Very economical interstellar travel outside of known space

[MarcusIII]

While looking at the Small craft Jump capable ships I have made I had to ask this question; Without artificial restrictions like gov't regs and the like how could you transport people between star systems more economically. I immediately thought about Fast Drug. That reduces metabolism of the body (air, food, water) by 60 times. In other words 60 people would consume the same amount of L.S. as one person. One could pack 60 people into a star ship for a Jump with no additional cost, other than space, than one passenger. I see no reason why this wouldn't be a thing. Charging Cr. 1,000 each.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be happening outside of restrictive Empires or polities.

 

[MasterGwydion]

While looking at the Small craft Jump capable ships I have made I had to ask this question; Without artificial restrictions like gov't regs and the like how could you transport people between star systems more economically. I immediately thought about Fast Drug. That reduces metabolism of the body (air, food, water) by 60 times. In other words 60 people would consume the same amount of L.S. as one person. One could pack 60 people into a star ship for a Jump with no additional cost, other than space, than one passenger. I see no reason why this wouldn't be a thing. Charging Cr. 1,000 each.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be happening outside of restrictive Empires or polities.

Low Berths take up the same amount of space as an Acceleration Seat and only cost 100Cr in life support per 28 days and only cost 700Cr for a j-1 ticket. @Terry Mixon has expanded the Low Berth options. You should check them out. They are pretty cool.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Low Berths take up the same amount of space as an Acceleration Seat and only cost 100Cr in life support per 28 days and only cost 700Cr for a j-1 ticket. @Terry Mixon has expanded the Low Berth options. You should check them out. They are pretty cool.

I also created the FastBerth to keep passengers using the Fast Drug safe and entertained.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I also created the FastBerth to keep passengers using the Fast Drug safe and entertained.

Nice! I did not know that!

 

[Terry Mixon]

Nice! I did not know that!

It’s in the list my sig goes to for berths.

 

[swordtart]

While looking at the Small craft Jump capable ships I have made I had to ask this question; Without artificial restrictions like gov't regs and the like how could you transport people between star systems more economically. I immediately thought about Fast Drug. That reduces metabolism of the body (air, food, water) by 60 times. In other words 60 people would consume the same amount of L.S. as one person. One could pack 60 people into a star ship for a Jump with no additional cost, other than space, than one passenger. I see no reason why this wouldn't be a thing. Charging Cr. 1,000 each.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be happening outside of restrictive Empires or polities.

You could do this, but if you remove the restrictions it stops being a challenge and you might as well treat space travel like a bus journey.

The big challenges are space (as you say) and, more importantly for the passengers, time. If you need to take two weeks to get to a new main world (jump plus transits) then you need to wonder why you are travelling. Being strapped into a seat and drugged to the eyeballs seems a pretty depressing way to travel.

If it is a holiday then the round trip is excessive, you lose a months work time in travelling even before the vacation in the other system itself. This might work if it is a once in a lifetime trip but it isn't going to be something you do every year. You might make it more palatable if is more like a cruise and the journey was part of it (such as the liners do).

If it is business it is pretty inefficient. My assumption is that most people don't travel to other systems for work (travellers are the exception as their name implies). Again a month round trip makes it fairly implausible. Maybe it could if it were like student terms where you spend months at a time there and then got months off. This is how I assume military terms work - you spend 4 years with a few two week periods a year spent locally and save the rest for occasional trips back to the home world.

From a ship operators standpoint just the doses of Fast Drug per passenger per trip are Cr200 or Cr400 per month (and ignores the monthly maintenance and mortgage costs of any acceleration seat). This assumes you are not having to pay extra for Fast Antidote (as otherwise your passengers are out for the whole 2 months). The maintenance + mortgage and life support costs of a low berth are Cr358 per month.

From a passenger standpoint you would need to lower the price from the Cr700 of a low berth trip to make it more attractive and that lowers your margins further. You might be able to make it work if you allowed people to be strapped in to Acceleration Benches as you would double your yield, but personally I don't think that benches are viable for that sort of travel. Another way it could work is if the journey is longer than a single jump. The Cr200 dose lasts maybe two months. 100 per month is the same cost as Low Berth life support. The mortgage and maintenance of the Acceleration Couch is marginally less than that of a Low Berth, but it is pretty marginal for taking a non-standard and well established approach.

 

[MarcusIII]

From a passenger standpoint you would need to lower the price from the Cr700 of a low berth trip to make it more attractive and that lowers your margins further.

No, Low Berth gives a chance of death. Not so Fast Drug. So from a passenger viewpoint Fast drug would be preferable to Low Berth. Unless one had something of a death wish. The point isn't, "Are people travelling between systems?" but, "If they are what's the least expensive way to go? This would be the cheapest way and they aren't in any discomfort and to them it is simply laying lay for less than 3 hours.

$5,000 and a short nap is MUCH better than $40,000 and being stuck in cramped quarters for 268 hours. Most sane people who had to travel would probably chose Fast drug unless price was no concern.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

With fast drug you only age 1/60th of normal rate. So if you can be put under for the trip you not only don't have the tedium of a stateroom or the risk of death in a low berth but aging is minimized.

Someone who travels a lot (say a megacorp trouble shooter) actually extends their useful life. Sleeping through the trip would be best.

 

[swordtart]

No, Low Berth gives a chance of death.

That chance can be easily reduced to nil for the majority of passengers and it is fairly inexpensive to eliminate it for even an Endurance 0 passenger.

Not so Fast Drug. So from a passenger viewpoint Fast drug would be preferable to Low Berth. Unless one had something of a death wish. The point isn't, "Are people travelling between systems?" but, "If they are what's the least expensive way to go? This would be the cheapest way and they aren't in any discomfort and to them it is simply laying lay for less than 3 hours.

The reason people are travelling is highly relevant to the cost they are willing to bear.

There is more to the inconvenience than just sitting in a chair and spending several hours in a daze. The side effects of Fast Drug are not described, but there are bound to be some. You can slow your metabolism, you cannot slow the effects of the environment on you. Minor things that the body does automatically will need to be done for you unless you are in a completely sterile environment. If you are exposed to a contagion will the Fast Drug slow it down or will your immune system be slowed down so that it runs out of control before it can act.

$5,000 and a short nap is MUCH better than $40,000 and being stuck in cramped quarters for 268 hours. Most sane people who had to travel would probably chose Fast drug unless price was no concern.

Where did the $5000 come from?

Most sane people will not travel between systems at all. The costs are astronomical and the benefits marginal for most people. Those that do travel might well need the travelling time to prepare for their new destination. Those that don't need preparation time would prefer to travel for Cr700 than pay the extra you would need to charge to make a Fast Drug trip as profitable.

I prefer Fast Drug to be there as an emergency measure.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

I prefer Fast Drug to be there as an emergency measure.

I just don't understand the lack of a fast drug "stun" gun. A small dose that would keep you down for an hour to 2 would do.

 

[MarcusIII]

The side effects of Fast Drug are not described, but there are bound to be some.

Straw man. There are no listed side effects. So we are going by what is described. An almost nil chance of death for most people and 168 hours in a can is still worse than a 3 hour nap for most sane people. The $ value comes from the conversion from 77 Trav prices to today's $.

 

[swordtart]

With fast drug you only age 1/60th of normal rate. So if you can be put under for the trip you not only don't have the tedium of a stateroom or the risk of death in a low berth but aging is minimized.

Someone who travels a lot (say a megacorp trouble shooter) actually extends their useful life. Sleeping through the trip would be best.

I understood that aging was slowed in a Low Berth as well. Staterooms could well be tedious and the benefits of safe low berths are manifest. We have discussed elsewhere that Low Berths can be guaranteed safe at very little cost.

 

[rinku]

The main difference is that fast drug patients are still conscious. 1/60th of a week is 2.8 hours subjective time, which is long enough that a passenger can't be expected to just lie there and watch a movie or something. Many would, but there's always going to be SOME GUY that wants to get up and doesn't realise that he falls at 60 times the subjective rate. They would need either to be sedated (probably best) or strapped down.

Low Berths appear to be indefinite storage with very minimal supervision required. We have examples of people being unfrozen after centuries. Fast Drug lasts a set period of time, though they can be woken up early with an antidote.

Either way, I think it's fair to say that Fast Drug patients probably need more staff. And in the event of an emergency such as a misjump, the Drug Passengers are a problem once the drugs run out, while the frozen ones* are... a resource.

(*and their low berths)

 

[Condottiere]

When it comes to combat rules, you have to be explicit what something can and cannot do, as compared to roleplaying, where fuzzy logic may be more appropriate.

As an example, I don't expect a ruling on whether I could divide a fast drug into six doses, that will last ten days, as an alternative to the low berth; it may or may not work in Your Traveller Universe, it may or may not have side effect when mixed with a sedative, it's just an interesting extrapolation I came up with when I was studying the economics of interstellar travel that I shared.

Lazy Boy

Instead of giving them a diluted fast drug sedative cocktail, passengers could be strapped awake to acceleration chairs, and watch an extended version of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Sleeping Pods

Cut Fast Drug

Speaking of which, merchant ships optimized for a fast turnaround, don't really want passengers out of it for ten days, so instead by cutting the drug by six, it should be divided by seven, which is slightly less than eight days, thirteen and three quarters hours. That would be a sufficient duration to put them under just before launch, accelerate to the jump off point, and come out of it slightly after exiting, which makes the passengers mobile enough to disembark under their own steam.

 

[swordtart]

Straw man.

Straw Man would be if I had misrepresented part of your argument in a manner to easily defeat it. I have not done so.

For example a Straw Man would be taking an argument comparing the benefits of Low Berth vs Fats Drug and then representing that argument as the benefits of a stateroom vs Fast Drug.

There are no listed side effects. So we are going by what is described.

CSC p93.
"although fully awakening from the drug’s effects can take a few (1D) hours, during which time the user’s physical characteristics increase from 1 to their normal (or wound-adjusted) level at a steady rate"

So at revival you are endurance 1 and vulnerable.

For the old timers, the Traveller Book (201) p106
"Users are extremely vulnerable because they are living at such a slow rate"

An almost nil chance of death for most people and 168 hours in a can is still worse than a 3 hour nap for most sane people.

Not almost Nil, actually Nil. Routine check 6+, +1 for TL12 ship, +1 DM for Portable Medi Scanner (Cr2000), +1 DM for cheap expert system (<Cr300), +1 for skill (though this is low end, we could reasonably expect another +1 for INT or EDU or better skill). Failure is impossible for all endurance 6+ Passengers. Taking time +2 for the special needs passengers makes failure there impossible as well (ship could charge a premium for unhealthy passengers). Star ports can offer revival as a service and amortize even these minimal costs over hundreds of passengers a month, but it won't cost that much even for ships crew.

Low Berth passengers spend exactly the same time on the ship as the drugged people do. For the drugged people there is 168 hours of nap of which they only perceive as 3 hours. For the Low Berth there is a 168 hours of statis of which they are not aware at all.

The $ value comes from the conversion from 77 Trav prices to today's $.

 

[rinku]

I just don't understand the lack of a fast drug "stun" gun. A small dose that would keep you down for an hour to 2 would do.

That one is easy to address. The drug itself may not be fast acting enough in doses small enough to be delivered that way to weaponise.

Or... maybe that's what a tranq round is based on?

 

[MarcusIII]

We have discussed elsewhere that Low Berths can be guaranteed safe at very little cost.

But it is still MANY times more than risk free Fast drug. Also, by lowering cost to a couple hundred credit for no risk travel from Cr8,000 would cause a BOOM in people traveling. Anyone old enough to have been flying via commercial jet before Reagan deregulated airlines knows this to be a fact. A ticket that in 1972 was $4,800 one way (in today's $) now is about $58 round trip.

So, no doubt this would cause a MAJOR change in travel between the stars

 

[MarcusIII]

Straw Man would be if I had misrepresented part of your argument in a manner to easily defeat it.

Nope it is also creating a NEW argument that is NOT part of what is being argued and pointing to THAT in order to "win" the argument that was being examined.. Which is exactly what you did.

 

[MarcusIII]

Not almost Nil, actually Nil. Routine check 6+, +1 for TL12 ship, +1 DM for Portable Medi Scanner

Cool, so MORE expensive than a normal set up which would increase cost. So it is stikl a loser for the ship owner and the passenger. So why would a ship owner choose less revenue over more revenue?

 

[rinku]

Okay... going by the CRB description, it suggests that the patient is placed in hibernation by Fast Drug anyway, so scratch any thoughts about needing to entertain them. Dose them up and strap them in so they can't roll out of bed.

I do not think a standard acceleration couch is going to be suitable, although some kind of bunk bed arrangement would likely be equivalent in volume.

But keep in mind these are hibernating people. They still breathe and may move, and will almost certainly need nursing attention to avoid bedsores, or to deal with toilet matters, which frozen passengers will not. That can be automated, but robot crew vs live crew is a separate discussion.