Unscientific Gut Feeling Feedback on EDG Worldgen

[captainjack23]

OK, but there are 25 of those types of worlds in one sector, what is the explanation for all the other


<snip>

Hmmm. Actually, 25/16 isn't even two per subsector .
Not too hard to see as coaling stations, and a few research bases.

Are we talking completely empty (pop 0) planets ? Or just really low planets ?

Its surprising if its the 0 pop/A port that is that frequent..- thats a pretty unlikely result . Let me check out the freq and prob info.

The results for the MGT /Ct are interesting when this anomalous world issue is considered.

Heres the frequency of the pop 0 worlds by starport for 100010 MGT planets:

PORT   count   %
------------------------
A          239  0.24
B          577  0.58
C          896   0.90
D          707  0.71
E          392  0.39 
X           78  0.07

Total of anomolous worlds, (pop 0 , pop A-D) = 2.4%

Soooooo....the simple version of how many you'll get per sector is about 15. Just less than 1 per subsector. In any subsector theres a 38% chance of never even seeing one example. l
and at that there's a better than 50% chance that that one will be a type D or worse.

Of the classic "anomaly" world, the A0 condition, we get: .24%, or on average, 1.5 total per sector (640 worlds). A 90% chance of not getting any persubsector


So, okay, obviously you mean "low pop worlds with good starports" are the problem ...what is the low pop cutoff for your criterea ?


If we assume than any of the starports could be run by a pop 3 planet (9999 max,)then, assuming anomaly as 2 or less, we get

PORT
------------------------
A         1386  1.385861
B         3310  3.309669
C         5044  5.043496
D         4250  4.249575
E         2293  2.292771
X          450  0.449955

so, I'm looking at the numbers here, and it does look like that is the population of anomolous worlds. Pop 3 or less, type A or B.

Its not hard to imagine a type C starport run by pop 2 (100-999 people ?)

So, we have A&B ports with population 0-2 as the issue.

expected number of type A or B starports with less than 1000 planetary population:
4.6% , or 1.8. almost two -thirds of these will be type B, in any case.

The expected value for a low pop type A starport is .5 per subsector.

 

[EDG]

Its not hard to imagine a type C starport run by pop 2 (100-999 people ?)

I'm sure that a few hundred people would be more than enough to run a Type C, but I think it's too small a population for the planet to generally warrant having a type C starport in the first place. I'd say you'd need a minimum population of 3 (a few thousand) to warrant it's existence.

 

[AKAramis]

Its not hard to imagine a type C starport run by pop 2 (100-999 people ?)

I'm sure that a few hundred people would be more than enough to run a Type C, but I think it's too small a population for the planet to generally warrant having a type C starport in the first place. I'd say you'd need a minimum population of 3 (a few thousand) to warrant it's existence.

Actually, the starport may just be the justification for the population... some company wanted a warehouse there for it's central distribution, or there is a base, or it is a resort, or a semi rehabilitated pirate haven (Several cities in the Caribbean are in fact just that!).

 

[EDG]

Actually, the starport may just be the justification for the population... some company wanted a warehouse there for it's central distribution, or there is a base, or it is a resort, or a semi rehabilitated pirate haven (Several cities in the Caribbean are in fact just that!).

I'm inclined to give Type Cs a bit more slack on here, tbh... they're basically the equivalent of a car garage with (unrefined) refuelling pumps, and you can usually find at least one of those in most towns (even small ones). They're not that hard to set up, anyway.

The As and Bs though - having the full shipyards, repair facilities, and refined fuel - those would be a lot harder to justify in that situation. If someone did decide to upgrade a C or D on a low pop world to an A or B, I think the local population should increase over a reasonably short time to at least the minimum required to make the starport worthwhile (due to immigrants, people stopping off to find work at the startown, etc).

 

[captainjack23]

Not too hard to see as coaling stations, and a few research bases.

Are we talking completely empty (pop 0) planets ? Or just really low planets ?

Zero pop planets - they're completely uninhabited.

Turns out it can't be just zero pop worlds in the example. Numbers don't add up. details in my post between these two.

 

[EDG]

Not too hard to see as coaling stations, and a few research bases.

Are we talking completely empty (pop 0) planets ? Or just really low planets ?

Zero pop planets - they're completely uninhabited.

Turns out it can't be just zero pop worlds in the example. Numbers don't add up. details in my post between these two.

You've lost me - what exactly are you looking for here again? I thought it was for C+ starports with Population 0?

I just doublechecked and I've got one A, three Bs, and one C starport with zero population in my CT quadrant.

EDIT: I've got 5040 worlds with Starport A/B/C and pop 0 in the 250k CT run (2%). If I include starport D in that, I get a total of 5850 (2.3%). I guess the quadrant just has an slightly large cluster of populationless starports (5 out of 147 worlds = 3.4%)?

 

[captainjack23]

Its not hard to imagine a type C starport run by pop 2 (100-999 people ?)

I'm sure that a few hundred people would be more than enough to run a Type C, but I think it's too small a population for the planet to generally warrant having a type C starport in the first place. I'd say you'd need a minimum population of 3 (a few thousand) to warrant it's existence.

As Aramis points out, it's more than enough justification for a coaling station, commercial or military. Milspec especially as they usually can handle unrefined fuel, which is what type C has, and the ships have lots of their own repair stuff in the fleet train...in this universe, hauling parts and engineers is nothing besides fuel.

Bermuda pretty much owes its existence to that kind of situation. Lots of places were (and are) base + retired or civilian contractors. And sometimes not even the offbase exists: Thule AFB, Greenland comes to mind. B-52 runways, Jp fuel and snow. Lots of snow. LOTS and LOTS of snow. And lots of cold E-5 flightline crew.

 

[captainjack23]

Turns out it can't be just zero pop worlds in the example. Numbers don't add up. details in my post between these two.

You've lost me - what exactly are you looking for here again? I thought it was for C+ starports with Population 0?

Not in this case. from the above post:

If we assume than any of the starports could be run by a pop 3 planet (9999 max,)then, assuming anomaly as 2 or less, we get
[Code:]

PORT
------------------------
A 1386 1.385861
B 3310 3.309669
C 5044 5.043496
D 4250 4.249575
E 2293 2.292771
X 450 0.449955

[/code]
so, I'm looking at the numbers here, and it does look like that is the population of anomolous worlds. Pop 3 or less, type A or B.

I just doublechecked and I've got one A, three Bs, and one C starport with zero population in my CT quadrant.

Your count (5/4 per subsector) is probably close to expected for that set (I'll check later if I think about it), that's nice, but you're counting the wrong planets. I was curious about the 25 unreasonable but otherwise unspecified pop/starport combinations, so I was taking back bearings as it were, to estimate the actual stats. It gave me some context of what an unreasonable world was (in that discussion).

 

[captainjack23]

Its not hard to imagine a type C starport run by pop 2 (100-999 people ?)

I'm sure that a few hundred people would be more than enough to run a Type C, but I think it's too small a population for the planet to generally warrant having a type C starport in the first place. I'd say you'd need a minimum population of 3 (a few thousand) to warrant it's existence.

Actually, It would be helpful if you could clarify what you feel does warrant a starport of various types. Might put your discussion in better context, at least.

 

[EDG]

Its not hard to imagine a type C starport run by pop 2 (100-999 people ?)

I'm sure that a few hundred people would be more than enough to run a Type C, but I think it's too small a population for the planet to generally warrant having a type C starport in the first place. I'd say you'd need a minimum population of 3 (a few thousand) to warrant it's existence.

Actually, It would be helpful if you could clarify what you feel does warrant a starport of various types. Might put your discussion in better context, at least.

I did. See:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=483390#483390 , in your own "broken world frequencies" thread (I posted my results for the CT, EDG, and MGT runs too).

But to list the starport limits again here:

Starport A: Pop 7+ and/or Tech 9+
Starport B: Pop 5+ and/or Tech 7+
Starport C: Pop 3+ and/or Tech 4+
Starport D: Pop 1+ and/or Tech 4+
Starport E: Any Pop and/or any Tech
Starport X: Any Pop and/or Tech 8-

 

[AKAramis]

The problem is that a Type A starport is really only defined as having the following:

A yard which can build starships (including jump drives), Refined Fuel, and full repair.

The B Port minimums are a Yard which can build non-starships, be they space ships or small craft, and can repair starships, plus refined fuel.

The C port minimum is Fuel and a yard which can build small craft and repair spacecraft.

The D Port has fuel and some landing aid.

The E port has nothing but a landing area, and usually a landing aid (specifically a beacon).

None of them canonically defined sizes of the port.

 

[EDG]

The C port minimum is Fuel and a yard which can build small craft and repair spacecraft.

The shipyard at a type C is news to me. Book 6 says it's "routine quality with unrefined fuel, some repair facilities". That says "refuelling station plus mechanics, workshop and tools" - a small shipyard makes it a hell of a lot bigger (and ups the minimum TL to 7).

None of them canonically defined sizes of the port.

I know. Which is why I'm doing it now.

 

[Deniable]

p.177 of v3.2 give the C starport "Shipyard (small craft)"

And the E port is listed as having unrefined fuel and frontier quality. The D port adds some repair and improves quality. So it seems they've upped the quality of the lesser ports.

 

[EDG]

p.177 of v3.2 give the C starport "Shipyard (small craft)"

And the E port is listed as having unrefined fuel and frontier quality. The D port adds some repair and improves quality. So it seems they've upped the quality of the lesser ports.

That's going to screw a lot of things up (even Marc's said that E's been the default for "unexplored world").

Either way, I'm ignoring MGT's starport definitions in favour of Book 6's.

 

[AKAramis]

p.177 of v3.2 give the C starport "Shipyard (small craft)"

And the E port is listed as having unrefined fuel and frontier quality. The D port adds some repair and improves quality. So it seems they've upped the quality of the lesser ports.

That's going to screw a lot of things up (even Marc's said that E's been the default for "unexplored world").

Either way, I'm ignoring MGT's starport definitions in favour of Book 6's.

Interesting, since X is the default for no port at all.... (See CT, MT, TNE...)

 

[AKAramis]

The C port minimum is Fuel and a yard which can build small craft and repair spacecraft.

The shipyard at a type C is news to me. Book 6 says it's "routine quality with unrefined fuel, some repair facilities". That says "refuelling station plus mechanics, workshop and tools" - a small shipyard makes it a hell of a lot bigger (and ups the minimum TL to 7).

None of them canonically defined sizes of the port.

I know. Which is why I'm doing it now.

No, only to 5 or 6... since the small craft in question might just be Mercury Capsules... or equivalent. KSC would have been a C port back in the early 1960's... refined fuel available, but can only build small craft (and the launch craft to get them off world)...

When you have Book-2 style drop-in components, you don't need the tech to build the components, just the tech to install said components, and a supply of said components.

In the case of a shipyard, the minimum would be the welding techniques to build the hull, and fabricate the ducting, plumbing, and network wiring. (And cat 5 wiring is essentially the same as multi-line telephone wire from the 1960's... and probably is good enough for most starship data applications, too...)

Handling cryogenics is late TL5 or early TL6...

 

[Deniable]

That's going to screw a lot of things up (even Marc's said that E's been the default for "unexplored world").

Either way, I'm ignoring MGT's starport definitions in favour of Book 6's.

Interesting, since X is the default for no port at all.... (See CT, MT, TNE...)

I've seen discussion over the years that X is 'special.' It can also mean "You don't see a starport here." for things like Red Zones. E seems to have picked up the default no starport in some versions. The Mongoose crew may not have noticed this and taken a previous version at face value.

 

[EDG]

I've seen discussion over the years that X is 'special.' It can also mean "You don't see a starport here." for things like Red Zones. E seems to have picked up the default no starport in some versions. The Mongoose crew may not have noticed this and taken a previous version at face value.

My assumption is that E is basically "nothing here, but no landing restrictions". It's basically a cleared patch of ground, possibly with a beacon. If nobody's visited the planet before, then it's whatever flat land you can land on.

X should IMO mean "attempt no landing here" - it's deliberate interdiction (i.e. red zone). So if I'm following my own assumptions, all of the uninhabited worlds should really have starport E, not starport X. X should only be assigned by the ref, IMO - it shouldn't be a random result at all.

I know, people will say that doing this removes a potentially interesting random world and there should be a random chance for it, but I really think GMs should be smart enough to figure out their own interdicted worlds, and don't need them handed to them on a plate every time by the dice.

Hm... I guess I should really clear that up in the worldgen though.

 

[AKAramis]

I've seen discussion over the years that X is 'special.' It can also mean "You don't see a starport here." for things like Red Zones. E seems to have picked up the default no starport in some versions. The Mongoose crew may not have noticed this and taken a previous version at face value.

My assumption is that E is basically "nothing here, but no landing restrictions". It's basically a cleared patch of ground, possibly with a beacon. If nobody's visited the planet before, then it's whatever flat land you can land on.

X should IMO mean "attempt no landing here" - it's deliberate interdiction (i.e. red zone). So if I'm following my own assumptions, all of the uninhabited worlds should really have starport E, not starport X. X should only be assigned by the ref, IMO - it shouldn't be a random result at all.

I know, people will say that doing this removes a potentially interesting random world and there should be a random chance for it, but I really think GMs should be smart enough to figure out their own interdicted worlds, and don't need them handed to them on a plate every time by the dice.

Hm... I guess I should really clear that up in the worldgen though.

This is one of those cases where I say we should stick with the older definitions
A: Shipyard
B: Minor Shipyard
C: Minor Repair
D: Fueling station
E: no-fuel port (Kind of like Iliamna Airport)
X: no designated port.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

But, if you put the E class starport by a river or the ocean, you have unrefiend fuel...

And, if I was going to be making the first landing on a new planet, I would do it near a source of fuel...

A beacon next to an ice cave works as an E class starport AND has unrefined fuel available. In fact, in some ways it makes more sense than the old definition.

Starport X means that no one has picked a place to land so no guarentees about the stability of soil next to that river...