I'll admit I actually haven't played Vree yet, but as I'm painting up a fleet now, I've been studying them. Wow. Do they look tough. Are they as tough as they appear? Are they "over-tough" (aka cheesy, broken, beardy)? Why do they all have Anti-fighter infinity AND turrets? How do you beat them? What's their Achilles heel?
Vree
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good guns - very good guns - but low AD so interceptors are very useful against them.A few of their drawbacks...
Low PL hulls have low hull and damage scores
No fleet carrier
Tend to rely on high powered, interceptable weapons. High hulled ships with interceptors do quite well.
Although agile, they're not that fast.
The few long ranged weapons they get have comparitively few AD, so even fighters acting as interceptors can significantly reduce damage taken at long range.
2 crits can completely remove all of their guns (4/6 and 6/4, I think (off the top of my head))
Even weapons 1-3 and reactor crits can ruin their day by reducing their AD quickly.
They're a good fleet, but far from broken. You have to try to maintain your distance as much as possible, concentrate beams against the high hulled ships and generally not rely on getting into secondary weapon range against them,where their turrets and agility count severely against you. Fighters with a range of over 2" are also excellent against them, T-Bolts, Firebolts, Thoron Torpedo Fighters, Vorlon Fighters and Rutarians probably being the best of the bunch.
Low PL hulls have low hull and damage scores
No fleet carrier
Tend to rely on high powered, interceptable weapons. High hulled ships with interceptors do quite well.
Although agile, they're not that fast.
The few long ranged weapons they get have comparitively few AD, so even fighters acting as interceptors can significantly reduce damage taken at long range.
2 crits can completely remove all of their guns (4/6 and 6/4, I think (off the top of my head))
Even weapons 1-3 and reactor crits can ruin their day by reducing their AD quickly.
They're a good fleet, but far from broken. You have to try to maintain your distance as much as possible, concentrate beams against the high hulled ships and generally not rely on getting into secondary weapon range against them,where their turrets and agility count severely against you. Fighters with a range of over 2" are also excellent against them, T-Bolts, Firebolts, Thoron Torpedo Fighters, Vorlon Fighters and Rutarians probably being the best of the bunch.
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
I have seen Vree fighters take out an EA 3rd age Scout from 4" away
That said, Vree Tzymm fighters are extremely nasty from a gunnery standpoint, and Zorths will give even Nials a bloody nose.
I've had one flight of Tzymms destroy a previously untouched Minbari Tigara (OK, so a 6-6 crit helped!) whilst another three flights nailed another Tigara. That was rather special...
I've had one flight of Tzymms destroy a previously untouched Minbari Tigara (OK, so a 6-6 crit helped!) whilst another three flights nailed another Tigara. That was rather special...
The Vree were born again hard in 2nd ed. Even with only hull 4 on the small ships, they are still nasty. The Tzymm is overgunned. The "bonus" of hull 4 nowdays is that it is just as tough against beams as hull 6. They have great ships at every PL. The Xonn is brutally nasty, as is the Xeel, and the range 25 bombardment ship.
Dave
Dave
-------Chernobyl said:
I play Vree/League. There are far too many hull four ships to make
the Vree a competative (for tourneys) fleet. The rather fragile nature
of the entire fleet puts them at a disadvantage across the board.
Interceptors, E-mines and bricks (large value ships) are the undoing
of the Vree.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Disagree strongly.
The Tzymm is another of my 10 worst balance offenders.
The Xonn is a Tikrit with more DD dice, SAP instead of AP, T arc instead of F, Hull 6, Vree Super Manouverable, and a bonus to its CAF roll (+1 CQ). And, oh, yeah, it's 15% bigger, too. I think this thing is stupid ridiculous as well.
The Xixx leverages CBD way too well for my tastes. I'd rather face the bombardment Xirr than this; at least another 1/3 of my damage actually hits.
Even the new Xaar is vile. I hadn't looked hard at this little beast before, but ... woof.
The fleet is absolutely disgusting. Mix with League for some Anti-Hull 6 beams (a Solarhawk or two should do nicely), and it's just ... wow.
The Tzymm is another of my 10 worst balance offenders.
The Xonn is a Tikrit with more DD dice, SAP instead of AP, T arc instead of F, Hull 6, Vree Super Manouverable, and a bonus to its CAF roll (+1 CQ). And, oh, yeah, it's 15% bigger, too. I think this thing is stupid ridiculous as well.
The Xixx leverages CBD way too well for my tastes. I'd rather face the bombardment Xirr than this; at least another 1/3 of my damage actually hits.
Even the new Xaar is vile. I hadn't looked hard at this little beast before, but ... woof.
The fleet is absolutely disgusting. Mix with League for some Anti-Hull 6 beams (a Solarhawk or two should do nicely), and it's just ... wow.
eldiablito
Mongoose
Sorry,
Even though the fighters are good, getting those fighters is tough to do when your options are buying them are:
-patrol choices
-a skirmish ship that will crumble quickly, and doesn't get the carrier trait
-or a war level ship that again, doesn't have carrier.
The main problem with the fleet is the hull 4. They have no interceptors, 1 ship with dodge and 2 with stealth. This leaves the rest of the fleet very fragile indeed. I'm very happy with the SM ability but average speeds and gun ranges means that enemy ships can bust open holes with that dreaded hull 4. The enemy can out-range the Vree's main guns. Also with only 1 interceptor, much of the existing vree firepower can be mitigated.
That said, I am a proud owner of a Vree fleet. I would make that my main fleet except that the local Earth (crusade era mostly), Centauri and Narn players can just dust ships without taking significant damage and before I get into range. I guess my comment is that they are enjoyable and have amazing options for a general League fleet. Unfortunately with all their other limitations, my local opponents can quickly take advantage of the fragile discs and overcome my obvious threats.
Even though the fighters are good, getting those fighters is tough to do when your options are buying them are:
-patrol choices
-a skirmish ship that will crumble quickly, and doesn't get the carrier trait
-or a war level ship that again, doesn't have carrier.
The main problem with the fleet is the hull 4. They have no interceptors, 1 ship with dodge and 2 with stealth. This leaves the rest of the fleet very fragile indeed. I'm very happy with the SM ability but average speeds and gun ranges means that enemy ships can bust open holes with that dreaded hull 4. The enemy can out-range the Vree's main guns. Also with only 1 interceptor, much of the existing vree firepower can be mitigated.
That said, I am a proud owner of a Vree fleet. I would make that my main fleet except that the local Earth (crusade era mostly), Centauri and Narn players can just dust ships without taking significant damage and before I get into range. I guess my comment is that they are enjoyable and have amazing options for a general League fleet. Unfortunately with all their other limitations, my local opponents can quickly take advantage of the fragile discs and overcome my obvious threats.
Gee, I dunno....
Compare two Vree ships
Both speed 10, hull 4, 1 troop, one has slightly less damage but more turns, one has 1 more anti fighter and a jump engine and in return loses twin linked on 4 of its AD. sounds pretty equivalent. should be, they're both skirmish level. Oh wait, the less maneuverable one comes with 1 and 1/3 patrol points worth of fighters, which total up to 28AD of at a minimum of twin-linked firepower.
by including so many fighters, its saying the ship is LESS than the value of a patrol level ship, which makes the comparison of ship stats above, laughable. If I was a vree player and took something other than Xeels I'd have to have my head examined.
There is a really simple fix to the situation:
have the Xeel come with 4 Zorth's instead of 4 Tzymm's, and have an additional option in the vree fleet list to upgrade the Zorth's to Tzymms in a Xeel carrier for one patrol point. Zorths may still be 3 to a wing, but there nowhere near as dangerous as a Tzymm.
The other option is to downgrade the number of Tzymms to 2 instead of 4, or beef up the ship very slightly and make it a raid choice instead.
The only other fighter that is equivalent to the tyzmm is the Sky Serpent, and the Drazi need a battle level carrier to get a decent amount of them. Granted its a tough ship, so it seems the vree are going to a ship that is little more than a transport for fighters, but if that is the case its got too many or the ship is too good as compared to other fighter transports (hermes)
and just becasue its not a "carrier"? please. you can start with one from every ship on the field, and then you just do a "scramble" to launch in turn 1 when you're at your longest range. then, at your leisure, launch the remaining one in a later turn.
Chernobyl
PS, above, I was comparing the Xorr to the Xeel.
Compare two Vree ships
Both speed 10, hull 4, 1 troop, one has slightly less damage but more turns, one has 1 more anti fighter and a jump engine and in return loses twin linked on 4 of its AD. sounds pretty equivalent. should be, they're both skirmish level. Oh wait, the less maneuverable one comes with 1 and 1/3 patrol points worth of fighters, which total up to 28AD of at a minimum of twin-linked firepower.
by including so many fighters, its saying the ship is LESS than the value of a patrol level ship, which makes the comparison of ship stats above, laughable. If I was a vree player and took something other than Xeels I'd have to have my head examined.
There is a really simple fix to the situation:
have the Xeel come with 4 Zorth's instead of 4 Tzymm's, and have an additional option in the vree fleet list to upgrade the Zorth's to Tzymms in a Xeel carrier for one patrol point. Zorths may still be 3 to a wing, but there nowhere near as dangerous as a Tzymm.
The other option is to downgrade the number of Tzymms to 2 instead of 4, or beef up the ship very slightly and make it a raid choice instead.
The only other fighter that is equivalent to the tyzmm is the Sky Serpent, and the Drazi need a battle level carrier to get a decent amount of them. Granted its a tough ship, so it seems the vree are going to a ship that is little more than a transport for fighters, but if that is the case its got too many or the ship is too good as compared to other fighter transports (hermes)
and just becasue its not a "carrier"? please. you can start with one from every ship on the field, and then you just do a "scramble" to launch in turn 1 when you're at your longest range. then, at your leisure, launch the remaining one in a later turn.
Chernobyl
PS, above, I was comparing the Xorr to the Xeel.
OK...i play Vree and nothing else...here ya go:
Egg shells with really big hammers!!
Look at all the 4 hulls....
Look at the 25" range (down from 30" in 1st ed)...
Add a little more damage to all the ships...set the ranges to the 1st ed. and throw in a few more hull 5's (just change some of the hull 4's) and I'd be even more happy!
There ya go...
Egg shells with really big hammers!!
Look at all the 4 hulls....
Look at the 25" range (down from 30" in 1st ed)...
Add a little more damage to all the ships...set the ranges to the 1st ed. and throw in a few more hull 5's (just change some of the hull 4's) and I'd be even more happy!
There ya go...
OK, time to look at the Vree.
Skirmish level hulls are Hull 4, Check. Beams still hit them on 4's, same as every other hull. Average Damage and Crew is 18/20, unless you take a Xeel which is 20/24. The Vaarl and Vaarka are considerably smaller, but have stealth 5.
Guns - All of them are turreted
Vaarl - 3AD SAP DD at range 15
Vaarka - 4 AD DD/TL at range 10
Not spectacular, but they are scouts.
Xeel - 6AD SAP DD at range 15 + 4 Tzymms giving you another 28AD
Xirr - 3AD SAP TD Range 25
Xixx - 4 AD SAP, TD, Precise, SL (2 launchers of 2 AD) Range 25
Xorr - 4 AD DD SAP TL at range 15 and 2 AD DD SAP at range 15
What is so weak about these?
The Xaar at Patrol is nasty. 4AD SAP DD with Hull 5 and Dodge 5+, or take the Ximm escort with 3 AD SAP DD at range 15 and it's a Xorr variant
I love the small Vree ships, and they are very playable in the tournament enviornment.
Dave
Skirmish level hulls are Hull 4, Check. Beams still hit them on 4's, same as every other hull. Average Damage and Crew is 18/20, unless you take a Xeel which is 20/24. The Vaarl and Vaarka are considerably smaller, but have stealth 5.
Guns - All of them are turreted
Vaarl - 3AD SAP DD at range 15
Vaarka - 4 AD DD/TL at range 10
Not spectacular, but they are scouts.
Xeel - 6AD SAP DD at range 15 + 4 Tzymms giving you another 28AD
Xirr - 3AD SAP TD Range 25
Xixx - 4 AD SAP, TD, Precise, SL (2 launchers of 2 AD) Range 25
Xorr - 4 AD DD SAP TL at range 15 and 2 AD DD SAP at range 15
What is so weak about these?
The Xaar at Patrol is nasty. 4AD SAP DD with Hull 5 and Dodge 5+, or take the Ximm escort with 3 AD SAP DD at range 15 and it's a Xorr variant
I love the small Vree ships, and they are very playable in the tournament enviornment.
Dave
Locutus9956
Mongoose
The Vree in my experience are actually a very good fleet. Theyre not actually very fast and are by and large very fragile too, BUT the guns, oh the guns! :shock:
There are very few races out there that can match the sheer firepower the Vree have at short - mid range. The centauri and dilgar can but only in the forward arc.
Vree are very good, and definitely competitive in my opinion, not broken in my eyes (though as mentioned by a few the Tzymm fighter esepcially when fielded by taking Xeel carriers does have a slight whiff of cheese to it (in fact a 'spam of Xeels' short of facing an emined armed opponent or a Centauri or Minbari fleet with multiple carriers, is by reconning going to be pretty darned sick....)
So to sum up I'd say the 2nd Ed Vree are very very good but not broken, in my eyes theres only been one fleet thats ACTUALLY flat out broken ever in ACTA and thats the Gaim.
Currently out of the others the only ones that I still think come CLOSE to that line are the Dilgar and Psi Corps. Drakh and Centauri Minbari and ISA are bit behind them but more only slightly better than average (Im putting 3rd Age EA as 'the Average' as in my oppinion there pretty much the middle of the raod fleet in terms of power). Vree are I'd say up about the Cantauri Minbari point. In fact:
Broken (too good. I would refuse to play them and forfeit any game against them in a tourney currently):
Gaim (hopefully that will change in a couple of weeks though....)
Overpowered (very good but not broken to the point where its the fleets fault if they kick my ass
):
Dilgar, Psi Corps
Good (Better than average but not really enough to make me feel like I'm really at a disadvantage overall):
ISA, Minbari, Centauri, Vree, Early Years EA, Drakh, Shadows
Average (pretty standard fleets, if you win with these I'd say its all down to playing well personally since they wont do any of the work for you (but theyre not actually understrenght I feel):
3rd Age EA, Pak'Ma'Ra, Drazi, Brakkiri, Vorlons, Narns, Crusade EA**, Mixed League*
Underpowered (fleets that I think are actually at a disadavantage in most average games, win with them and youve done well in my opinion (or been very lucky!):
Abbai, Raiders**
Useless (fleets that have no chace of winning short of being incredibly lucky and are just no fun to play):
At the moment I would actually say no fleets fall under this category.
I'd be very interested to see others opinions of where the fleets fall under these 6 categories: (Broken - Overpowered - Good - Average - Underpowered - Useless)
*Unless you use Gaim as part of it. Any use of the Gaim puts this fleet straight into the 'broken' category in my opinion
**Crusade EA is in my eyes only JUST into this catergory as I think its definitely at the weak end of the 'average crowd' It USED to be very nasty for the sheer abundance of hull 6 and interceptors but with the pimping out of the beam rules in 2nd ed this doesnt really count for anywhere near what it used to. Similarly the Raiders are a weak fleet in general but the Battle Wagon is actually rather nasty, especially if the beam dice go your way.
There are very few races out there that can match the sheer firepower the Vree have at short - mid range. The centauri and dilgar can but only in the forward arc.
Vree are very good, and definitely competitive in my opinion, not broken in my eyes (though as mentioned by a few the Tzymm fighter esepcially when fielded by taking Xeel carriers does have a slight whiff of cheese to it (in fact a 'spam of Xeels' short of facing an emined armed opponent or a Centauri or Minbari fleet with multiple carriers, is by reconning going to be pretty darned sick....)
So to sum up I'd say the 2nd Ed Vree are very very good but not broken, in my eyes theres only been one fleet thats ACTUALLY flat out broken ever in ACTA and thats the Gaim.
Currently out of the others the only ones that I still think come CLOSE to that line are the Dilgar and Psi Corps. Drakh and Centauri Minbari and ISA are bit behind them but more only slightly better than average (Im putting 3rd Age EA as 'the Average' as in my oppinion there pretty much the middle of the raod fleet in terms of power). Vree are I'd say up about the Cantauri Minbari point. In fact:
Broken (too good. I would refuse to play them and forfeit any game against them in a tourney currently):
Gaim (hopefully that will change in a couple of weeks though....)
Overpowered (very good but not broken to the point where its the fleets fault if they kick my ass
):Dilgar, Psi Corps
Good (Better than average but not really enough to make me feel like I'm really at a disadvantage overall):
ISA, Minbari, Centauri, Vree, Early Years EA, Drakh, Shadows
Average (pretty standard fleets, if you win with these I'd say its all down to playing well personally since they wont do any of the work for you (but theyre not actually understrenght I feel):
3rd Age EA, Pak'Ma'Ra, Drazi, Brakkiri, Vorlons, Narns, Crusade EA**, Mixed League*
Underpowered (fleets that I think are actually at a disadavantage in most average games, win with them and youve done well in my opinion (or been very lucky!):
Abbai, Raiders**
Useless (fleets that have no chace of winning short of being incredibly lucky and are just no fun to play):
At the moment I would actually say no fleets fall under this category.
I'd be very interested to see others opinions of where the fleets fall under these 6 categories: (Broken - Overpowered - Good - Average - Underpowered - Useless)
*Unless you use Gaim as part of it. Any use of the Gaim puts this fleet straight into the 'broken' category in my opinion
**Crusade EA is in my eyes only JUST into this catergory as I think its definitely at the weak end of the 'average crowd' It USED to be very nasty for the sheer abundance of hull 6 and interceptors but with the pimping out of the beam rules in 2nd ed this doesnt really count for anywhere near what it used to
. Similarly the Raiders are a weak fleet in general but the Battle Wagon is actually rather nasty, especially if the beam dice go your way.Dilgar - really ?- played them a few times and not had a problem - same with Psi Corps.
Have much more grief playing Minbari - I don't think the latter are broken - just v difficult to beat.
I also actually think Mixed League is one of the better fleets given the sheer variety of good ships on offer.
Vorlons - just depends on the beam rolls..............
Have much more grief playing Minbari - I don't think the latter are broken - just v difficult to beat.
I also actually think Mixed League is one of the better fleets given the sheer variety of good ships on offer.
Vorlons - just depends on the beam rolls..............
Our local vree player loves the small/medium ships, especially the scouts. I have yet to beat him with my EA third age 
The new beam rules really help those hull 4 ships. The next game we have I am going to introduce his Vree to my Centauri, we'll see how the cattle molesters like that :twisted:
(I confess, I also have a 5pt raid vree fleet. The zonn is a beast and a bit, there is something satisfying about having to use both hands to shake all those dice when you fire the antimatter shredders)
The new beam rules really help those hull 4 ships. The next game we have I am going to introduce his Vree to my Centauri, we'll see how the cattle molesters like that :twisted:(I confess, I also have a 5pt raid vree fleet. The zonn is a beast and a bit, there is something satisfying about having to use both hands to shake all those dice when you fire the antimatter shredders)
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Da Boss said:
Thats why theyre in the 'overpowered' category for me rather than broken. Theyre not broken, they are perfectly beatable but I DO think theyre rather easier to play than certain others, the trouble with Dilgar is the sheer firepower they have which, used well gives them a big edge, especially in time limited games at tournaments since they have the guns to get in and alpha strike anything big for loads of victory points.
Psi corps problems are basically in the form of the Mothership and Hunter being very nasty ships if used properly, and their Black Omegas being pure distilled sickness. Again I dont think theyre actually broken and am happy to play them/against them any day, but they ARE definitely on the nasty side of fair play
Minbari are actually I think not that bad in terms of balance, I dont actually LIKE them that much as Im still not convinced by stealth but I dont actually find them any worse than most other races.
Mixed league are certainly not bad but I dont see them as being particularly nasty, and if you take a reasonable mix rather than just abusing the list by taking basically a single race with a couple of ships from another (for example the suggested Vree fleet fleet with a couple of drazi for support suggested earlier by someone which I personally think is sort of defeating the POINT of mixed league...
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