Two Weapon Defense

[AZZA]

All this talk of two weapon attacks got me looking at the Two weapon defense feat. Now I Understand the benefit as written but am completely confused with the Special. It reads "Two Weapoon Defense can also apply to shields. If you are using a shield to make shield attacks rather than parrying"....
How does that work :? Isn't the hole point not to attack with the second weapon but to parry? So why would you choose not to use the parry bonus from the shield but attack, only to forgo that attack to gain a parry bonus.
:? :?
So does that mean if I've got a large shield and sword that if I choose to use the shield to shield bash as a 2nd attack, rather than for parry, but forgo this extra attack I get +3(1 less than normal) parry defense? Add to this that you would be wielding 2 one handed weapons so my sword attack would be at -4..
If I forgo the bash from a buckler I get +2 parry defense....The same as if I'd used the buckler to defend with normally..... :?
Isn't this a bit wierd?
This is a feat that Borders get at 2nd level and the borderer in my campaign has decided to use a battleaxe and buckler as his weapons. He hasn't realised the wierdness of this feat yet but will soon I'm sure!!

Aaron.

 

[Turim]

We meet again . You only give up one attack at your highest bonus, so if you have Improved Two-Weapon Combat, you can give up the first shield bash (or weapon attack), get the parry bonus, and attack up to three times (four if you gave up a weapon attack) with the shield. Note that even if you use your shield to bash you still seem to get the full shield bonus to dodge against ranged attacks.

 

[SableWyvern]

I think this got brought up a while ago.

Basically, this makes the sword and border effectively a sub-set of the two-weapon fighter. Which, apart from the helping continue the growth of high-level iterative attacks (ie, everyone getting six or eight attacks will really slow things down, I'm thinking), is something I consider a good and proper thing.

 

[AZZA]

I get it now. Thanks guys. Seems like a feat thats only useful for Borderer who get improved two weapon fighting for free. Don't think much of that but at least I understand.

Aaron.

 

[SableWyvern]

Hmmm...

I would think it is equally valuable to anyone who decides to take improved two weapon fighting as a normal feat and, further, encourages sword and boarders to take improved two weapon fighting.

 

[AZZA]

Hmmm...

I would think it is equally valuable to anyone who decides to take improved two weapon fighting as a normal feat and, further, encourages sword and boarders to take improved two weapon fighting.

You think? I can't see it being particularly useful for a a sword and boarder before he gets a second attack with his off hand and even then only if using a buckler. Thinking about it, even then it's not much use. With any shield larger than a buckler you are probably going to be up for big penalties using two 1-h weapons. The one attack you forgo will then give you +3 parry, lower than normal for a large shield. Yes?
Ok with the buckler at least you've got no penalties and you forgo one attack and get normal parry bonus for the buckler
Compare both with the same character not taking two weapon defence but improved unarmed instead.
Using the larger shield, or the buckerl he gets the full defense bonus, no penalty to attack, and no need to forgo an attack. He does D4 not D6.
So how is it good for shield users?

Now I'm thinking that if the shield guy decides to forgo his attack he gets to add +1 Parry defence per attack he forgoes. This is as long as he makes no off hand weapon attacks at all with any weapon.
So the second level border using a buckler he forgoes any off hand attacks would gain +3 parry defence from his buckler. The same character when he gets improved two weapon fighting now having 2 off hand attacks could forgo both to get a further +2 on his defence. I think I would allow a character to do this with the larger shields aswell without imposing an attack penalty on the character.

Is that too good? I want to make sword and shield more viable for characters and not encourage everyone to take improved unarmed. It basically works out at +1 Parry per feat taken and only when using a shield. So the bonus isn't quite as good as the straight parry feat but can be very helpful.
Sorry, bit long
Aaron

 

[SableWyvern]

Yeah, I suppose it depends on your take on the unarmed off-hand attack rules. Since I'm only allowing a maximum of one unarmed off-hand attack in conjunction with a two-hander or sword and board, two weapon defence becomes a more attractive option, which is the perspective I was looking at it from.

I like your ruling, mainly because it encourages characters not to focus on iterative unarmed attacks with the off-hand. I haven't examined the numbers closely, but they don't seem too generous at a glance.

 

[Sutek]

With any shield larger than a buckler you are probably going to be up for big penalties using two 1-h weapons. The one attack you forgo will then give you +3 parry, lower than normal for a large shield. Yes?

Erm...yes.

That's because shields are weapons. They're...uh...shields. You either use it to simple put in the way and block blows or you don't. Bucklers are designed to be light and mobile but no offer great over-all protection because they are small. But, they are light and this means that they are mobile which further means you can swing them around a bit more, thus being able to have a slightly improved DV if using TWD with one. However, the point is that it's two weapon defense and you get DV bonuses even without a shield. I mean, it's all good...

:wink:

 

[AZZA]

With any shield larger than a buckler you are probably going to be up for big penalties using two 1-h weapons. The one attack you forgo will then give you +3 parry, lower than normal for a large shield. Yes?

Erm...yes.

That's because shields are weapons. They're...uh...shields. You either use it to simple put in the way and block blows or you don't. Bucklers are designed to be light and mobile but no offer great over-all protection because they are small. But, they are light and this means that they are mobile which further means you can swing them around a bit more, thus being able to have a slightly improved DV if using TWD with one. However, the point is that it's two weapon defense and you get DV bonuses even without a shield. I mean, it's all good...

:wink:

Yeah..Thanks for bringing "the point" to my attention. Funny, don't you think, how easy it is come across so patronisingly in a forum. :wink:
Aaron.