What a difference a day makes....

1 week in jump. It's starting to bug me. I understand the initial reasonings, but it really cuts off a lot of plot hooks.

For instance: there's been a murder on a remote base or outside normal jurisdiction, and the player's boss at HQ calls them in to investigate. Except, by the time they get there, the crime is, at the very least, 2 weeks old...

or

The player's patron gives them a mission to such and such a planet, a few subsectors away. The trip will take months.

or

The PC's escape a trap and jump out-system, so the henchmen sends a courier back to the evil nemesis to tell them where he thinks they're going. Except, by the time the nemesis gets the message and jumps in, all he sees is the player's ship jumping out again.

or

How long do the IISS wait before declaring their ships overdue for return. A year? 2 years? Scratch that rescue mission then, as the crew will probably be dead long before the IISS starts looking for them.

Of course, there are narrative ways around these issues, but they end up being clunky and repetitive, like trying to make sense out of nonsense UWPs.

No as I said before, I understand the reasoning. Emulate the age of sail, put the players a long way from the chain of command, the help isn't coming, so be self reliant, etc etc.

Except, sometimes the chain of command is a useful way of getting the players where you need them, or you might need to reinforce the baddies because you underestimated the players firepower. Or, if the players use nukes on a planet, how do you keep them around long enough for the Marines to find out about it and come storming in? How do bounty hunters work, when the source of the price might be a year away from the place where you get your man (unless the bounty is frekkin massive, it'll cost you more to collect, in dinners alone, than it's worth).

Thing is, if you change jump from 1 week to 1 day, a lot of these problems get solved, without taking anything away from the setting at large.

  • There's still no FTL radio, so you still need a ship to send a message. Even with a days gap, no message can be instant, but a conversation by correspondence will take less than years to say hello.

    It also lets banking and credit arrangements easier to conceive.

    You're days from the chain of command, rather than weeks - you still have independence, but help and/or oversight is still conceivable.

    The players are not kicking their heels every other week. Sure, you can gloss over jump time but some players like to play out every second. What about not developing relationships with your crewmates, or dealing with loads of faceless passengers. Starts to become accounting, not role playing.

    Travelling further than a few parsecs now becomes less of a multi month campaign. It's still time consuming and an ordeal, but you no longer celebrate more than one birthday on a single journey. If the ref wants to, he can skip out a journey to up the pace of the campaign, but a month is more reasonable than a year.

    A 'race against time' scenario is now possible; with 1 week jumps the only viable time to race again is something months ahead. That somehow lacks urgency.

    With 1 week jump, characters doing a lot of Travelling will earn more rewards (as in increased skills) than those actually playing.

    Changing jump to 1 day does not appreciably alter the default setting, and therefore the OTU, in any meaningful or significant way

I see lots of advantages, and not many disadvantages. Certainly makes it easier to ref games on the fly (especially in our current era, where we are used to instant communications, and therefore inspiration often comes in forms that require a swifter timeframe than weeks or months). Instead of pure age of sail, it's more like our modern age (with transcontinental aircraft and trains), but without phones, radio, or the net.

What does anyone else think? :)

(note, I'm not expecting or clamouring for a rules change, just positing a talking point)
 
Alternatively, keep the 1-week jump time but create a smaller setting. The Core Worlds should be anything within 1-2 jumps of the capital using the best available drive; intermediate areas should be up to 4 jumps from the capital using the best drive; the rest should be frontier and beyond. Most of the economy is within a few weeks at most and thus banking would be simpler.

To make things even easier, add severely limited FTL communications. The arrays should cost A LOT, be stationary and have a tiny bandwidth, so you can't just "phone home" but rather send and receive short telegrams at high expense. This will make the economy even simpler, yet keep players independent, especially when in a frontier system with no array.
 
Since we use the hyperdrive in our setting, with average speeds of about
one to three parsec per day, we do not have the time lag problem that
comes with the one week jump drive - and it indeed makes things a lot
easier to handle.
 
All good solutions, but either require ATU's or a none-jump type of game. (Which are all good things, btw).

To use published material, ie: The Spinward Marches, or the Solomani Rim, the timelag really starts to disrupt the kinds of things either the players or the ref can do.

What I'm saying is, changing jump to one day from one week does not appreciably alter the OTU setting, as in, you can use what is published as is, but opens up the choices for both 'sides'. The change is dramatic, but almost non-disruptive.

My evaluation of the Spinward Marches is, that with one week jump, you do need to stick to one (or maybe 2) subsector. Problem is that few subsectors have a good, wide range of worlds. IMO, D268, Lunion, Regina, and Five Sisters are the optimum subsectors to stage games in.
 
During the original Age of Sail, a message from London could take months to arrive in the Colonies. People just lived so much slower over long distances, and lived for the long haul.

It was much the same over land, too, before the telegraph, radio and the internet. You'll not believe how long it would once have taken for correspondence to travel between distant locations where there was no reliable postal service, and where the fastest means of travel was a really swift horse.

Even in system, light speed lag can create problems. The shortest communication signal lag between Earth and Mars, at those worlds' closest approach, in about 20 minutes. Between Regina and Darida Naval Base, it could be ten or twelve hours.

You just have to adjust the time scales down a bit, and accept that communications from afar are going to be slow, meaning you're fully responsible for decisions you have to take right there and then. You can only hope that, in a few weeks or months, the word from the Capital is basically to do what you did anyway.
 
Klaus Kipling said:
For instance: there's been a murder on a remote base or outside normal jurisdiction, and the player's boss at HQ calls them in to investigate. Except, by the time they get there, the crime is, at the very least, 2 weeks old...

This is one of the reasons the Third Imperium has been described as "ruled by men, not by laws", why the member worlds are self-governing for the most part, why the Zhodani stopped expanding voluntarily, and why the various large-scale wars actually lasted some time.

All of these things change if the capital (be it the Emperor's capital or just a Duke's palace) is only three months away vs 18 months, if the shipyard will have only six days instead of at least six weeks to restock before the ships it just sent out to battle will come limping back, if the fleet really *can* be expected to visit every port of call in the subsector to show the flag on a regular basis, or if "calling the Marines" only take three days.
 
GypsyComet said:
Klaus Kipling said:
For instance: there's been a murder on a remote base or outside normal jurisdiction, and the player's boss at HQ calls them in to investigate. Except, by the time they get there, the crime is, at the very least, 2 weeks old...

This is one of the reasons the Third Imperium has been described as "ruled by men, not by laws", why the member worlds are self-governing for the most part, why the Zhodani stopped expanding voluntarily, and why the various large-scale wars actually lasted some time.

All of these things change if the capital (be it the Emperor's capital or just a Duke's palace) is only three months away vs 18 months, if the shipyard will have only six days instead of at least six weeks to restock before the ships it just sent out to battle will come limping back, if the fleet really *can* be expected to visit every port of call in the subsector to show the flag on a regular basis, or if "calling the Marines" only take three days.

All true, (and Alex, all your points too) but that's more part of the world building exercise rather than a 'play area' consideration.

I think the bone of contention is that my players, and any new player to Traveller (and so not steeped in the OTU like *most* posters here), find that paradigm unexpected and hard to take in. They might rationally understand and agree with the limitations, but instinctively they act to a more familiar paradigm, that is, one where you can contact someone and get a reply in the same or next game session.

Makes allies and contacts more useful too. I think they're a great addition to the game, but of very marginal utility unless you are in the same star system.

I'm not saying you can't play with the setting as is, but that the very, very long correspondence/travel times can easily become an obstacle, especially when you're playing it by ear. And it really does put paid to some types of scenario, planned or not. Also, characters can often spend a really long time just waiting around for stuff to catch up with them.

Sometimes communication needs to travel at the speed of the plot. ;)
 
Postscript:

We could use the Effect of the Astrogation roll to reduce the time spent in jump, say 7 days - (Effect/2), or even simply - (Effect). This would make a top astrogator highly sought after, and exceptionally useful. Makes a 'race' more likely too...

To balance that with the default trade rules (ie: 2 weeks per system), increase the diameter of the planets/stars gravitic shadow, so increase the amount of time in N-space getting to and from the jump point.

This has the added bonus of more real space travel, so more opportunity for pirates and derelicts and other space oogiboogis. :)
 
Hmm. I'm currently running a d20 modern campaign, and all the things you're having issues with in Traveller, I'm having issues with in my campaign - only the other end of the spectrum - communications is too fast.

FREX, last session, the PCs kidnapped a bad guy from his home in FL. They screwed up, and there was a witness. So the first thing they do is call their cop buddy ally in CA and ask him to notify them asap if an alert goes out for them or even for anyone coming close matching their descriptions as they high-tail it back across the US.

The fast communications make the situation tough for them as players, and me as a GM. They screw up too much, and to keep things "realistic', I have to have the "authorities" issuing APBs and the like for their PCs - putting the entire campaign in danger of them getting caught.

On the flip side, any ally or contact I give them is pretty much available to them with a phone call. Patron gives them a job, and things go south - they can call the guy for advice - or get in trouble for not calling him.


By the time this campaign ends, I'll be longing for the delays of 1 week jumps.
 
I think, comrade, all you needed to do (and still do) is explain the setting limitations. I'm playing 50 Fathoms now, so I pulled out the map, told them ho movement works (in 5 seconds) and said, "So? See what you can do with that..." The game being the game and the world being the world, they could easily see how long it would take to go places, how much food they needed as a crew, etc etc.

Once I get them into Traveller, I can't see this as a problem. Of course, on planet, things might be (depending on tech level) as fast as modern Earth. That means, though, you still have the particular tension of "can't beg for quick help outside this system," which isn't a bad thing, but a GM tool.

That said, the book does outline how you might speed up travel. Heck, you can add an "ansible" if you like, i.e. faster-than-light communications. IYTU and all that.
 
Klaus Kipling said:
Changing jump to 1 day does not appreciably alter the default setting, and therefore the OTU, in any meaningful or significant way

What does anyone else think?
Well, I gonna break from the other "old timers" and say that I think it is a great idea. I like that you reject the use of FTL communication, and stick with the OTU "speed of travel" limitation. I also agree that changing one week into one day does not have any meaningful impact on the established OTU history. It still takes a long time to cross a sector, and it is a really long frikkin way from Regina to Capital.

I say go for it. It meets you and your players' needs. It allows the use of the OTU unmodified. It works.

Looks "win-win" to me.
 
The only problem I have with the time lag is in regards to business and banking. How would a credit card work or a debit card? Right now there is approximatly a 2 day lag between using the card and the charge showing up. Or would people in the future only use cash (weird, that would actually be backtracking!! :lol: )?

And how would paying your monthly starship mortgage be done? If the Bank of Regina has the loan, would you have to go back to that system every month? Not much time for trading. And if the bank had multiple branches then how would their communication hold up? How long would it take before you would be in default? And what happens if you are in a sector that never heard of that bank? How would you pay the bill?

Just some thoughts...
 
cbrunish said:
And how would paying your monthly starship mortgage be done? If the Bank of Regina has the loan, would you have to go back to that system every month? Not much time for trading. And if the bank had multiple branches then how would their communication hold up? How long would it take before you would be in default? And what happens if you are in a sector that never heard of that bank? How would you pay the bill?

See the Paying the Bills thread for ideas on that.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38378
 
Somewhat beyond MGT's remit... but TNE's Virus would be interesting if there was a 1-day jump time. It'd spread a lot quicker and may not have a chance to mutate to less immediately homicidal strains...
 
daryen said:
I also agree that changing one week into one day does not have any meaningful impact on the established OTU history. It still takes a long time to cross a sector, and it is a really long frikkin way from Regina to Capital.
I disagree. For the purposes of the PCs, and current state of the 3I, it probably won't matter unless some sort of history needs to be referenced for the players, but it would have a meaningful impact on several OTU "historical" events.

For the sake of illustration, I'm going to reference the events surrounding Strephon's death in the MT timeline, but similar differences would apply to the periods around the Emporer's of the Flag, Solomani Rim war, the 5 Frontier wars with the Zhodani, etc. The only reason I'm using that controversial event as a reference is simply because it's well documented.

In the MT OTU universe, Strephon is assassinated on 132-1116. Archduke Norris of Regina is notified of that event via J-6 Naval courier on or around 342-1116 - 30 weeks. Public news of the event arrived at Regina via x-boat on or around 124-1117 - 51 weeks. Now consider that Dulinor's declaration of himself as Emporer on Dlan happened only 7 weeks after he assassinated Strephon. By the time the news reached Norris, and he would have been able to respond with a fleet, over a year would have passed - by that time, the war would have been pretty much decided.

Now consider those events if jump only took a day rather than a week. Norris's forces would have been able to respond within two months. Two months really isn't a significant amount of time considering the significance of the event. This changes the face of the Rebellion considerably - it would still probably happen, but a lot differently. Rather than the 7-9 factions that MegaTraveller details, you're more likely to have only 3-4 factions. With fewer factions, it's likely that 1 or 2 of those is going to come out on top, rather than the disintegration that occured.


If it works for the OP, more power to him. He should just be aware that certain types of events will be affected, which could change the history of certain events (should that be an issue that comes up during play) and it WILL change the 3I's (and other government's) response to certain things in different ways. None of which is insurmountable, it's just a potential issue of which one should be aware of the effects before making that kind of change.
 
daryen said:
Klaus Kipling said:
Changing jump to 1 day does not appreciably alter the default setting, and therefore the OTU, in any meaningful or significant way

What does anyone else think?
Well, I gonna break from the other "old timers" and say that I think it is a great idea. I like that you reject the use of FTL communication, and stick with the OTU "speed of travel" limitation. I also agree that changing one week into one day does not have any meaningful impact on the established OTU history. It still takes a long time to cross a sector, and it is a really long frikkin way from Regina to Capital.

I say go for it. It meets you and your players' needs. It allows the use of the OTU unmodified. It works.

Looks "win-win" to me.

As someone who majored in history...
If you can't get troops there within 6 months, generally, you can't control it. If you can't get orders to them in 3 months, or data back from them in 3 months, they are beyond your control. Any rebellion that is unchecked for 6 months is likely to succeed.

You can't directly control anything past about 3 days ride; past that point, you need to have a local man-on-the-scene.

It's been said that, historically, Loyalty is only good for 6 months... your loyal man is only likely to remain loyal if he gets feedback within 6 months or so. Carefully groomed loyal men, a year. Longer than that, and they are most likely going to be tempted by the very authority they need to function as your representative.

So changing the jump from a week to a day makes the imperium about a month to cross edge to edge, instead of 8 months via J6. It puts most local authorities well within the "monitoring range" for policy making. It allows for a more centralized authority.
 
Aramis, these are very interesting informations. :D

These consequences of time lags would make a most useful tool for
the design of much of my setting's background history.

Is there any specific literature on this subject you would recommend,
because I really would like to learn more about it ?

Thank you ! :D
 
rust said:
Aramis, these are very interesting informations. :D

These consequences of time lags would make a most useful tool for
the design of much of my setting's background history.

Is there any specific literature on this subject you would recommend,
because I really would like to learn more about it ?

Thank you ! :D

It's a rule of thumb discussed by professors I've taken courses from; they didn't see eye to eye on much, but all agreed on the 6 month rule. Incidentally, it was just about 6 months march to the ends of the Roman Empire, and Britain was right at 3 months from Rome... until the sack of Rome denied use of the roads!

The Loyalty of men is discussed by Machiavelli in The Prince, which if you have not read, you probably should not be building empire settings.
 
Thank you ! :D

I did know Il Principe, indeed a most useful book, especially toge-
ther with Sun Tzu's The Art of War and some of the other "classics".

However, the "six months rule" was new to me, and it comes very
handy. :D
 
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