find out what is going on.
If the patron has interstellar concerns, sure it may take months, but it also explains why they'd hire the players rather than local help. For more local issues, the mission could be in a neighboring province of a balkanized world, on the moon base, or in an unexplored section of the same frontier world.
On the other hand, the evil nemesis has a week or two clear out of the system before the PCs return with reinforcements, leaving him free to hatch another evil plan.
Thus the low survival rate for Scouts. This also let's the PCs know that there isn't going to be help on the way...
IMHO, (and I'm not trying to bash you here... I've faced the same problems) you get these clunky and repetitive "solutions" when you try to build a narrative that conflicts with this underlying premise rather than builds on it.
All that being said, I absolutely agree it is a pain to explain the premise to new players, and I haven't figured out a good way to deal with contacts and allies who may be months away...
I like the delay, and the isolation it provides. I also like the fact that it makes Travelling a much bigger deal and something that has to be carefully thought out.
Klaus Kipling said:
Or the murder is in a remote outpost in the same system. (Ala Outland, maybe?) Planetary authorities don't necessarily have jurisdiction that far out, but they may want to hire someone to find out what is going on.
Klaus Kipling said:
If the patron has interstellar concerns, sure it may take months, but it also explains why they'd hire the players rather than local help. For more local issues, the mission could be in a neighboring province of a balkanized world, on the moon base, or in an unexplored section of the same frontier world.
Klaus Kipling said:
On the other hand, the evil nemesis has a week or two clear out of the system before the PCs return with reinforcements, leaving him free to hatch another evil plan.
Klaus Kipling said:
Thus the low survival rate for Scouts.
This also let's the PCs know that there isn't going to be help on the way... Klaus Kipling said:
IMHO, (and I'm not trying to bash you here... I've faced the same problems) you get these clunky and repetitive "solutions" when you try to build a narrative that conflicts with this underlying premise rather than builds on it.
All that being said, I absolutely agree it is a pain to explain the premise to new players, and I haven't figured out a good way to deal with contacts and allies who may be months away...
Rust: the biggest difference is in local worlds...
that colony of yours... they get whacked by a missed chunk of rock...turns the colony proper into a crater, but most of them got enough time to get out of town (say 4 hours)... They need help NOW...
in the 3I, that help is at least 2 weeks away. They are truly on their own. Sector BuCol won't even hear about it for months.
In your 1 jump per day, the neighbors can have help there in 2 days. SecBuCol can get a relief team in about 2 weeks.
This means you don't have the massive starvation. Lots of serious injuries can be relief-flown after initial stablization, in the "48 hour Window" for post stabilization on major traumas. Fewer amputations, etc.
It also means in system jumps are the fastest way to get anywhere in the system except for within a moon system. Mars becomes a day away at all times. Venus is worthless; it's inside the solar 100D limit. Jupiter and Saturn are a day out, too. All those resources are now reachable quick. Misjump to the outsystem? You probably have enough PP fuel to wait for "rescue" after sending the message. Even at 1000AU, the 6 days message time means the tanker can get there before the air run out and the temp hits killer-cold... because it arrives on day 7 or 8. And your jump was on day 2or 3, and so you arrived on day 3-5 of 14-28 days PP fuel.
that colony of yours... they get whacked by a missed chunk of rock...turns the colony proper into a crater, but most of them got enough time to get out of town (say 4 hours)... They need help NOW...
in the 3I, that help is at least 2 weeks away. They are truly on their own. Sector BuCol won't even hear about it for months.
In your 1 jump per day, the neighbors can have help there in 2 days. SecBuCol can get a relief team in about 2 weeks.
This means you don't have the massive starvation. Lots of serious injuries can be relief-flown after initial stablization, in the "48 hour Window" for post stabilization on major traumas. Fewer amputations, etc.
It also means in system jumps are the fastest way to get anywhere in the system except for within a moon system. Mars becomes a day away at all times. Venus is worthless; it's inside the solar 100D limit. Jupiter and Saturn are a day out, too. All those resources are now reachable quick. Misjump to the outsystem? You probably have enough PP fuel to wait for "rescue" after sending the message. Even at 1000AU, the 6 days message time means the tanker can get there before the air run out and the temp hits killer-cold... because it arrives on day 7 or 8. And your jump was on day 2or 3, and so you arrived on day 3-5 of 14-28 days PP fuel.
I see your point, and agree with much of it.AKAramis said:
This is why in my setting the fastest starships can travel up to 3 parsec
per day, but the nearest inhabited planet is 9 parsec away, and the sec-
tor capital is 14 parsec away.
By increasing the regional distances, the regional travel times remain al-
most unchanged, but travel over long distances becomes less time consu-
ming (and, often, less boring).
As for the in system travel, the starships' hyperdrives simply will not do
it. When they are turned on and immediately off again, the ship has al-
ready left the system far behind. It would be like trying to fly to the shop
at the corner with a jet fighter to buy cigarettes.
However, I fully agree that it is necessary to modify a usual Traveller set-
ting quite a bit to make faster ships work well without risking to ruin the
campaign.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
Yes, it's that way lots of places. Where it becomes a problem is when the magnitude and thus the consequences of the problem get really big. I'm guessing that your military career never involved such situations as having to decide to fire on (say) Soviet troops which have crossed the border during a claimed exercise when tensions are high. With no contact with higher command.
Unless you were a Brigadier +, you are absolutely expected to ask for instructions - because immediate input was available. The scenario then becomes one of (from a GM point of view) lots less tension due to player choice. "You are placed thru to NATO HQ. You are given orders to engage". Sure, the general may be insane or freaking, but now its just doing what you are told.
To try and make that more than just a shootemup (if that's your goal) you have to come up with all kinds of reasons the players are out of touch. Radios are jammed. Land lines are dead. Civilian phone lines are dead. Your cell phone is dead, dammit. The messenegers motorcycle is in the shop. The internet is down. So is the laser link. It's really smoky with....IR and UV blocking smoke.....etc etc. *
It's really exactly those big decisions which a player (assuming he isn't playing a GHQ general officer) is absolutely required to report back and do what he his told. The small stuff ( a drunk trooper under your command popped an allied officer in a bar) gets "Don't bug me".
I've found that there is a bit of a break in period for players o get used to the mix of modern communication speed in some places (planetside) and pre industrial speeed elsewhere. But, they do that in D&D all the time, right? Now, I admit I'm lucky - all of my current players are either history geeks or have read Patrick O'brian and/or CS Forrester and have the age of sail thing down.
* yes, I'm assuming that your mil service was on the western side of the line - if not, apologies, and substitute STAVKA and NATO Able-Archer as needed.
Captain, I think we are not really far apart in our opinions on this.
I am just trying to find a way to reconcile a "regional time lag" of the
kind you describe and consider useful (as I do) with shorter travel ti-
mes over long distances (which my setting requires - otherwise the
characters would never be able to represent their colony in Terra's
diplomatic circles).
I am just trying to find a way to reconcile a "regional time lag" of the
kind you describe and consider useful (as I do) with shorter travel ti-
mes over long distances (which my setting requires - otherwise the
characters would never be able to represent their colony in Terra's
diplomatic circles).
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:Captain, I think we are not really far apart in our opinions on this.
I am just trying to find a way to reconcile a "regional time lag" of the
kind you describe and consider useful (as I do) with shorter travel ti-
mes over long distances (which my setting requires - otherwise the
characters would never be able to represent their colony in Terra's
diplomatic circles).
Understood - and don't worry - I'm not about to go mental on you.
In fact, I can see the issues - I tend to run campaigns which intentionally want the players on their own. The diplomacy campaign is a very interesting idea it may well be one of the places where the time lag does cause more problems than it solves -for pre telegraph diplomacy, one would have to be be VERY high ranking to be sent on such a mission. And trusted. And reliable. None of which usually fit my players, anyway....they'd be stuch as support staff on the level of drivers and bodyguards. Not players.
how about this instead?
jump 1 goes 1 parsec in one week
jump 2 goes 2 parsecs in a week OR 1 parsec in 1/2 week
jump 3 goes 3 parsecs in a week OR 1 parsec in 1/3 week ( a little over 2 days )
jump 4 goes 4 parsecs in a week OR 1 parsec in 1/4 week ( a little under 2 days )
etc.
jump 6 can go a parsec in a little over a day
jump 1 goes 1 parsec in one week
jump 2 goes 2 parsecs in a week OR 1 parsec in 1/2 week
jump 3 goes 3 parsecs in a week OR 1 parsec in 1/3 week ( a little over 2 days )
jump 4 goes 4 parsecs in a week OR 1 parsec in 1/4 week ( a little under 2 days )
etc.
jump 6 can go a parsec in a little over a day
What a fascinating discussion this has been.
I find the various forms of FTL travel in SF to be one of the more interesting ways to build campaign settings. Traveller has become one of the standard models, and in fact, the game I play most uses something similar. In the Star*Drive setting for the older Alternity game system, the size of your ship affects how fast it is. Much like Traveller, one "jump" called a starfall, always lasts exactly 121 hours (about 5 days). Further, when you arrive ("make starrise"), you have to recharge the drive for d4+1 days. The distance traveled with one starfall depends on the size of the ship:
Small craft (i.e. PC sized freighters and scoutships) = 5-8 ly/starfall
Frigates/Destroyers/similar size civilian ships = 10-15 ly/starfall
Cruisers = 20-25 ly/starfall
Dreadnaughts/battleships = 35 ly/starfall
Fortress ships (3+ kilometer long) = 50 ly/starfall.
Larger ships can ferry smaller ships through "drivespace" and this is one method of increasing the traveling ability of PCs--if they latch onto a heavy freighter that makes 30 ly starfalls, they will get where they are going much faster than if they make their own way via a 5 ly stardrive.
So, this is obviously similar to the Imperium. Star Trek or Star Wars is the other end of the spectrum--completely freeform FTL that is ridiculously fast. Most ships in Star Trek really end up moving at the speed of plot, and the same is certainly true for Star Wars.
I agree, given my experiences GMing Star*Drive, that it can be a little odd planning around multi-month travel times, but that has to be accepted as part of the setting, otherwise you might as well default to Star Trek Wars SpeedofPlotDrives.
I find the various forms of FTL travel in SF to be one of the more interesting ways to build campaign settings. Traveller has become one of the standard models, and in fact, the game I play most uses something similar. In the Star*Drive setting for the older Alternity game system, the size of your ship affects how fast it is. Much like Traveller, one "jump" called a starfall, always lasts exactly 121 hours (about 5 days). Further, when you arrive ("make starrise"), you have to recharge the drive for d4+1 days. The distance traveled with one starfall depends on the size of the ship:
Small craft (i.e. PC sized freighters and scoutships) = 5-8 ly/starfall
Frigates/Destroyers/similar size civilian ships = 10-15 ly/starfall
Cruisers = 20-25 ly/starfall
Dreadnaughts/battleships = 35 ly/starfall
Fortress ships (3+ kilometer long) = 50 ly/starfall.
Larger ships can ferry smaller ships through "drivespace" and this is one method of increasing the traveling ability of PCs--if they latch onto a heavy freighter that makes 30 ly starfalls, they will get where they are going much faster than if they make their own way via a 5 ly stardrive.
So, this is obviously similar to the Imperium. Star Trek or Star Wars is the other end of the spectrum--completely freeform FTL that is ridiculously fast. Most ships in Star Trek really end up moving at the speed of plot, and the same is certainly true for Star Wars.
I agree, given my experiences GMing Star*Drive, that it can be a little odd planning around multi-month travel times, but that has to be accepted as part of the setting, otherwise you might as well default to Star Trek Wars SpeedofPlotDrives.
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