VaS Tournament 15th April 2007 Stafford Games

[hyndridge]

[/quote]
Just to try and clarify what I meant

With the AA ~ If they had to make the choice as to shoot at the one or the other before rolling, it would prevent the "gamey" situations that can arise, dont the rules currently say you split the AA AD as you want against different aircraft, I assume this to mean before you roll as Page 7 states Nominate target for each weapon that will be fired, and page 15 says AA may freely split their FIRE among multiple targets (It does NOT state freely split the damage)

With the dogfights ~ As I understand it the rules do not currently cover multiple aircraft dogfights, my point was in reality a single fighter could possibly take one with him as he goes down in flames, I dont know what the real solution is for this, maybe a single one to one combat, with a plus 1 for each extra plane, maybe the supplement will sort it out, maybe other ....

Anyway I hope the Tourny goes well whatever way you play it :wink:[/quote]

Having re-read all the relevant rules I have to agree with you about the AA and have now amended the rules pack.

As for the multiple flight dogfight the rules state that 'every flight in contact with an enemy flight must engage in dogfighting. Both players roll one dice each and add their flights dogfight scores', I have taken this to include multiple flight dogfights

Roland

 

[hyndridge]

Aircraft were not all that effective, and if anything the rulebook appears to make them "too"effective. These house rules improve them even further.

Personally I do not like the shooting changes as destroyers should be hard to hit, but once they are then they're as good as dead. Modifying the rules to allow hits at 7+ cahnges the balance of the rules completely. If you want to stand a chance of hitting a destroyer at long range, you need to use observation aircraft and radar. If youn have'nt got these you have to wait a little longer and use your secondaries instead (actually quite historical).

Torpedoes were not expected to sink a ship with one hit, and indeed multiple hits were needed to sink all but tramp steamers and the smallest of ships. Torpedoes were set at 2 different levels to do differing damage to ships. Shallow for cruisers and destroyers and deep for capital ships. Also torpedoes missing the first target could run on and still hit something beyond the original target. None of this is in the rulebook, but I do feel that VaS is a good set of rules without any amendment at this time.

As an active part of the WPS I have been accused of changing rules for WAB in the past, too quickly. However, the WPS WAB rules committee came to the conclusion that we could improve the game without over compilcating it, therefore it was better to leave the major changes to the rule writer. What is the viewpoint of the writer?

I know that this is only my one viewpoint, but I do hope that changes are not implemented too quickly to these rules, as I for one would end up with very few opponents for this game, as I will not adopt these house rules. New rules draw people into the hobby. Please dont make drastic changes to scare them away!

Trev

Hi Trev,

Just to get back to hopefully answering some of your points.

Yours views on aircraft are not echoed by a lot of people on this forum who believe aircraft to be underated. I believe some people have been using up to 6AD per flight!

I wanted to make it a little easier to sink destroyers in particular because of some bad experiences with invincible destroyers in games and the amount of discussion on this forum. The death or glory charges of destroyers in VaS rarely happened due to the almost certainty of destruction. They were mainly used to finnish ships off but because it is a one off game you are more tempted to use them on suicide missions.

Not quite sure what your point is about torpedoes because I have not altered them from the book.

I also have been playing Naval wargames since the early 70's starting with a book called 'Sea Battle Games' (which I still have) and feel that VaS has the potential to do for Naval wargaming what FOW has done for WW2.

There isn't a rule set that has been published that was perfect from the start and it is the feedback from the players actually playing the game and trying 'house rules' that has helped fine tune these rule sets so I don't think that what I am doing is a problem, I certainly haven't had any complaints from Mongoose.

Roland

 

[juggler69uk]

As for the multiple flight dogfight the rules state that 'every flight in contact with an enemy flight must engage in dogfighting. Both players roll one dice each and add their flights dogfight scores', I have taken this to include multiple flight dogfights

Roland

Yes I agree it could be read that way, strike another one for fuzziness,

Perhaps this is one for the Rulesmeisters, any comments rules guys ??

how are multiple flights(more than 2) in dogfights handled, is the above correct ???

 

[hyndridge]

Errr... Eviul Trev - in the rulebook Torps arent adjusted for mast moving targets. Is this a house rule that your playing?

You can either listen to other peoples opinions as I have had to do for several years now with the WPS or you can choose to ignore them, but whether you like it or not, they still have opinions. Nowadays, I try to listen to everybody else's view before "blasting them out of the water". Pardon the pun.

I did say that I think there is a good ruleset here, and that I hope it does not get too heavily changed after 1 event. All that does, is make you feel there was not enough play-testing, which I am sure is not the case.

If you are looking for areas that IMO could be changed for a more historical and probably more important point "playable" game, then I would suggest

1. No flying in bad weather
2. The use of Flank speed should be limited.
3. Main Turrets should not be able to target different ships in the same turn..............it simply was'nt done.

Now thats my two bobs worth. I thought that dogfights also occured twice in the turn, and consequently as we are trying to play a naval game, I think that the fact that planes have trouble disposing of ships, then there is probably a good balance there. I also noted the change for your next event taking land based aircraft, subs, and the largest warships out. That should lean towards some well balanced cruiser actions.

I look forward to the opportunity of coming down further South for an event, but the principal reason I am going to the Sheffield event is, that it is on a Saturday, and Sundays are limited in my case. However, I will pick up the gauntlet and come down hopefully in the not too distant future.

I am very pleased that there are people out there that are still prepared to spend their own time and money getting things right, for all those that are'nt prepared too. Hopefully those that "DO" can perm some useful comments from my points.

Trev

Hi Trev,

I have listened to peoples opinion and have changed a couple of things in the rules pack.

From what I can tell it was extensively playtested but the rules were proof read by people who knew what the writer intended and had played ACTA so read between the lines when the rules were a little vague.

I agree with the areas that you suggest need looking at and have addressed the issue of flank speed in the rules pack however you canot state in one post that its too early to start changing the rules and then in the next post suggest changes!

The 'two dogfights per turn' is open to interpretation but if you are a ACTA player you would presume that that was what was intended because that is the way it is played in that rule set. I don't read it that way and have just clarified how it will work in the tournament.

BTW Stafford is west of you not south, we have a games night every Wednesday and you are very welcom to come over and play VaS, WAB or FOW.

Roland

 

[Court Jester]

As for the multiple flight dogfight the rules state that 'every flight in contact with an enemy flight must engage in dogfighting. Both players roll one dice each and add their flights dogfight scores', I have taken this to include multiple flight dogfights

Roland

Yes I agree it could be read that way, strike another one for fuzziness,

Perhaps this is one for the Rulesmeisters, any comments rules guys ??

how are multiple flights(more than 2) in dogfights handled, is the above correct ???

That is how we first played the rules but I believe it was ruled that you roll each dogfight seperatly so one high quality squadron outnumbered by 2-3 flights should be able to shoot them all down...

I'll see if I can find the post...

 

[hyndridge]

As for the multiple flight dogfight the rules state that 'every flight in contact with an enemy flight must engage in dogfighting. Both players roll one dice each and add their flights dogfight scores', I have taken this to include multiple flight dogfights

Roland

Yes I agree it could be read that way, strike another one for fuzziness,

Perhaps this is one for the Rulesmeisters, any comments rules guys ??

how are multiple flights(more than 2) in dogfights handled, is the above correct ???

That is how we first played the rules but I believe it was ruled that you roll each dogfight seperatly so one high quality squadron outnumbered by 2-3 flights should be able to shoot them all down...

I'll see if I can find the post...

Would be usefull if all these 'rulings' were complied in the FAQ that has recently been published.

Roland

 

[Court Jester]

Indeed...

Although it seems it was not actually ruled... just someone disagreeing with our interpretation and I didn't want to get in an interwebs arguument...

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25112

 

[juggler69uk]

That is how we first played the rules but I believe it was ruled that you roll each dogfight seperatly so one high quality squadron outnumbered by 2-3 flights should be able to shoot them all down...

I'll see if I can find the post...

That is how we currently play it

 

[Poi]

It came up at the Mongoose tourney.

Matt ruled that rather than adding all dogfight values together, each dogfight was handled in turn, which would allow even a severely outnumbered bomber to fight off all it's attackers one at a time.

 

[hyndridge]

Due to a clarification on dogfights by Matt in the Rulesmaster section I have up-dated the Tournament Rules Pack again!

Hopefully that should be it!

There will be last minute practise games next Wednesday at the shop if anyone is interested.

Roland

 

[juggler69uk]

Due to a clarification on dogfights by Matt in the Rulesmaster section .......

Roland

Link to thread mentioned where matts clarification of multiple dogfights is
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26660

 

[Draymar]

Play tested your house rules on Sunday night. They seem to work OK. Looking forward to a pratice game tonight. The mighty US fleet will once again rule the waves.

 

[hyndridge]

Play tested your house rules on Sunday night. They seem to work OK. Looking forward to a pratice game tonight. The mighty US fleet will once again rule the waves.

Dream on!

You will have to get past the mighty Italians first!

Roland

 

[squiffy]

But the Russians will get you all!

 

[Draymar]

The last time I saw your Italian fleet, it seemed to be running away. Or am mistaken? :twisted:

 

[hyndridge]

The last time I saw your Italian fleet, it seemed to be running away. Or am mistaken? :twisted:

Tactical withdrawal you mean!

 

[juggler69uk]

The last time I saw your Italian fleet, it seemed to be running away. Or am mistaken? :twisted:

Tactical withdrawal you mean!

Or did they steam up behind you while you were advancing... to the rear

 

[hyndridge]

Its the big day tomorrow!

Prizes are as follows:-

1st - £20.00
2nd - £15.00
3rd - £10.00

See you all in the morning.

Roland

 

[Evil Trev]

Errr... Eviul Trev - in the rulebook Torps arent adjusted for mast moving targets. Is this a house rule that your playing?

I was just asking!



BTW Stafford is west of you not south, we have a games night every Wednesday and you are very welcom to come over and play VaS, WAB or FOW.

Roland

I can usually arrange work to be somewhere near. I just may take this offer up. What time do you meet, and where?

Trev

 

[hyndridge]

Games night is from 7pm-11pm on Wednesday night at the shop

We have five 6'x4' tables available so there is usually one spare.

How did you get on on Saturday!

Roland