Victory at Sea fans: Yamato movie

Eisho

Mongoose
Apologies to the mods. I know this isn't strictly speaking about VaS but I figured there would be more interested people likely to see it on this forum rather than on the Off Topic forum.

Yamato is a new video release in Japan. I'm not sure if it's available outside Japan at the moment but for WWII naval buffs, it's a definite must-see. The version here has no subtitles and no dubbing features on the DVD, so if you order direct from Japan be aware of that.

The movie follows the lives of low-ranking sailors that operate the same anti-aircraft gun together as a team on board the Yamato (one of two super battleships built by the Japanese in WWII). You get a bit of a glimpse of life on board the ship and key events in the Pacific are quickly covered (including the death of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto). The first major action sequences are in Leyte Gulf when the Yamato was strafed, bombed and torpedoed by American planes (and where the Musashi was sunk, the sister ship). The main thrust of the movie however, like a lot of Japanese war movies, is the crew coming to terms with what they know will be a suicidal final mission against American ships engaged in the occupation of Okinawa, their final farewells and then the last minutes of the crew as, one-by-one, they are killed by air attacks. The final sequences aren't as harrowing as Saving Private Ryan, but they leave nothing to the imagination either.

By Japanese standards this is a major motion picture and they spent a great deal of money reconstructing part of the Yamato on a 1:1 scale. I've tracked down this web page which has been set up by a Japanese guy with descriptions in English (which he has done a good job with, but a native speaker will find some of it a bid odd).

http://www.oshipee.com/omami/e-photo-yamatomovie-set.htm

The scale gives you an idea of how immense the ship was, with the crew training and washing the decks.

This is the official web page for the movie (99% Japanese I'm afraid, but you'll be able to see some trailers).

http://www.yamato-movie.jp/

It's interesting to see things from a Japanese perspective. In Private Ryan, for example (but same can be said for other war movies from Hollywood), the close ups are of Allied soldiers being wounded and killed and the enemy are shown somewhere in the distance. In Yamato this is reversed. It's the Japanese sailors watching their friends getting bits of their bodies blown off, screaming for one another and it's the American pilots that are depersonalised. You don't see the suffering or terror of downed US pilots crashing into the sea.

Anyway, from a visual perspective if nothing else, WWII fans will love this movie.

Cheers,

Eisho
 
The cannons on that thing are absolutely massive. There are probably bigger ones out there, but they are nice!
 
Yeah those main guns are 18.1 inch calibre and throw a 1.3 ton shell 25 miles. Hence they are the biggest main battery actually fitted to a battleship and Yamato has 9 of them. She though being probably the most pointless battleship in history has the most amazing stats.

oggie
 
She was a very interesting ship. And those guns being the largest produced for a warship ever. The thing that most people don't realize is that a sample of the Yamato's class armor was tested by the US Navy in the post war. They fired one of the Iowa's class 16 inch 50 caliber guns at one of the front plates for the turret of the unfinished 3rd Yamato Battleship. The Iowa's were using a newer heavier Armor piercing round. The round penetrated the plate. It would have been a very nasty fight between the Iowa's and the Yamato.

The 3rd Yamato was reuilt as a carrier named the Shinano. It was sunk by the Archerfish on it's (well call it, it's maiden) voyage.
 
Yeah the type of steel used in the Yamoto's armour was not carbon treated to the same standard as contempoary US or British armour and about 10% less effective. It would yes be a interesting fight but it was never realistically going to happen. With Japanese naval codes broken
early on in the war the Americans had advance warning of any Japanese naval forays. Carrier based airplanes far outrange even the Yamato's 18 inch guns so it is unlikely the 2 ships would even get in range before the Yamato would be hitting the ocean floor (which was what in fact did happen).

If they did get into range then a lot would depend on luck and where the hits land. It would be an interesting match up for Victory at sea, Iowa
vs Yamato

The Shinano was sunk by Japanese stupidity. It was on its way to be fitted out and for some reason it was let out of the harbour into the sea where a hoard of American subs were just itching for an excuse to launch torpedoes. Fitting out involves fitting the systems that make a fighting ship able to fight. One of the more important systems is WATERTIGHT COMPARTMENTS...I will repeat that WATERTIGHT COMPARTMENTS! So after being hit by only 2 torpedoes flooding could not be contained and she was lost. Compare this to her sister ships Yamato and Musashi who being fully fitted out took at least 10 torpedoes EACH before sinking!!

oggie
 
I know what your saying Oggie X. And I totally agree with what you said! I know it would have been an interesting match.
 
Luck is paramount though. You can blast away at each other in battleships for hours, unless you hit something critical the chances are you will limp away at the end badly damaged but afloat. So theoretically then the person that has the more accurate gunnery will have the advantage (more chance of a hit, more chance that critical area nailed). But once again removal of gunnery control by a lucky hit will swing the likely outcome of a fight. For example the Norfolks (I think) 8inch hit on the Bismarck in the opening stages of that ships final battle which nailed the Primary main battery fire control as well protected as it was.

oggie
 
oggie x said:
... It would yes be a interesting fight but it was never realistically going to happen. With Japanese naval codes broken
early on in the war the Americans had advance warning of any Japanese naval forays...

oggie

Hi oggie. You need to take a peek at maybe two books about a battle called "The Battle off Samar". One is by Samuel Eliot Morison and is vol. 12 called "Leyte" (part of History of United States Naval Operations in World War II). The other is a much newer book called "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" by James Hornfischer. Although the U.S. Navy had carrier dominance by the time of the Leyte operation the Japanese very nearly proved the worth of still having battleships. As Halsey and 3rd fleet were suckered away from guarding San Bernardino Strait (the northern gateway to Leyte Gulf and the defenseless transports), there was a provision to create Task Force 34 consisting of modern U.S. heavies (including Washington, Alabama, New Jersey and Iowa) to be left behind when the carriers lunged for the bait offered of virtually toothless Japanese aircraft carriers. Although the Musashi had been sunk the previous day, the Yamato was accompanied by the Nagato, Kongo and Haruna in what might have been a last fight between opposing heavies. The very night before had seen the refitted BBs pulled from the mud of Pearl Harbor slaughtering the Fuso and Yamashiro on the southern flank of Leyte in a classic crossing of the "T", but the Yamato and her consorts instead fought the U.S.N.'s pluckiest ever destroyers in a rear-guard action to save the CVEs that were caught with their pants down due to Halsey's decision not to deploy TF34 as a cork-in-the-bottle to San Bernardino Strait. I can attest that there can be no greater naval story told than that of Task Unit 77.4.3 "Taffy III". I plan to do a write-up for Signs & Portents once I get VAS. I simply can't say enough about the courage of those DD sailors that took on that lineup of battle-wagons. The job should have been assigned to TF34 commanded by Adm. Lee in the Washington (the killer of the Kirishima at Guadalcanal). I do blame Halsey for this but there were many extenuating circumstances that explain why he made the decision to take his BBs with his fast carriers 200 miles away to the northeast, but they are discussed in the books. It was a close thing that nearly happened, but fate had a different path.
 
At the time of Leyte the Japanese were still fairly strong carrier-wise (though outnumbered by the Americans). What the Japanese lacked were sufficient carrier pilots and planes. Had the Japanese been able to assemble a reasonable air force I think the tactics employed at Leyte would have been very different. It was the lack of skilled pilots and quality aircraft that caused the Japanese to revert to suicide attacks (first purposely used at Leyte).

That the Japanese came so close to succeeding was more down to luck than anything, along with the incredible bravery shown by the crews on the destroyers and, most notably in my opinion, the crew of the destroyer escort, the Samuel B. Roberts.

If no-one objects to my mentioning it, readers of this thread interested in Leyte might like to take a look at my book GURPS WWII: The Battle of Leyte Gulf published by Steve Jackson Games.

As for a possible match up between the Yamato and America's best battleships, I think victory would have gone to the Americans everytime. Japan had lost its most capable naval commanders by the last year of the Pacific war (the exception being Ozawa, the unfortunate commander of the aircraft carrier group at Leyte that served as bait to draw Halsey away from his holding position in the San Bernardino Strait).

Cheers,

Eisho
 
I have to agree that if the fight had happened victory would probably go to the Americans. Due to better fire control and more modern ships. But once again one for the tabletop.

oggie
 
oggie x said:
I have to agree that if the fight had happened victory would probably go to the Americans. Due to better fire control and more modern ships. But once again one for the tabletop.

oggie

Yes, if you "play" with history and make-believe the Japanese Center Force was missed by bad weather (and the U.S. subs Darter and Dace) you would end up with a commander in Kurita that hadn't been fished out of the water from having his heavy cruiser sunk from under him and therefore not as frazzled the next day. You could therefore add three heavy cruisers to the OB (2 sunk and 1 damaged by subs) and 2 DDs that escorted the damaged Takao, as well as the sister to the Yamato, the Musashi sunk by air attack. That gets you six additional ships and no damage from the previous air attack (hits were scored on Yamato, Nagato, Musashi sunk and heavy damage to CA Myoko). Bring in TF34 and a few planes from the 7th Fleet CVEs (you just about have to if they aren't getting molested as actually happened). Heck those planes did plenty of damage as it was :wink: . Variants of this are many, with the 7th Fleet BBs being able to be drawn up from the south, but with low ammo.
 
Eisho said:
If no-one objects to my mentioning it, readers of this thread interested in Leyte might like to take a look at my book GURPS WWII: The Battle of Leyte Gulf published by Steve Jackson Games.

Cheers,

Eisho

I'll take a look-see :D . Make sure you read "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors". You will not put it down. The "Sammy B" and Johnston (and yes the Heerman) are heroes, but the Johnston and her captain (Evans) and the SB Roberts are unbelievable in their heroism and efforts. Oh, the History channel sells a DVD of the same name- get it.
 
I've read some documents that dealt with the battle of Leyte Gulf. Halsey was flat out wrong (Much as I admire the man) to abandon his post guarding the staright. He should never have left his position there. I've also read a score of things dealing with that battle in particular. One of my favorite battles.
 
Aramanthus said:
I've read some documents that dealt with the battle of Leyte Gulf. Halsey was flat out wrong (Much as I admire the man) to abandon his post guarding the staright. He should never have left his position there. I've also read a score of things dealing with that battle in particular. One of my favorite battles.

What is brought to light in the book "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" is that Halsey was a product of Annapolis, and leaders are taught/drilled to not divide their forces, which was exactly what was called for in this case. While I've always held it against Halsey (that, and getting into two Typhoons when commanding a fleet), I now at least understand that he was a creature of his lessons and while not forgiving him see a possible reason for the gap in tactics in covering the exit to San Bernardino strait. Did I say this was a good book? :wink:
 
I've read about the influence of the Annapolis-mentality on Halsey but think it only goes so far to explain his decision.

The Japanese carriers provided a threat exacerbated by the fact that there were land-based landing strips nearby. This would have allowed planes to fly from carriers on attack missions, land and rearm then fly back to their carrier while conducting another attack. Plus land-based aircraft would have also been able to engage en masse. Any task force left in the vicinity without air cover could, in theory, have been easily weakened by air attacks and finally finished off if Kurita had reversed course (at the time Halsey made his decision, as far as he was aware, Kurita was in retreat). Under these circumstances, even a combined task force (with air cover) would still have been potentially at great risk. Both Nimitz and MacArthur wanted Halsey to remain in position, but Halsey, with the now-known threat of the Japanese carriers would have been taking a risk.

This left the option of attacking the Japanese carriers all out. Here the character of Halsey (nicknamed 'the Bull') comes into play. He was looking for a decisive encounter with the Japanese carrier group in particular, for personal glory and, in his view, because it would make an eventual invasion of Japan easier (he was of course unaware of the development of the atomic bomb). As far as he was concerned, and not unreasonably, it was the carriers that carried the greater threat to the actual invasion at Leyte.

Where the mistake arose IMHO is with Halsey, at such a crucial moment, not making his battle plan absolutely crystal clear (that Task Force 34 was not in fact in a guarding position). His wording was highly ambiguous (intentionally so?). On the other hand, if the Annapolis-mentality (not to divide one's forces) was so prevalent, shouldn't Nimitz and Kinkaid have immediately been wary in their assumption that TF 34 remained? There is also the fact that Halsey's flagship, the battleship New Jersey, sailed north. Again, such senior naval commanders should have been alerted to the fact that this meant that the battleships were sailing north.

The Battle of Leyte Gulf is tremendously absorbing and multi-faceted. As I've said before, I'm much more interested in the Pacific War than clashes between British and German navies so I hope Mongoose follow up with miniatures.

Cheers,

Eisho
 
Eisho said:
On the other hand, if the Annapolis-mentality (not to divide one's forces) was so prevalent, shouldn't Nimitz and Kinkaid have immediately been wary in their assumption that TF 34 remained? There is also the fact that Halsey's flagship, the battleship New Jersey, sailed north. Again, such senior naval commanders should have been alerted to the fact that this meant that the battleships were sailing north.

I agree, and I believe that Nimitz and Kinkade's training similar to Halsey's might have been covered too in the book. As you know, Nimitz gave Halsey deliberately ambiguous orders so as to give him latitude to pursue a decisive naval engagement (or Halsey asked for the option). Regardless, it gave Halsey the option and he lunged for the bait. If I had been in the same position, I might have only changed history in adding a few DDs as sentries to San Bernardino. It would have been extremely hard to not go after Ozawa's carriers and just sit there. If you want to change history with a small correction (i.e. butterfly effect), go back in time and drop a note to MacArthur with Nimitz's orders to Halsey, and you would see MacArthur tightening Halsey's leash to guard duty only perhaps.

Eisho said:
The Battle of Leyte Gulf is tremendously absorbing and multi-faceted. As I've said before, I'm much more interested in the Pacific War than clashes between British and German navies so I hope Mongoose follow up with miniatures.

Cheers,

Eisho

I feel as some historians do that the WW2 Pacific theater makes events in the Atlantic pale in comparison.
 
Getting back to the movie, I found it interesting but ultimately a bit of a disappointment, probably because of the hype about it on some of the wargaming and naval Yahoo groups. As a human interest story showing the Japanese side of events and the cultural aspects of life on board it was good, but the "spotter" in me wanted to see more of the ship. The final sinking of the Yamato was, IMHO, an opportunity missed (one minute heeling but there, then an arty (but admittedly rather good) underwater shot, then a pillar of smoke. It could have been so much better. The CGI aircraft were patchy - sometimes good, sometimes performing manoeuvres worthy of a TIE fighter!

Overall not the best war movie I've ever seen but not the worst by any stretch of the imagination. Oh, and as with "Das Boot" I became oblivios to the subtitles within minutes (even if some were written in "Japanese VCR instrction book" style :D )
 
I've always wanted to do Pacific theatre carrier battles but the system that I have been using has many, many complicated tables, calculations and what not. Hopefully the VaS system will make them far easier to use (as opposed to taking hours over 1 turn of aircraft moving). Thge reason I use these rules is that for historically accurate battleship fights they are great (what can I say the big guns do it for me, oh and the oppertunity to yell FIRE loudly). But I am looking forward to the presumably much faster play of VaS.

oggie
 
I've used GQ extensively for Pacific War and Indian Ocean campaigns. As a couple of examples, I ran a Midway campaign that was notable for the total inability of the US comamnders to coordinate their carriers (the players concerned STILL argue about it today), whilst I also played in an Eastern Solomons one day campaign that had over 40 players in it. One of the tensest, most enjoyable wargames I have ever played in (and not just saying that as I was the Japanese CV battlegroup air boss and we trashed the Enterprise and Lexington for almost no loss!)

Read Tully and Parshall's recently released "Shattered Sword" for an excellent coverage of Midway!
 
Oh, General Quarters I'm guessing. I use Seekrieg 4 (mainly because it was free and I thought oh I haven't done that type of wargame before). Enterprise and Lexington for no loss, happy clappy Jappie chappies.

I have had a good idea for a WW2 battleship engagement though. Prior to WW2 a mini arms race started between the French and the Germans, whose ships paper at least appear closely matched. By this I mean the Germans Scharnorst Battlecruiser and Bismarck Battleship classes and the comparable (respectively) French Dunkerque Battlecruiser and Richelieu Battleship classes. This sounds like a plan.

oggie
 
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