Weapon Damage Output Balance?

A couple points:

No one at any point in this thread said that wearing cloth armor was not something characters should do.

Several lines in Swordtarts response (Which was the last actual response where an argument was made and not just posting images) imply it. For example, the fact that smart rounds would have nothing to lock on to if you're not wearing armour, or the fact that if you are known to wear armor (Cloth specifically mentioned) people will escalate.
If your opponent knows you routinely wear cloth, they will tool up accordingly.
Any society that can produce a particular type of armour will generally be able to recognise that armour as armour
Smart rounds can home in on armour (somehow). If you are not wearing it there is nothing to home in on.
Even in those cities where there is a real chance of being shot most people do not routinely wear body armour even though it is commonly available.
Traveller does not impose this at a game mechanics level as if you really need to wear armour it is comfortable enough when it's protection might be needed. That doesn't mean it is sufficiently comfortable wear it all day and when off-duty etc.
TL10 cloth is already implausibly light for the protection it offers.
So it was mentioned. My apologies for not quoting them specifically.

As for the next point:
Second, regarding your point about combat frequency, that's a game play choice. And, again, the point was made that the table should be deciding what experience they are looking for because Traveller offers a very wide range of options about what kind of game play you can have. If you want to feature a lot of gunplay, you can certainly do that. If you don't, you don't have to.

The topic of the thread was about weapon/armor balance. Traveller has options for weapons and armor that range from fisticuffs and t-shirts to plasma rifles and powered armor. It is very easy to have one side of the weapon vs armor equation get far ahead of the other. And if that happens combat will tend to be unsatisfactory, either because one side can't hurt the other side or because characters will get killed in one shot regularly.

Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to feature in your game. If you want to play Hammer's Slammers, that's great. If you want to play Leverage, that's also great. But if you are playing the former, you need to have different gear than if you are playing the latter.
Yeah. That's exactly my problem. When I'm GMing a game, I don't want to have to go through every option that exists and stamp it approved or not. If I have to do that, I'll just run something else. Which I do. Then I'll tell people that the game I used to run has poor balance and requires the GM to handle it themselves to avoid very unsatisfactory outcomes; which it does.

The answer may very well be 'A toolkit doesn't have to concern itself with that kind of thing' to which I would say, fair enough, but that doesn't change that it is designed in such a way that requires careful GM attention to get satisfactory outcomes, which makes me less likely to GM it because there are many, many games which don't make me do that work.

Edit: I would also add that I have not seen a single GM handle gear so delicately, out of myself and four others. We all treated the game as "Is it published in a current-era book? Do you have the money? Does it make sense to be able to purchase that in this environment/can you make a broker or streetwise roll? You can get the thing."

If people are supposed to be more carefully deciding what to ban and what to not ban, it isn't clearly advertised. I certainly didn't think to do it at the time.
 
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I think this goes under risk management.

Check whether body armour is permitted in the jurisdiction.

In either case, be discrete in wearing it.

You know, umbrella shields.


 
The rules have the expected outcome: If you are in paramilitary or military grade armor, civilian weapons are not going to do much. Conversely, if you aren't in high end armor, military weapons are going to end your career quickly. I tend to think that is as much "balance" as necessary, given it isn't a level based combat grind game.

On the larger point, if you want a different game for every experience, that's certainly valid. Traveller is intended to allow you to run pretty much any kind of sci fi game, so it has different needs than a single target game.

You can buy one game to play the Expanse, another game to play Hammer's Slammers, a third game to play Honor Harrington, a fourth to play Aliens, and additional games to play Earth 2, Polesotechnic League Traders, and so on. And, obviously, if the only thing you want to play is a particular kind of sci fi, you can just by the one game that does only that.

Since I can play all those things (and more) with Traveller, it will naturally have rules for things that are not relevant to my campaign. Plus, if my hapless free traders end up in the middle of a shooting war, I can actually break out the already existing rules for that stuff that doesn't normally matter.
 
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Edit: I would also add that I have not seen a single GM handle gear so delicately, out of myself and four others. We all treated the game as "Is it published in a current-era book? Do you have the money? Does it make sense to be able to purchase that in this environment/can you make a broker or streetwise roll? You can get the thing."
That's fine. That's just leaving it up to the characters to do what's necessary based on the information provided. If they can afford combat armor and get away with wearing in the current circumstances, they'll either dominate less well equipped people or be able to survive the military grade weaponry of their opponents. I don't think that counts as imbalanced game mechanics. That's what *should* happen.

You don't have to ban any equipment. You just have to be aware that there's two different grades of weapons/armor: civilian and military and military dominates civilian gear. IF you want to have combats AND you want them to be "balanced" (neither of which are automatic expectations), THEN you need to ensure that your scenarios are appropriate to the gear the players have.
 
In terms of fairness, if lower tiered weapons are lethal to the unprotected, if all sides are handicapped with being unprotected, no escalation is required.

You don't have to prevent player characters from wearing any form of protection, just point out potential consequences of doing so, in that particular jurisdiction.
 
You don't have to prevent player characters from wearing any form of protection, just point out potential consequences of doing so, in that particular jurisdiction.
exactly. Armour is a type of clothing, and as Shakespeare wrote, "The apparel oft proclaims the man", or as Mark Twain put it "Naked people have very little influence in society" - the same could be said of amoured people.

In general, you need clothes appropriate to the context. If you are dressed for a war zone, people will think that is just good sense. In a war zone.

Most of what PCs do is not combat. You want to buy and sell cargoes, influence officials, sneak into places by talking your way past guards, get served in restaurants, buy supplies, obtain medical care, check into hotels, follow people around without being seen, convince fellow scientists that the organism you have discovered is very dangerous, socialize at the pub to find out local rumours, hike over rough terrain, fit through a small window,for example. All of these things are made very much more difficult, or even impossible if you are in armour, mostly for social reasons, but sometimes legal reasons or because of size, endurance, weather and comfort.

Many social rolls, and other non-combat skills are just going to fail if you're in armour, and certain other tasks will get minuses too. Players do lots of different kinds of things, so the Referee really needs to decide on these things. Characters who use armour frequently will be aware of these issues, so it is good to warn in advance - "you won't fit in there if you have combat armour on", or "if you wear that armour to that party, everyone will think you are ridiculous, and you will become a social pariah, and you won't get them to do the the thing you want them to do" (you might warn the players with high soc characters, who would understand this, and not warn the low soc ones....)

Having the right armour on at the right time is really, really important for not being killed: this is part of the game - if you know that the ambuscade is imminent, since you reconned the enemy camp: now is the time to suck it up and put on that hot armour. Or you show up to the fancy party in battledress at just the nick of time, which is the right move, since you found out the baddies are planning to gun everyone down and you can save the day etc.

Likewise, have the right kinds of weapons for the occasion is important. They may search you going into a location and taking your gun along is a risk - but maybe this time that risk is exactly the risk you need to take. You might need to have a big gun with you sometimes, but on the other hand, not having a gun and seeming harmless or friendly is the right way to navigate a situation successfully.

Make the wrong decision, and you might be facing ACRs in your dinner jacket, or conversely eating shrimp canapes and trying to convince a CEO to back your project while wearing battledress.

Same goes for ammo choice. I assume that NPCs will often have different types of ammo available, mainly different AP levels, and that is just good sense, and it is what the PCs do. There are often concerns about over-penetration; in most situations there are delicate, important and expensive things you could break (on spaceships), or innocent bystanders you can hit. But if the enemy is wearing high-spec armour you need high AP, and if something breaks, it breaks. So you need, and have, both kinds, and might have to switch mags before shooting. This tends to level the playing field a bit. It also makes the players a lot less obsessed with wearing armour everywhere - since the advantage it confers can be nullified relatively cheaply, and often is.

Traveller has lots of different kinds of games that players can end up involved in. Part of the meta-game is understanding which game you are going into at a particular moment, and bringing the kit appropriate to that game.
 
Just invest in a personal energy shield.

Armour value 12 although you can make an electronics roll and increase it based on effect.
"Personal Energy Shield
There are times when armour is needed but the appearance of having armour is not. Nobles visiting hostile territory, military officers inspecting
undisciplined militia, diplomats making first contact and others may require defensive armour without looking as if they are geared up for combat. The personal energy shield creates an invisible gravitic field around the wearer, which repels ballistic and all energy attacks except lasers. The shield is powered by a small, unobtrusive battery that may be worn at the belt or beneath the clothing in order to conceal its presence. A standard battery provides six hours of protection.
A skilled wearer can overload the battery to get more Protection by making a Difficult (10+) Electronics (computers) check to recalibrate the device. Success with an Effect of 0-3 provides Protection +18 but reduces the battery life by one half. Effect of 4–5 provides Protection +24 with one half the battery life. An Effect of 6+ provides Protection +24 with no reduction in battery life. The Traveller must reattempt the calibration with each recharge of the battery."

and yes, this is allowed TL15 charted space technology.

Since you can use the CSC rules to have a version at TL 13 with disadvantages...
 
Just invest in a personal energy shield.

Armour value 12 although you can make an electronics roll and increase it based on effect.
"Personal Energy Shield
There are times when armour is needed but the appearance of having armour is not. Nobles visiting hostile territory, military officers inspecting
undisciplined militia, diplomats making first contact and others may require defensive armour without looking as if they are geared up for combat. The personal energy shield creates an invisible gravitic field around the wearer, which repels ballistic and all energy attacks except lasers. The shield is powered by a small, unobtrusive battery that may be worn at the belt or beneath the clothing in order to conceal its presence. A standard battery provides six hours of protection.
A skilled wearer can overload the battery to get more Protection by making a Difficult (10+) Electronics (computers) check to recalibrate the device. Success with an Effect of 0-3 provides Protection +18 but reduces the battery life by one half. Effect of 4–5 provides Protection +24 with one half the battery life. An Effect of 6+ provides Protection +24 with no reduction in battery life. The Traveller must reattempt the calibration with each recharge of the battery."

and yes, this is allowed TL15 charted space technology.

Well, that post must have been painful . . . 😂

Since you can use the CSC rules to have a version at TL 13 with disadvantages...

One thing that supplement writers need to start disciplining themselves into doing in light of the "prototype-" and "early-" tech rules is when assigning a TL to a newly introduced item, to decide when they envision it first appearing (either generally or at all), and then assign that TL as the Early or Prototype TL, and then adjust the assigned "Standard" published TL upwards from that baseline.
 
I was going to say that all the armour angst goes away if you use called shots, then I discovered they are only a thing with ship combat!?
I've been using them in personal combat all along anyway. Any skilled shooter is going to take the -2DM to shoot you where your armour aint.
I liked DeHammer's idea of doubling the damage from effect. If the damage gets too high in practise, maybe only double the effect damage on a called shot?
 
I don't like called shot systems. I feel like Traveller's combat is suitably dangerous as it is. If your table want to play a game where snipers are one-shotting your players on the regular, that's fine. But armor values already include factors for not covering certain areas.

IMHO, you would need to change the armor system to reflect the existence of hit location or called shots. A cloth jacket is less armor than a full cloth suit because it already factors in that some hits will be in unprotected areas. So you'd need to change it to something like AV8 on arms or torso, but AV0 on legs or head. And so on. A lot of work for not much return.

Players usually love to make headshots but are less sanguine about getting headshotted in return, for some reason.
 
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