I have an issue with stacking AP on AP, but am still on the fence.
Weapon Damage Output Balance?
- Thread starter DeHammer
- Start date
Except with fully automatic fire where you make can three attack rolls in a combat round, or if you dual wield. A burst also uses multiple rounds but is only a single attack (or shot). Your experience is apparently not universal.
I am not sure what the difference between saying a magazine holds 9 rounds and each attack is 1 round vs a magazine holds 9 attacks worth of ammunition with respect to tracking ammunition expenditure. It does make everything far less intuitive though if you abstract it away. Only if you say magazines are infinite does the tracking go away.
Counting rounds fired is fairly common practice for experienced shooters even under combat conditions.
Not fuzzy to me. A magazine holds 15 rounds is unequivocal. Taking one round off a magazine of 15 rounds is no more taxing than taking 1 attack off a magazine of 15 attacks. If you find a 15 loose rounds of ammunition though you would like to know how many magazines that will fill.
CT specified explicitly that the body pistol held 6 cartridges and the automatic pistol held 15 cartridges.
Megatraveller states the same explicitly.
TNE uses some different guns, but states the capacity in rounds (and even goes so far as to say how much each individual round weighs).
Traveller 4 specifies shots but again it is an explicit magazine capacity not number of attacks.
I honest can't say for Traveller 5 as it isn't even a game as far as I can tell just a set of building blocks from which a game could be constructed.
MGT1 might abstract it.
MGT2 which is under discussion also uses those terms in many of its publications and even explicitly in the CRB, you have just decided that is "wrong".
Sorry, I think you have this plain wrong.
It also doesn't say an attack is 6 seconds. A combat round is 6 seconds but that is a minor action as well as the major action. As it can also be 3 minor actions (presumably of 2 seconds each) there is circumstantial evidence that a major action is only 4 seconds. However a combat round also allows for any number of reactions, so actually it is the duration of the major action that is fuzzy, not the number of rounds in a magazine.
I think you have chosen to nail your colours to the wrong mast.
shirgall
Cosmic Mongoose
I think we’re talking past each other a bit. I’m not disputing that Traveller tracks ammunition in rounds or cartridges. It clearly does, across many editions. What I’m saying is narrower: damage in MGT2 is resolved per successful attack, with Effect applied once, and the rules never state that damage dice represent a single projectile.
Auto and Burst already show the separation: ammo expenditure can change without changing how many damage rolls or Effects are applied. That’s the abstraction I’m pointing at. I’m not proposing changing magazine sizes or damage values. I think the existing damage numbers work fine as an aggregate over a six-second exchange.
At this point I think it’s an interpretation choice about abstraction level, not a rules error, so I’m happy to leave it there.
I was confused when you said magazine capacity terminology was a bit fuzzy.
No-one ever argued that damage was resolved per separate attack with effect applied once (though of course with full auto fire you make up to three attacks each of which may have a different effect and the effect is applied to each attack).
The rules also don't say that the damage dice represents multiple projectiles other than by exception with respect to Bursts and Full Auto. Burst tells you precisely how many rounds are being used to cause the damage from the burst attack and Full Auto is simply three burst attacks with the number of rounds precisely defined.
That understood I am also content to leave it here.
No-one ever argued that damage was resolved per separate attack with effect applied once (though of course with full auto fire you make up to three attacks each of which may have a different effect and the effect is applied to each attack).
The rules also don't say that the damage dice represents multiple projectiles other than by exception with respect to Bursts and Full Auto. Burst tells you precisely how many rounds are being used to cause the damage from the burst attack and Full Auto is simply three burst attacks with the number of rounds precisely defined.
That understood I am also content to leave it here.
Okay, I would have expected someone to have mentioned this early in the replies, but I didn't see it.
Do not forget that Effect adds directly to damage, and is not capped. And that there are NUMEROUS ways to get to hit bonuses, which also feeds into that.
So, yeah, on the face of it the weapon damages seem low. But once you have a skilled attacker taking time to aim at close ranges (or scoped at longer ones), maybe with tech assistance, you can get the job done.
Naturally, firing an autopistol at battledress is likely to be futile. That's intended and logical. But Battledress is more akin to a light armoured vehicle - you don't get very far with small arms against those either.
Quick example, using normal circumstances:
Crewmember (gun drawn) is investigating a disturbance in the cargo hold. They turn a corner and come face to face with a hijacker. Neither gets surprise, but the Crew gets Initiative.
Crew is Gun Combat 2, Dex mod +1. They take a Minor Action to Aim (+1) and use their Significant Action to shoot. Range is Short (+1), the Crewmember's Autopistol has a laser sight (+1). Total modifiers to hit are +6.
Let's assume an average roll to hit of 7... that gives an effect of +5, so the damage rolled is 3D6-3+5. Let's say that's also an average roll of 10, so 12 damage. Dangerous to the unarmoured, something that an armour 10 target can shrug off.
But if the rolls are a little bit better than average, things change rapidly. If the to hit roll is 10, the effect is +8; if the damage roll is 13 (-3, +8), that's 18 points - likely taking an unarmoured target out, and wounding that armour 10 one.
If the crewmember were instead armed with a shotgun using solid shot (4D) average damage is 14, not 7.5 and that armour 10 target is in trouble even on average rolls.
The end result is that typically a Traveller firefight between armoured combatants will be a series of misses, glancing hits and minor penetrations, until someone manages a lucky shot (which does include one side being overmatched in skill and equipment. In that situation the better side is much more likely to get the lucky shot first).
Also worth remembering is that Melee weapons add STR DM to damage and that an attack of Effect 6+ will always inflict a point of damage regardless of armour (at least at the same scale. Small arms usually can't affect starships). And Cover. Absolutely get your space butt behind it.
Do not forget that Effect adds directly to damage, and is not capped. And that there are NUMEROUS ways to get to hit bonuses, which also feeds into that.
So, yeah, on the face of it the weapon damages seem low. But once you have a skilled attacker taking time to aim at close ranges (or scoped at longer ones), maybe with tech assistance, you can get the job done.
Naturally, firing an autopistol at battledress is likely to be futile. That's intended and logical. But Battledress is more akin to a light armoured vehicle - you don't get very far with small arms against those either.
Quick example, using normal circumstances:
Crewmember (gun drawn) is investigating a disturbance in the cargo hold. They turn a corner and come face to face with a hijacker. Neither gets surprise, but the Crew gets Initiative.
Crew is Gun Combat 2, Dex mod +1. They take a Minor Action to Aim (+1) and use their Significant Action to shoot. Range is Short (+1), the Crewmember's Autopistol has a laser sight (+1). Total modifiers to hit are +6.
Let's assume an average roll to hit of 7... that gives an effect of +5, so the damage rolled is 3D6-3+5. Let's say that's also an average roll of 10, so 12 damage. Dangerous to the unarmoured, something that an armour 10 target can shrug off.
But if the rolls are a little bit better than average, things change rapidly. If the to hit roll is 10, the effect is +8; if the damage roll is 13 (-3, +8), that's 18 points - likely taking an unarmoured target out, and wounding that armour 10 one.
If the crewmember were instead armed with a shotgun using solid shot (4D) average damage is 14, not 7.5 and that armour 10 target is in trouble even on average rolls.
The end result is that typically a Traveller firefight between armoured combatants will be a series of misses, glancing hits and minor penetrations, until someone manages a lucky shot (which does include one side being overmatched in skill and equipment. In that situation the better side is much more likely to get the lucky shot first).
Also worth remembering is that Melee weapons add STR DM to damage and that an attack of Effect 6+ will always inflict a point of damage regardless of armour (at least at the same scale. Small arms usually can't affect starships). And Cover. Absolutely get your space butt behind it.
agentwigggles
Cosmic Mongoose
Stealth and facing rules arent the same thing.
Facing rules is strictly a combat mechanic, which matter more for mini war games, then it does for ttrpg. Facing for war games determine what they can aim at, which vector they're being aimed at from. And for person to person combat, this edition, doesnt care about it.
This can become a hydra problem. They go into combat with an open jacket. Is it a free action to close it. Is it a simple action. Is it a complex action. Are you going to go through the start of every combat to ask them how they're dressed and how its sitting on them before each combat?
How are you going to track this for NPCs? Are you going to do little dottles to mark where the armor is open on them, or how it cover them. Are you gonna do a dottle of every combatant, with a front, back, side, side of how much each armor is covering.
If the player state where they're aiming and if ther an open slot, how do you determine if it the 2/3 of the chest is cover by the jacket verses the 1/3 that isnt. Or if the jacket is open, are you treating it as if the jack front flaps just go into a pocket dimension when open and the front of the chest is exposed?
What is this really solving?
For this system, even though it doesnt have called shot for melee combat, you can declare to do something harder, like aim for the neck or aim for the heart or other organs.
For my table, I would probably declare that their END is reduce to zero and that your damage roll is applied a second stat.
Mechanically, this edition, doesnt have a bleed out during combat mechanic. You can die after combat, when natural healing starts to happen.
You can also describe something like this happening if the attacker rolled and MoS +6 which is kinda, sorta a critical hit.
Respecting the narrative circumstances is fine.
I'd do the same if someone aimed for the head in particular with a gun for similar results or more, depending on narrative circumstances.
Frequent combat means having frequent new characters. Which is fine if everyone knows that going in.
I wouldnt really worry about lasers.
While lasers were shit canned in this edition, they arent worthless. They're more niche. They're zero gee, have basically infinite ammo, invisible to see. They have more narrative options than guns.
For my table, I give all laser guns free laser dot.
And investing in gun combat energy, lets you use the stun weapons, which are amazing.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
I really think I'd rather have a reflex sight. Doesn't give away that my target is being targeted, and I don't end up wondering which dot is mine and which is my buddy's.
For lasers I'd also consider halving the range penalties (-1 at long and -2 at extreme). The target is getting smaller, but at least you don't have to compensate for the ballistic arc of the bullet at longer ranges.
Aiming is your friend. If you can take the time to line up your target for 12 seconds you get the full +6 on the attack roll. When we were conducting Nobble hunts in the Tarsus campaign this proved critical to actually being able to drop them with a single shot. With the field guide you can also build guns with longer barrels, custom accurate and high quality to make your guns even more effective at longer ranges. A decent shot (with DM+3), full aiming, a good sight and the right barrel for the range can be getting +10 to hit. With a Nobble there was another +2 for them being large and generally they were loading enhanced wounding ammunition. Even at 500 Metres range they were guaranteed to hit and were frequently doing 20-30 points damage.
Currently the favourite weapon is the Navy version of the GS40 from the Field Catalogue (p77). With 50m range, AP4 and 3d6 damage it is already pretty effective against most civilian armour (including vacc suits). 50m is a long way but that means short range is all the way out to 12.5m (most of our pistol combats seem to be at less than that range). With the stock and scope even pot shots out to 200m are not implausible.
If you really want to rock and roll the GC-24 on p76 is a room broom. Auto 4 and a 24 round magazine means you empty the gun in 2 rounds but you make 4 attacks in each round. These don't have to be on different targets.
AP rounds are available for gauss weapons and the AP value of the bullet stacks with that of the weapon. Even the baseline Gauss Pistol from the CRB becomes 3d6 AP6 when loaded with AP rounds. With the base 40 round mag you can rock that Auto 2 for 6 combat rounds before you need to start worrying about reloads. 2 lots of 3d6 at AP6 per round will start to worry even high end armour wearers.
Finely Made weapons help (CSC p132). Deadly makes all dice rolled 1-2 into a 3 and Accurate gives +1 to hit. Even a single enhancement might up the price by 6 times, but as mustering out often grants a Cr3000 gun you could buy a Deadly Gauss Pistol rather than go for the default laser pistol. If you roll lucky on the price you might even be able to get a double benefit gun or buy some accessories. Obtaining these weapons should be a challenge in game, but it is less of a stretch as a mustering out benefit to get an extra fancy gun.
EDIT:
I think the burst adding the auto value to the damage should be per dice damage. Consider the gauss pistol, adding 2 points damage to a 3d6 roll seems a bit pants, adding 6 points is far more worth while for twice the ammunition expenditure.
Aiming is your friend. If you can take the time to line up your target for 12 seconds you get the full +6 on the attack roll. When we were conducting Nobble hunts in the Tarsus campaign this proved critical to actually being able to drop them with a single shot. With the field guide you can also build guns with longer barrels, custom accurate and high quality to make your guns even more effective at longer ranges. A decent shot (with DM+3), full aiming, a good sight and the right barrel for the range can be getting +10 to hit. With a Nobble there was another +2 for them being large and generally they were loading enhanced wounding ammunition. Even at 500 Metres range they were guaranteed to hit and were frequently doing 20-30 points damage.
Currently the favourite weapon is the Navy version of the GS40 from the Field Catalogue (p77). With 50m range, AP4 and 3d6 damage it is already pretty effective against most civilian armour (including vacc suits). 50m is a long way but that means short range is all the way out to 12.5m (most of our pistol combats seem to be at less than that range). With the stock and scope even pot shots out to 200m are not implausible.
If you really want to rock and roll the GC-24 on p76 is a room broom. Auto 4 and a 24 round magazine means you empty the gun in 2 rounds but you make 4 attacks in each round. These don't have to be on different targets.
AP rounds are available for gauss weapons and the AP value of the bullet stacks with that of the weapon. Even the baseline Gauss Pistol from the CRB becomes 3d6 AP6 when loaded with AP rounds. With the base 40 round mag you can rock that Auto 2 for 6 combat rounds before you need to start worrying about reloads. 2 lots of 3d6 at AP6 per round will start to worry even high end armour wearers.
Finely Made weapons help (CSC p132). Deadly makes all dice rolled 1-2 into a 3 and Accurate gives +1 to hit. Even a single enhancement might up the price by 6 times, but as mustering out often grants a Cr3000 gun you could buy a Deadly Gauss Pistol rather than go for the default laser pistol. If you roll lucky on the price you might even be able to get a double benefit gun or buy some accessories. Obtaining these weapons should be a challenge in game, but it is less of a stretch as a mustering out benefit to get an extra fancy gun.
EDIT:
I think the burst adding the auto value to the damage should be per dice damage. Consider the gauss pistol, adding 2 points damage to a 3d6 roll seems a bit pants, adding 6 points is far more worth while for twice the ammunition expenditure.
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Lasers are their own rangefinders.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Aslan must love them.
agentwigggles
Cosmic Mongoose
Just clarity, my reasoning for the free laser dot, was they're a laser weapon and seems fair to let them emit a less energetic laser for targeting.
mavikfelna
Emperor Mongoose
Also, it doesn't need to be a visible dot if you are using an electronic sight or HUD.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
If the operating mechanism permits that and I'm not sure it can please stop making me think about laser physics it'll make me want to watch Real Genius again arrrrgh.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Painting targets has been an option, almost from the beginning.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Aslan must love them.
Putting aside the fact that Aslan are not actually feline related . . .
I'd love to read the background scenario based on the above, of the one thing leading to another, that led to the clan feud into which the PCs have become embroiled and/or otherwise retained for their services . . .
CSC covers the range of laser dots, visible and otherwise, as well as the gear to interface with those, other than Mk 1 Eyeballs.
I'm fine with an integral VISIBLE laser dot option for any laser. If you want one for wavelengths the character can't see, they'll need more electronics.
(Cute idea... aliens that see further into the UV or IR could get away with simple laser dots that humans won't see. If there's enough of them around, it could be a viable product)
I'm fine with an integral VISIBLE laser dot option for any laser. If you want one for wavelengths the character can't see, they'll need more electronics.
(Cute idea... aliens that see further into the UV or IR could get away with simple laser dots that humans won't see. If there's enough of them around, it could be a viable product)
Because that's how it worked in Classic Traveller, essentially. Only Reflect and Combat Armor did squat vs laser weapons. (CT used a 'to damage' roll, didn't have separate armor values. So no armor was +3 and any armor that wasn't reflect or Combat Armor was +2 for a laser. Vs like -2 to -4 for firearms.
Again, the question is what are you trying to achieve? Your average character has 21hp and they are going to need a hospital stay at 14hp.
Yes, IRL, you can be killed by one stab of a knife if it's in the right place. If that's the sort of game you want to play, that's absolutely something that you can address by increasing weapon damage.
But if you want John Wick-ery, you need armor that will blunt, but not stop, 2d6 or 3d6-3 (+to hit effect) damage without killing characters outright. And that's right around 8ish.
Keep in mind that cloth armor is full legs, long sleeves, and something bulky-ish. Like a full suit (coat, waistcoat, shirt, pants, etc) or heavy biker leathers including jacket. So, yeah, it looks like normal clothes. But not the light pants and a polo type outfight that most people actually wear day to day. The cloth trench coat is absolutely obvious armor that everyone can recognized. Players can absolutely come equipped looking like riot police and that's pretty effective. But they'll get treated like they are dressed as riot police by everyone, which is not generally going to be a favorable reaction in most cases.
As I said back at the beginning, the rules are designed to allow a very wide range of game play styles. Only you can prevent your game of Stainless Steel Rat from becoming Hammer's Slammers if that's not what you want. The rules allow for riot police, for space marines, for John Wick suits, and for brawling in your undies.
You have to decide what's reasonable in your game. Because you are right, no one is going to stab or punch out a riot cop without some absurd advantage or amazing dice. Ask your players: Do you want to be fighting guys equipped with military weapons? Then gear up for that double digit armor and don't get caught in an autofire burst. Don't want this to be a campaign of Hammer's Slammers, then let's be reasonable about how we gear up.
