Vegan (no, not that kind...) characters

[Whitehart]

I put this up on Reddit a while ago and would like to see if others here have some opinions.

I'm interested in playing a Vegan. According to the rules in the Solomani Front book, Vegans must take Drifter as their first career, representing the time they are searching for their tuhuir. How does this affect pre-career options? Would a Vegan go to University or Military Academy just to graduate and become a Drifter? If they need to take Drifter first, do they still suffer DM penalties for trying to join in a later term?

Also, if a career represents a tuhuir, which are generally joined for life, would mishaps force a Vegan out of a career?

 

[Vormaerin]

Pre Career is pre Career. It's before your first career (aka drifter).

 

[MasterGwydion]

Pre Career is pre Career. It's before your first career (aka drifter).

I think his point is that the Vegans don't have something like that in their culture. They go straight into Drifter upon leaving home.

 

[rinku]

Per CRB p.16 you can enter into pre-career options in second or third term, but suffer enrolment penalties for doing so. So they certainly can attend university or go to an academy.

Depending on the full wording of the rule and the description in the text of what's actually going on, it might be that they do pre-career the same as others (i.e. normally as their first term) then enter Drifter, or they might need to do Drifter as their first term and then proceed from there.

 

[Vormaerin]

That's not what it says. It says the first career not the first term must be drifter. You can decide that Vegans cannot go to any school at all if you would like, but there is nothing that says they have different pre-career options than anyone else. It says that their first career must be drifter and there are some modifications to certain careers because of how their society works.

There's no mention of university at all, either to modify it or disallow it. You can reasonably infer that Vegans don't do education that way, but it isn't a rule. And he asked about when they can go to university, before drifter or after? IMHO, either they are fine to go before they go to drifter or university isn't an option for them at all. If they have universities, pre career is pre career and if they don't, they don't.

 

[Whitehart]

Vegans do have universities. It's mentioned that there is a big one on their home planet of Muan Gwi. There's even a picture of Vegans attending class in the Solomani Front book

 

[Vormaerin]

I figured they did, but I was just looking at the rules for Vegan Chargen, which doesn't mention it at all. Though if you really wanted to be uptight about it, you could argue that's a scholar tuhuir not the pre-career university option

 

[rinku]

If only we had had CT Vegan character generation to base this off... (GURPS is not much help in this instance)

I don't have Solomani Front, but the original Library Data descriptions are clear that they embark on their search as they reach sexual maturity. That is, it's not something that would be deferred. So I would say the intent of the rule is likely to be that First Term = Drifter and pre-Career must be done later. But it also does not seem fair that they should be penalised.

Given that Vegans have a natural lifespan of about 200 years, I think it's probably fair to waive the limits on entering pre-Career options anyway. A human who signs up for Naval Academy at age 26 and who starts serving at 30 is already looking at a truncated career. A 26 year old Vegan is just a kid.

This question probably needs a look at other Vegan character generation rules, such as how they do ageing, how they do reenlistment and how they handle event enforced career ejection. Could be clues in those; if they're not addressed, some thinking may be required.

 

[ottarrus]

This can be an IMTU question. If your referee is fine with university before drifter, then go with it.
However, 'Military Academy' implies that a Vegan is joining the Guardians tuhuir, so we end up with a conflict... The character cannot select an education for their tuhuir if they have not joined one yet.
This, and the pacifist nature of Vegan society, implies to me that Vegan Covenant does not have a military academy. But this is also an IMTU decision.

 

[ottarrus]

No, I'm saying that there are good arguments for the Vegans to not have a military academy. A university system, absolutely. That's totally in keeping with Vegan culture.
And again, all this is really an IMTU question.

 

[rinku]

Occams Razor to me says Drifter term 1, anything else after that. Drifter -> pre-Enlistment -> Career, is legal.

Further thought... it's only a -1 to enrol in University in term 2, so maybe that's how it is for them too. Many Vegans consider it, but many keep searching. As they are generally pacifistic, -2 to enter the Academies in term 2 could make sense. Fewer Vegans than Humans tread that path.

I'm guessing there are special rules regarding Vegans enlisting in a career and what happens after that to keep them in it. Those might shed some light on all this.

 

[Vormaerin]

It says FIRST CAREER. It does not say FIRST TERM.

Vegan Terms are 16 years. In the category "CAREERS" it says they must choose Drifter for the first one. Either Scavenger or Wanderer, not Barbarian. It then says after their term as a Drifter, they can attempt to qualify for another career. University is not a career. So if you are going to say that they can't do pre career education because the first career is the same as first term, then you have to say that "may then join another career" means they can't go to pre-career options then either. In that interpretation, which I don't agree with, Vegan universities are the scholar Tuhuir.

If a Vegan leave any career besides Drifter, they have to roll a 10+ to continue in character generation at all.

Vegans can be in Agent, Citizen, Drifter, Entertainer, Merchant, Scholar, or Scout careers without modification. They are -2 to enroll in Rogue career. Noble, Army, Navy, and Marine careers are allowed, but have some different event tables compared to human careers.

 

[Whitehart]

If I were rewriting things, I would have probably made the Irrishtyoshun a mandatory form of pre-career education open only to Vegans.

IMTU, I would probably use Drifter as a first term, then University or Military Academy after that (as part of the Tuhuir) negating the dice penalties. I’d expect Vegans to have a military academy. They are pacifistic but have a military tradition and are willing to fight. Given the Vegan culture’s emphasis on education (they get +2 EDU after all), I’d certainly think that they’d want to educate their military officers.

The pre-career options in the Companion may be trickier to explain.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It says FIRST CAREER. It does not say FIRST TERM.

Vegan Terms are 16 years. In the category "CAREERS" it says they must choose Drifter for the first one. Either Scavenger or Wanderer, not Barbarian. It then says after their term as a Drifter, they can attempt to qualify for another career. University is not a career. So if you are going to say that they can't do pre career education because the first career is the same as first term, then you have to say that "may then join another career" means they can't go to pre-career options then either. In that interpretation, which I don't agree with, Vegan universities are the scholar Tuhuir.

If a Vegan leave any career besides Drifter, they have to roll a 10+ to continue in character generation at all.

Vegans can be in Agent, Citizen, Drifter, Entertainer, Merchant, Scholar, or Scout careers without modification. They are -2 to enroll in Rogue career. Noble, Army, Navy, and Marine careers are allowed, but have some different event tables compared to human careers.

What is that? Traveller material that was poorly written and the rules don´t reflect the fluff??? No! Say it ain´t so!

 

[Vormaerin]

Obviously, the different species have different term lengths is a game balance hack. Unless Vegans really do take 4 times as long to learn something as your average human.

And, yes, I agree that the best way to reflect the Irrishtyoshun would have been as a pre-career activity.

And, of course, going to university as part of your career is a thing too. My father got his bachelor's degree via the NESEP program (Naval Enlisted Science Education Program), which in game terms is like a retroactive ROTC program. When I was at university at the University of Rochester last century, a large portion of certain graduate programs were Kodak and Bausch & Lomb employees. I think it's still possible for active duty enlisted personnel to enroll in the US Naval Academy. And that's aside from people going to school on their own on top of their jobs.

So it is entirely reasonable that you do the drifter thing, then you enroll in a career and can go to university or the naval academy without it counting as leaving the career. That's not an option rules as written, but there's no reason it couldn't be.

 

[Whitehart]

Yeah, I always considered University, Military Academy, and Merchant Academy as only taking 4 years for Vegans. I doubt they would offer 16 year programs.

Spacer Community has been gray for me. Something seems like you can learn everything it teaches you before you’re 18 years old unless you specifically join one later in life.

Vegans definitely inhabit the Vega system (shocker!) which has no planets but two asteroid belts. If a Vegan grows up there, would it not get the skills and then leave for Irrishtyoshun at the normal age?

 

[Vormaerin]

People mining the belts and people residing in the belts are not the same thing. It might be that Vegans don't mind the commute given their longer lives.

I'm not a big fan of the belter pre-career option. I'd rather we just have homeworld backgrounds if we are going to start doing that kind of thing. *shrugs*

 

[Whitehart]

Well, the pre-career option is for those who reside in space. It’s not just for belters. It gives the profession skill, which could be belter, but could be other things as well.

It’s actually one of my favorite options.

 

[MasterGwydion]

People mining the belts and people residing in the belts are not the same thing. It might be that Vegans don't mind the commute given their longer lives.

I'm not a big fan of the belter pre-career option. I'd rather we just have homeworld backgrounds if we are going to start doing that kind of thing. *shrugs*

I always thought background skills should reflect your homeworld and your upbringing. A young noble on Tobia is going to have a much different upbringing than a young aslan noble. A street kid from a mid-tech garden world is going to have a much different skillset than a street kid from a space station.

 

[rinku]

I always thought background skills should reflect your homeworld and your upbringing. A young noble on Tobia is going to have a much different upbringing than a young aslan noble. A street kid from a mid-tech garden world is going to have a much different skillset than a street kid from a space station.

Firstly, let me say I don't object to some Homeworld screening. And there is always scope for the Referee to rule that a particular character or background should get bonus skills, or that they will require the characters to take certain background skills, individually or as a group. That might be for campaign reasons, because the player came up with an engaging background, or other reasons

But there are so many possibly backgrounds and uncommon but reasonable circumstances on any one homeworld that you end up back at picking the background that suits the skills you want to take anyway. Space Station kids can presumably still have pets, and learn Animals 0. Garden World kids might be space fans and have taken every chance to visit their moon or highport and picked up Vacc Suit 0. Desert planet kids might have learned how to sail a boat in a simulator or an artificial lake (...or a real one. Hydrographics zero still allows for up to 5% open water. On Earth that would be around 25 million square kilometers). Most of the background skill list is generic enough, and individual preferences are as important as environment and background.

I assume those sort of conversations are probably why Mongoose changed it in 2nd edition. There were problems with 1st edition using trade codes to regulate it. Seafarer being available only for water worlds and fluid oceans... only people from Rich worlds can take Carouse... only High Technology (TL 12+) people can start with Computers...

TNE had a version based directly on UWP values which made a lot more sense (i.e, Computer was available if your homeworld was TL6+; Small Watercraft required atmo 4-9 and Hydro 3+; Vacc Suit needed either atmo 0-3 OR TL6+; and so on, but with the majority of background skills being open to all). It wouldn't be hard to adapt the TNE background skill list, though once you convert the skills and remove specialisations it would end up looking similar to the current one. As an example, TNE has Guard/Hunting Beasts as an unrestricted background skill but Riding needing Atmo 4-9, but both are covered by Animals 0. On the other hand, that table is providing actual skill levels and there's a different list of level 0 defaults based on homeworld. But I think the table could be used as a starting point to redo the MGT1e one.