True (Weapon)

[Itto]

The Divine Spell True (Weapon) now seems a little out of kilter. There are two reasons why I think this. The first is that Divine being more readily available and (re)useable I can see Humaktis running around with Great Swords with it being cast on it for a lot of combat situations. I had this situation while running Blood of Orlanth. I really like Divine magic being more usable to the average initiate, I remember in times gone by when a player would be desperate to save up his Rune Magic (now divine) points in order to qualify to become a Rune Priest only to get into a situation where they died due to having to be so miserly with Rune Magic. But an unbalanced spell can lead to problems in play.

The second is to do with how specials and criticals have changed in MRQ2. These have in some respects toned down as the can happen more often under the new Combat Manoeuvres rules. I think that True (Weapon) should also be rained in bit to reflect this (and it really is unbalancing have a PC running round doing 2D8*2 + other modifiers damage, but who can blame a player going for that option (looking at you Carl).)

I think that maybe the spell should either maximise one dice roll, like the Maximise Damage Combat Manoeuvre or the damage is rolled twice and the best is picked, sort of like the Impale. Or even depending on the nature of the weapon (thrusting, cutting, bludgeon) is should do Impale or Bleed or Stun Location Combat Manoeuvres automatically.

Just my thought as it really is distracting for players to have another that can chop down/thru anything nearly all the time while they can’t. I know as a GM I can do the same back, but that would lead to very short nuclear combats and not very dramatic after a while.

 

[Rurik]

Well as I recall Humakti with Greatswords were always extremely badass.

The problem may well be Hero Points - an out of game world meta system for preserving character lives. In classic RQ the primary ways of 'surviving' a fatal blow were Divine Intervention or Ressurection - both of which were denied Humakti characters. That plus their unwillingness to back down or try to avoid death meant that the Humakti Character burned brightly but breifly. Yeah they could run around and chop things apart with ease, but they always lived short lives in my experience.

Humakti Characters in MRQ have no limts on using Hero Points like they do DI or Ressurection, so they can save their asses unlike in previous editions. That makes them viable as long term characters, constantly unbalancing the game as opposed to fun, short lived interludes.

 

[Denalor]

As an initiate you do need a shrine to regain a used divine spell. Even an acolyte must return to a shrine, but, of course, only when he failed to regain the spell on the next day.
Surely, you’re not playing BoO with characters above the ranks of acolytes ?

In RQ Deluxe a shrine has minimum 5 initiates assigned to it and thus 100 lay members (now called common members). Even though a pious member/initiate automatically counts as a common member of all allied cults, you still might be somewhat hard pressed to find a Humakt shrine in all the settlements in Blood of Orlanth.
If I remember correctly, the villages along the Solthi river weren’t too big, so even if you (correctly) assume that all villagers are initiates and thus all are common members of Humakt (actually perhaps only the not-draconized villages and in truth I’d need to re-check CoGI whether the Humakt cult is considered an allied cult of the cults obviously encountered along the Solthi river… I’m sorry to admit that I’m still not too familiar with the cults of the Orlanthi), surely you can adjust the passage of time/flow of the campaign in a way as to not have your characters regaining their divine spells every day ?

All of this, however, doesn’t really contribute to your suggestions in making this spell less deadly.
Sorry.

Given that the sorcerous spell in conjunction with a great sword (you need to have Sorcery (Grimoire) skill of at least 71% to be able to cast it though) already does maximum damage (i.e always 16, instead of the average of 4d8, which his 18 ) and could actually be cast on quite a lot of swords and given that divine magic is supposed to be the most powerful I do not agree that True (Weapon) is too powerful, thus I don’t see the need for a modification.

 

[andyl]

As has been said for less advanced characters in the cult it isn't much of a problem unless they are scuttling back and forth to shrines.

Also if players start to abuse things then I would insist on strong adherence to any geases/compulsions the local Humakti temple imposes.

 

[Deleriad]

I think it's probably a matter of play style preferences. I'm right into the last 2-3 sessions of Blood of Orlanth at the moment and the characters do have RQII Divine Magic but have had no time to get to shrines to regain magic. Plus none of them have huge Pact skills so they could easily spend a week praying to no effect while the world goes up in flames around them. This means that the Humakti and Storm Bull are now out of divine magic while the god-speaker (only an initiate) as just managed to get one of his Lightning Strikes and his sylph back. Mind you they are currently "guests" on-board the Hawk while Erid's preparing a nice meal for Cadamil so I've a feeling they're about to run out of their remaining divine spells.

I do tend to agree with Truesword but purely for flavour. I'm tempted to say it adds 1 extra weapon damage die (e.g. a Greatsword would so 3D8 damage, a longsword 2D8). The Humakti initiate, if he survives, is now desperate to find proof that there is such thing as an acolyte of Humakt so that he can learn extension. He's living for the day that he can cast Truesword and leave it there forever...

 

[Itto]

Blood of Orlanth is a nicely paced game, not a dungeon crawl. So fights are sporadic so an Initiate with several points of Divine at the start of the Campaign could get through a number of sections before needing to refuel. There were none of the PCs where above Initiate level and there was a fair amount of Divine magic used, which is a good thing and I'm all for, but does lead to the second point I was making.

If a player can, he will, even more so if its within the rules, and he should. As a GM there are things I could do to counter, like dispel magic, going to disarm and using the spell as well, but I don't want players feeling like I'm purposely employing tactics against them. True Weapon is a powerful spell, but perhaps has not been balanced like other things have. Look at the long bow, that has come down from 2D8 (in MRQ) to 1D8 (in MRQ2). Sever Spirit and Resurrection have had cult level limits placed on them for balance.

True Weapon with most weapons is not a really big issue, having a regular access to Divine isn’t an issue ,but when the weapon damage has a high starting point it becomes one. Which is why I was putting forward the ideas I have to balance out that spell.

 

[Rurik]

Perhaps then a fixed damage modifier, such as +1d8 or +1d10 would be a good rule to balance it. It would then be very effective when cast on even a dagger for example.

Just a thought for those so inclined to houserule it.

Also dismiss magic has been a staple of RQ since the dawn of, well, RQ itself. I have used it against characters and expect it's use against me. It is a given that in a battle with mid to high level spell casting on both sides some Dispelling is going to happen, and the most powerful spells are going to be targeted. Players shouldn't feel picked on if one of them casts a nasty spell and it gets targeted with some form of counterspell any more than they should be offended that NPC's parry the greatsword instead of the dagger. In Classic RQ powerful spellcasters could become quite degenerate if left unchecked.

I have seen players employ some tricky tactics such as holding out on their most powerful spells in hopes the enemy uses up their countermagic on lesser effects, and even once a character who used to cast defensive magic on himself and then pretend to be casting a really long (and hence powerful) sorcery spell to draw enemy fire and magic from the rest of the party.

Though it may be an adjustment for players coming from other game systems. I'm not saying give every NPC powerful dispell/countermagic spells, but any big baddie is likely to have them and use them - they probably wouldn't have survived to big baddie status without doing so!

 

[Deleriad]

Re Dispel Magic, there is probably a culture shock for anyone whose first edition of RQ was MRQ1. Magic is pretty non-existent in most MRQ1 publications and Blood of Orlanth is an example of that. Most players who have grown up with MRQI probably won't expect Dispel Magic and may feel as though you're actively gunning for them.

But also, Dispel Magic effects are going to be different from older RQ. For example, even the smallest common magic countermagic will shock careless sorcerers because their spells have a default Magnitude of 1. On the other hand, once someone gets up to around 40% in Pact, there's not a lot out there that can bring your divine magic down other than someone with a bigger pact. The dynamic is very different.

 

[Rurik]

My experience is based solely on Chaosium/AH RQ as after over two months of waiting for my FLGS to get me MRQ2 I just cancelled my order and went Amazon. So I'll have to see how MRQ2 Plays out, but it sounds much more in the spirit of the previous editions.

That being said, I think my point that Players and the GM should come to accept dispelling is not 'picking on' the healthier the game will be.

Already Itto is feeling that one spell is too powerful, yet afraid to Dispel it for want of not offending the player. One approach is to house rule the spell, and that is reasonable enough. But what happens when a sorcerer learns to do X, or the Shaman figures out Y, both of which also 'unbalance' the game. In the past the checks and balances to these so called 'abuses' have included counter magic.

There was once here (and on the BRP board) some rather heated discussions on AH RQ3 Sorcery being broken. Some said it was too powerful and others never had a problem. I never changed the rules and yes, sorcerers could become VERY powerful (but so could the other magic types). I spent a lot of GM time coming up with foes and tactics to keep the game challenging, and dispelling magic was a big part of this, but the games remained enjoyable.

So I guess my point is that learning the 'RQ' style of play, where foes often fight as intelligently as the players and do things like try to dispel powerful affects, can in the end lead to everyone enjoying the game, rather than a player feeling picked on or a GM feeling one player is sucking the fun out of the game for everyone else.

Just wait till the Humakti gains Sever Spirit...

(Humakt has always been a nasty cult. Come to think of it Humakti were one of the foils I'd come up with for overly ambitious sorcerers...)

 

[jarulf]

True Sword with Extension would be nice too.
Still subject to pesky dispelling efforts by unsporting opponents though.

 

[Stormwalker]

I think that True (Weapon) should also be rained in bit to reflect this (and it really is unbalancing have a PC running round doing 2D8*2 + other modifiers damage, but who can blame a player going for that option (looking at you Carl).)

I'm sorry are you saying my character is unbalanced eh eh?

 

[RosenMcStern]

The problem with Truesword begins at Acolyte rank, as the acolyte can use Extension to make it permanent. And if your Humakti has a high Pact, Dispel Magic is useless, as it is limited in Magnitude. You need Neutralize or Dismiss to cancel the Truesword.

However, the spell is not unbalanced. The problem is that no matter how much damage you do, if you are parried the damage is nullified.

Also, once you reach Acolyte Rank in the Humakt cult, the real problem is not Truesword, whose effect does not increase with Pact. It is permanent Shield that is imbalancing

 

[Mongoose Pete]

The problem with Truesword begins at Acolyte rank, as the acolyte can use Extension to make it permanent. And if your Humakti has a high Pact, Dispel Magic is useless, as it is limited in Magnitude. You need Neutralize or Dismiss to cancel the Truesword.

Whether it can be neutralised or not depends on the skill of the opposition, which is in turn up to the GM to decide. It is not a flaw to say an equal of higher level of pact or sorcery is required.

However, the spell is not unbalanced. The problem is that no matter how much damage you do, if you are parried the damage is nullified.

And the problem with this is?

Also, once you reach Acolyte Rank in the Humakt cult, the real problem is not Truesword, whose effect does not increase with Pact. It is permanent Shield that is imbalancing

If you really want to walk about tying up your magical versatility, by extending all your combat spells then go for it. But your enemies will clearly see what magic you have up and can plan their tactics accordingly. :wink:

In addition, most folks will be rather put out if someone comes into their village/city with combat magic up and running. Doesn't do much for mutual trust and can be seen as outright threatening, even by allies.

For example, I don't care how much I know you, I'm not going to invite you into my home whilst you wear a flak jacket, and shoulder a gun with the ammo clip loaded and the safety off. Your game setting may vary of course.

 

[Itto]

The main point I was trying to make was that the rules and spells have been tidied up, they are clear, clever, neat, balanced and I’m mightily impressed (and relieved). I just seemed to me that True (Weapon) was less neat and a bit blunt. But the writers did have allot of work to do so it would be churlish to expect everything to be buffed up and polished, but most of it seems to have been .

There are balances which could hold the mighty Great Sword with True Sword in check, one being opponents with a shield (or an off hand weapon) may well have more Combat Actions (them getting +1 CA), another that decent shields and equally mighty weapons will block the entirety of the damage on a successful block, which would not have been the case in previous systems.

It could well be that I’m again carrying the mental baggage of previous incarnations, but I do fear that EWF Wyverns and there monstrous kin will be less challenging for great sword wielding Humaktis.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Of course, after the sorcerer has played Wrack on him for a few rounds... he just might wish he had instead gone for the Dismiss magic spell instead.

 

[RosenMcStern]

However, the spell is not unbalanced. The problem is that no matter how much damage you do, if you are parried the damage is nullified.

And the problem with this is?

With "problem" I meant "problem for the poor GM to put up a challenging opposition". But it is no real problem with this. Some game balance fanatics do not like the fact that Humakti are strong, and I was just pointing out that there are fare better ways to make your Acolyte dangerous with the new divine magic. With combat maneuvers, a bonus to skill is always more effective than a bonus to damage. And Truesword affects only damage.

 

[Cassius]

tbh one of the things I have always loved about Runequest and I hope continues is the willingness of the developers to say "screw balance this is how it would be"

I always liked how in past editions the rules have not been scared about making certain playable races hard in combat (e.g iron dwarves) because of the fact they would be and certain abilities very powerful because it makes sense.

Of course balance should not be thrown to the wind entirely but keep in mind this is not D&D and not everyone is created equal

 

[kurgan84]

tbh one of the things I have always loved about Runequest and I hope continues is the willingness of the developers to say "screw balance this is how it would be"

I always liked how in past editions the rules have not been scared about making certain playable races hard in combat (e.g iron dwarves) because of the fact they would be and certain abilities very powerful because it makes sense.

Of course balance should not be thrown to the wind entirely but keep in mind this is not D&D and not everyone is created equal

I'm totaly agree with that! :wink:

 

[sdavies2720]

...Of course balance should not be thrown to the wind entirely but keep in mind this is not D&D and not everyone is created equal

In the early days of RPG I kept thinking, "I wish someone would spend some time trying to balance all these characters, so every character is different but no player feels like they are just there to fill a seat."

Once I started to see where that ends up -- the only way for everything to be totally balanced is for everything to be mostly the same -- I've appreciated even more the subtle balance that RQ provides.

I don't want everyone balanced all the time. I want regular opportunities for each characer to be the power character, based on what is happening.

Steve

 

[kintire]

Of course balance should not be thrown to the wind entirely but keep in mind this is not D&D and not everyone is created equal

Everyone should be created equal in the sense that everyone should have the same ability to contribute to the group. That doesn't mean that they should all be as good at everything as everyone else, but there should be something they can do best.

That said, I'm not convinced that Truesword is unbalanced. Divine Magic is not always availiable due to the shrine requirement, and all but the most powerful will run out of spells before a sorcerer runs out of MPs. As a counter, the spells are more powerful. True Sword SHOULD be better than the corresponding spells in the other systems.