Use The Battlefield

I'm going to be roleplaying combat in my game with lots of descriptive color and the players describing exactly how they are swinging their weapons and such.

Player: Gripping my spear with both hands, I shove it in front of me, trying to skewer the Vanir.

Attack roll is made. Vanir blocks. Miss.

GM: As you step into him, he brings his mighty warsword down on the haft of your spear, swinging the thing with both of his hands. He knocks the tip away, recovers, then, with the blade at his shoulder, he powers a diagonal slice across your torso.

Player: I jump back a foot, attempting to dodge his blade.

Vanir attack roll is made. Player dodges. Miss.

And so on....



My point is to make the players live through the experience rather than just normal hit/damage d20 dicing.

We're going to use mask-shift miniatures and a grid map for battles. I don't have any minis, but I can use the flat counters I got in the Shadizar and Messantia boxed sets. And, I also use thumb tacks and a cork board with graph paper to represent characters sometime, depending on the scale I need.

I'm going to use the heck out of the Conan combat maneuvers. These things look like they can be a lot of fun and really add to the combat-roleplaying experience. Many of them involve movement on the board, but I want to encourage a bit more movement during a combat encounter.

In real life, fighters don't just stand face-to-face and pound each other. They move around--a lot--looking for weaknesses in their opponent's defense.

To encourage this type of movement on the battlefield, I'm thinking of using the Use The Battlefield combat maneuver as it is written, but also as described here. The maneuver seems to be open to interpretation anyway.

There will be lots of movement on the board when a PC is fighting more than one opponenent. It's those one-on-one encounters that need a poke to get moving.



Use of Use the Battlefield: If a character uses his five foot step to move to either side of his enemy, he receives a +2 attack circumstance bonus. But, if the attack is a miss, the defender gets an immediate AoO on the attacker.

This simulates the attacker, circling his enemy, looking for a weak spot, attacking his opponent on his weakest side--and the combat traps that are laid by a skilled defender.

In place of a skill check suggested in the maneuver description, the attacker must use his five foot step.





What do you guys think of that? Fair and balanced and in-line with the Use the Battlefield maneuver? With one-on-one fights, this will basically encourage constant movement of the combatants. With this, and the the other combat maneuvers, the battle should shift across the battlefield instead of remain in two squares with two opponents slugging it out.

Thoughts?







EDIT: I'm thinking this isn't a bad use of this combat maneuver at all. It's kind of the attacker's version of the Cat's Parry. With that manevuer, it's the defender's call to use it. The attacker gets +4 to hit, but if he misses, the defender gets a freebie AoO on him.

With the rule above, it's the attacker who initiates, but he only gets a +2 attack and has to use his five foot step in a specific way.





2nd EDIT: The +2 modifier can only be used on one attack--usually the first one. If THAT attack misses, the character draws an AoO. If, for some reason, the character wishes to use the modifier on the second attack, he may do so, but the modifier drops to +1 (and, if the second attack misses--not the first, in this case--then the attacker draws an AoO.).







3rd EDIT: Thinking even more on this, I don't like the bonus it gives to Finess Fighters. With the Cat's Parry, it's the defender who chooses to give the attacker a +4 bonus to hit. So, allowing he attacker to choose this isn't going to work.

Back to the drawing board.
 
Vambelte said:
Be carefull whit attack bonus. +to hit and power attack don't go well togheter, it can break your game...

Yes. I appreciate that advice. You are correct. Not to mention the effect it has on finesse fighting.

I'm putting more thought into this.
 
What if we use the Balance rule from the Player's Guide? All we'd have to do is throw in the requirement that the person using the Balance rule has to move to one of the sides of his opponent--which makes sense, if you're trying to keep your opponent off balance.

Thoughts?

Vincent, do you have an opinion on this?





EDIT: I wonder if I should just use the Balance rule as-is (except adding the mandatory five foot move), or if I should combine it with the Use the Battleground rule where a DC 20 Balance check should be made before the Balance rule can be used.

Thoughts on this, too?





2nd EDIT: @Vincent - Man, that Balance rule in the Player's Guide is pretty strong. Slapping points into Balance is the key to winning them. Pardon the pun, but the rule seems a bit "unbalanced" to me. Which is not like you at all--you seem to think your rules through very thoroughly.

I assume balance while fighting is part of the character's "level".

How about allowing the defender to use his rank in Balance plus is BAB before going to the chart? That way, you'd need quite a high Balance score to have the bonus. Plus, the more skilled a warrior is, the harder it would be to gain this bonus on him.

For example, a 4th level Soldier with no ranks in Balance is fighting a 2nd level Barbarian with 6 ranks in Balance.

Soldier BAB 4 + 0 Balance = 4
Barbarian 6 Balance = 6

That means there's no bonus. (Under your rule in the book, he would have a +1 attack an +1 defence vs. the Soldier).

But, the same barbarian fights a 1st level Thief with 1 rank in Balance, the barbarian does get the +1/+1 bonus.

As is, your Balance rule just seems a bit "strong" to me, allowing those with lots of ranks in Balance to kick some arse.
 
Supplement Four said:
Vincent, do you have an opinion on this?

No. I don't. That manoeuvre didn't exist when I wrote the stuff on Balance (it was originally written for the Zingara book), and I didn't even know the manoeuvre existed until I was pointed to this thread (until two weeks ago, most of my players were still using the Atlantean edition book).

I don't use minis or counters or grids or hexes, so I just describe the combat as swirling about and whatnot, and I really would only use the Player's Guide balance rules in a one-on-one melee at the climax of an adventure. I wouldn't mess with it in a general combat scene.

Generally, I just do what seems the most fun at the moment. I don't worry much about strict interpretations or making sure I am interpreting it "right." This is probably a hold over from learning the game from AD&D (1st edition), where the rules tended to be vague and/or confusing - and forums didn't exist to ask these kinds of questions (it was 1981 after all). If everyone is having fun, you are playing it right.

Sorry if that isn't the answer you want. I'd say try it - and if it was fun, keep doing it. If it sucked, don't do it again and/or try something different.
 
Supplement Four said:
@Vincent - Man, that Balance rule in the Player's Guide is pretty strong. Slapping points into Balance is the key to winning them. Pardon the pun, but the rule seems a bit "unbalanced" to me. Which is not like you at all--you seem to think your rules through very thoroughly.

The balance rule was meant for fencers and to give people a reason to spend points in balance. As a fencer, balance is key to winning duels. If the other person gets off balance, you win. Simple.

The balance suggestion in the Player's Guide is NOT meant for use in general combat, but meant to reflect how balance can play a part in a fencing duel. Even if an opponent is more accurate than me, has more reach than I do, and is faster than me... I can win if he lacks balance or if I get him off balance. There used to be fencing schools which focused on movement and balance for a year before giving the kids a sword - balance is that key.

Still... when you roll the dice, even someone with a +10 balance could lose to someone with a +2 balance. If the former rolls a 2, he has a 12 balance score, and the latter rolls a 20, he has a 22 score (a difference of 10). The high balance can shift back and forth each round.

Anyway, it was meant for the fencing battles I wrote of in the Zingaran book, but the editors took it out (although left my references to it in), so I put in in the guide.
 
VincentDarlage said:
Generally, I just do what seems the most fun at the moment. I don't worry much about strict interpretations or making sure I am interpreting it "right."

That's because you have a strong command of the Conan RPG rules. I believe that a good GM needs to learn the rules as written, and then (and only then) make changes or play off the cuff once he has a good command of the rules.

So, if it seems like I'm always asking for the strict rule interpretation, and I am and I'm not. I am, because I figure that the rule author (usually) spent a lot of time making the best rule he could. Once I get a superior command of the many aspects of the game, I'm much more likely to ad-lib rules or play off the cuff.

Plus, my players, while not strictly rules-lawyers, want to know what the rules are. They don't like it if I tell them one thing and then change it. I need to be consistent. Which is why I always evaluate rules with a fine toothed comb when I make House Rules, and I always want to know what the about the "official" method.




As for the Balance rule....so, what you're saying is that a character needs a fencing style (a swordsmanship style from Argos, Zingara, or Aquilonia?) in order to use it?

I like the rule. I just think it needs to be tempered a bit for general consumption as written. If you're saying it can only be used if a character has a certain fighting style feat, then that's all the tempering it needs. It will be just another benefit of getting that feat.

If it's for general consumption, then I think there needs to be some restrictions place on it.
 
I require my players to have one of the fencing skills or the intricate swordplay feat to use the balance rules.

I might also let them use the balance rules if they were fighting on something with a variable surface (like the rotating platform used in the Flash Gordon movie) or where balance would obviously come into play (on a tree limb).

Otherwise, its too much math to deal with.
 
It seems to me, to get the realistic movement I want on the battlefield, the most simple thing to do is just require a character who dodges to actually move a five foot square to represent his dodge. No longer would it be possible to stay in the same square and dodge. This goes along with the rules a bit (although I know the rules say differently) in that, when a character is hemmed in on all sides, dodge is not possible (makes more sense than not requiring the dodger to move from his square but still not allow him to dodge if hemmed in on all sides).

The attacker gets a free follow with the dodger, if the attacker chooses. Otherwise, it will be to easy to disengage from melee.

It's not a bad idea--it's how I thought the rules read when I read them the first time.

I'm not adding any flanking plusses to attack throws either.

I'm going to give this some more thought, but I like the idea.
 
That would probably work better if you used hexes instead of squares, otherwise, you just have people making 90 degree turns all the time.
 
VincentDarlage said:
That would probably work better if you used hexes instead of squares, otherwise, you just have people making 90 degree turns all the time.

Naw, not really. They can slide diagonally into a spot.

If all the squares are open, the character dodging can dodge into either right or left of the attacker, getting closer to him. To the left or right of the current space. Straight back or diagonally back left or right are the other options.

That's seven places to go.



I'll admit, though. I just don't like forcing the dodger to move.

I want to come up with something different. Something like your balance rule--but different.

Still thinking.
 
You should measure out an actual 5 foot square... that is a lot of room for the movement you are discussing - without making the dodger hop around the battlefield. Again, I just think you need good description of the battle, not actually making the minis move about. The minis just show basic position for attacks of opportunity, flanking, and the like - the characters can still be shifting about, going from corner to corner of their five foot square, or even trading squares, then back again. The minis don't show actual position and movement - just relative position and movement.
 
VincentDarlage said:
You should measure out an actual 5 foot square... that is a lot of room for the movement you are discussing - without making the dodger hop around the battlefield.

Yeah, but we play on a grid. I'll use the vanilla rule to count the first diagonal as 1 square and the second as two squares when movement is concerned. But, for dodging, I think one square is fine.

I don't think I'm going to require a square of movement to dodge, though. I'm going to try to come up with something else.

Again, I just think you need good description of the battle, not actually making the minis move about.

Which is the way we've always done it, in our AD&D 2E games especially. But, I want to try something new in this game. If it doesn't work, we can always go back.
 
Here's a thought:

What about a new combat maneuver? We'll call it "Step Inside," "Circle Step," or something like that. It can be use only in one-on-one combat, and it simulates two fighters, circling, looking for that weakness in the defesnes of his opponent.

The attacker uses his five foot step to move to either side of the target. The defender is immediately allowed an Attack of Opportunity, but so is the Attacker.

It's kinda like trading AoO's. You get an extra attack in the round at the expense of your five foot step and having to defend against your target's free attack first.

This would be a tool that better fighters would use on weaker opponents (since the better fighter can withstand the blow).



So...the rule would be (thinking out loud again):

1. Can only be used in a one-on-one fight.
2. Attacker initiates it by using his five foot step to move to the side of his oppoinent (who gets a free action to continually face the attacker).
3. Defender gets his free AoO.
4. Attacker gets his free AoO and his normal attack.







Maybe a second version of this could be used on larger or more skilled fighters--as the fighter tries to keep the better/bigger fighter chasing him. This can be used if the opponent is at least one size category bigger. Or it can be used if the defender is X number of (fighter) levels higher than the attacker.

It would work similarly to the above. Attacker has to move to a side square. Defender gets free action to change facing. Defender gets freebie AoO. But the attacker gets a plus on his defense to both the defender's AoO and any other blow the defender makes this round.

Defense bonus could be, what? +2? +4? Based on level difference? Equal to BAB?

This would simulate the attacker having to keep moving, using is footwork to keep him from being dead at the hands of he more skilled fighter. The attacker suffers an AoO from a superior fighter, but he also gains a bonus to his defense.

The version of the maneuver can only be used when the attacker has the initiative.



Work in progress. Thoughts?
 
I have created one feat called side step.


Side step
Pre: Canny defense, BAB6+
When you dodge an attack you get +4 to one attack roll against the enemy that missed you. You can use just one side step per round.


Canny defense (another feat I've created)
Pre: Mobility, Combat expertise, Dodge
+Int modifier on Dodge DV.
 
Hey, good stuff with this feat, but I'm inclined to wonder if it might work better as a Combat Maneuver?

SIDE STEP
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes
Circumstances: You have just Parryed a melee attack from an adjacent opponent.
Benefits: You may take a 5-foot step adjustment as an immediate action; in addition, your next attack roll against this opponent is made at a +2 circumstance bonus.
 
Here's what I'm considering using--



CIRCLE STEP combat maneuver

Circumstance: The character must have initiative and be in melee combat with a single opponent, and the character must dodge blows to receive the benefit.

Effect: The character must attack in one square and then use his five foot step to circle his opponent, moving to one of the two sqares beside his opponent--moving to the side that makes it most awkward for his opponent to strike (if the opponent is right handed, then the character must move to his opponent's right). His opponent can adjust facing as a free action, but the character recieves a +1 circumstance bonus to his Dodge.





How would this play out? A Vanir and Cimmerian are locked in melee. The Cimmerian has initiative. The Cimmerian would strike, then use his five foot step to move to his opponent's right, since the Vanirman is right handed.

This ends the Cimmerian's turn. He strikes facing the Vanir, then circles to the Vanir's right. In effect, the Cimmerian is circleing his enemy, looking for a weakness, striking, and then continuing to move to make for a harder target.

The Vanir changes facing as a free action and strikes at the Cimmerian. The Cimmerian gets a +1 bonus if he Dodges (not if he parries).

The Vanir cannot perform the same manevuer as he doesn't have initiative.





What do you think? I'm considering adding a -1 penalty to the Cimmerian's attack to counter the +1 bonus to Dodge.

Thoughts on this?







EDIT: Got it. Try this on for size...

CIRCLE STEP combat maneuver

Circumstance: The character must have initiative and be in melee combat with a single opponent.

Effect: The character must attack from his starting square then use his five foot step to circle his opponent, moving to one of the two sqares beside his opponent. He must move to the side that makes it most awkward for his opponent to strike. If his opponent is right handed, then the character must move to his opponent's right. His opponent can adjust facing as a free action, but the character recieves a +1 circumstance bonus to his Defense.

If the character Parries, then he must also take a -1 penalty on his attack before he moves to get the +1 bonus to his Parry after the move. If the character Dodges, the attack is made normally, and the character receives the +1 circumstance bonus to his Dodge defence after the move.

In effect, the character is circling his opponent, striking, and always moving to make himself the hardest target to hit.
 
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