troubled times in Peloria

[Arlaten]

Troubled Times in Peloria

Looking further into a Peloria campaign I found this excellent timeline by Peter Metcalfe (with additions from Nick Brooke) that highlights prominent events in Peloria before and after the general time setting of GtSA. The events described below may effect local politics, provide mercenary opportunities, and opportunities for political roleplaying in Peloria during the Second Age.

BoDR:C = Book of Drastic Resolutions (not sure what the C stands for)
FS = The Fortunate Succession (Pelorian history)
GM = Griffin Mountain
KoS = King of Sartar (myths/history of Dragon Pass)
Nick Brooke – excerpts taken from a timeline on the Etyries.com website

889 ST Internal dissent within the EWF as the Third Council, led by Isangdrang Dragonspeaker, demand to be worshipped as Gods [GM, KoS]. Comment Isangdrang Dragonspeaker is dated to this event because he is stated in KoS as having 'enslaved the people'. His reported grandson, Usdaros the Impatient, began a civil war. This would occur around 920 which fits the known problems affecting the EWF at that time - PHM.

890 ST Elves of the Elder Wilds withdraw from the EWF. They send a large raiding force into the EWF which escapes unharmed [GM].

900 ST The Ash Flat sumps in Dorastor [BoDR:C]

905 YS A Carmanian Army led by Survilstor marches through Brolia to attack the Dragons at the battle of Three Dragons Fall in Anadikki. He then establishes a dynasty there [FS].

909 Carmanians advance through Darjiin, beat Dragon Army at Ulifilas. Most of Darjiin revolts to join Carmanians; oppressed by EWF, no aid. (Nick Brooke)

910 Carmanians march against Raibanth, aided by Yuthuppan army. "Storm of Falling Dragons" battle. Dara Happa revolts under Karvanyar. (Nick Brooke)

913 Raibanth liberated. Carmanians and Dara Happans part company. Dara Happa defeated next year by EWF attempting to relieve Alkoth. Carmanians conquer all Darjiin. (Nick Brooke)

915 EWF repulsed from Dara Happa. "carmanian Peace" for 35 years. Carmanian Expedition to Eastpoint. Dara Happans fight Nomads in north, advancing against EWF in south. (Nick Brooke)

921 YS Karvanyar liberates Sylila and Northern Vanch from the EWF [FS].

923 ST Southern Vanch is liberated from the EWF although some Cities are still occupied [FS].

925 YS Karvanyar liberates Saird completing the expulsion of the EWF from Dara Happa. He then turns his army from the EWF to the North to fight against the Horse Nomads. Hostilities are still in force against the EWF [FS].

940 Dara Happan Emperor Sarenesh marries Carmanian heiress. (Nick Brooke)

947 YS The EWF send an army against Dara Happa and regains Vanch and Sylila [FS].

955 ST A Carmanian army kills Dragons at old Jillaro and frees Saird from the EWF

960 Three Brothers Divide The World: Emperor of Dara Happa, Padishah of Carmania and High King of Saird. (Nick Brooke)

It looks as if we are looking at a situation very similar to the formation of the Assyrian Empire, where the Carmanians emerge from their homes in the hills in Northwest Peloria and conquer all of Peloria, driving out the EWF.

In order to harness the fertile lands of the river deltas, the Carmanians will have well-formed temple communities, where a class of priest/bureaucrats will control the political and economic life of a city in the name of the Karmanoi gods. Priests, scribes, and other officials will be needed to design and oversee vast engineering works (canals, dikes) requiring hundreds of workers (EWF barbarian slaves?) and to control the division of land, water, and crops.

The social classes of Mesopotamian society seems to be mirrored through the caste system of the Carmanians. Laws will regulate offences against propery, ownership and care of land and houses, artisans and trade, women, marriage, family property, inheritance, assault and injury, and ownership and sale of slaves. People will not be equal under the Carmanian law. It will be a far more serious crime to hurt a noble or a priest than a slave or a poor person.

As time goes on, the ‘barbarian lands’ of Peloria will become more and more civilized, first yielding city states, developing solid trade routes and practices, etc. It sounds like a really rich campaign setting.

Where do the God-Learners fit in?

How much of Peloria is already civilized (governed by nation state rather than clan heads) in 908?

Are the concepts of Satrapies already in existence, or do the Carmanians introduce the concept?

 

[soltakss]

BoDR:C = Book of Drastic Resolutions (not sure what the C stands for)

Chaos. As opposed to the one on Darkness or Prax.

 

[Alakoring]

The social classes of Mesopotamian society seems to be mirrored through the caste system of the Carmanians.

FWIW, the Carmanian caste system is a truncated version of the Malkioni system -- Lords, Wizards, and Knights, but no Farmers.

Where do the God-Learners fit in?

The Carmanians fled their influence, and it's geographically difficult for the God Learners to get to Peloria. (I'm sure individuals do, but the Empire has no influence.)

How much of Peloria is already civilized (governed by nation state rather than clan heads) in 908?

Most of it. Dara Happa has been civilized forever.

Are the concepts of Satrapies already in existence, or do the Carmanians introduce the concept?

I think that's totally Lunar.

 

[Voriof]

The social classes of Mesopotamian society seems to be mirrored through the caste system of the Carmanians.

FWIW, the Carmanian caste system is a truncated version of the Malkioni system -- Lords, Wizards, and Knights, but no Farmers.

The farmer caste/cult was removed from Cults of Glorantha. And the Caste system is actually quite different from that practiced by their Malkioni ancestors.

They've gone very thestic since their departure from what will become Loksalm and only those who are spiritually pure are allowed to use the possibly corrupt and dangerous sorcery magic. And good gravy, do they hate the God Learners!

I'm not sure about the Satrapies. They may have introduced them when they were overlords over a conquored people. When they take over the Dara Happan Empire in a few centuries, they may introduce the concept to the proto-Lunars. The concept does seem rather Carmanian in nature - at least to me.

Jeff

 

[Arlaten]

Further web browsing produced this information about The Carmanian Culture which might be handy for GMs wishing to design a SA campaign based out of Peloria.

Most of this information was found at Etyries.com.

The son of Syranthir (a character like Oddyseus) and Charmain is Carmanos, called the first Shah of Carmania. His origin is obscure: he is said to have been brought up in a magical lake. His title is the "Lawbringer," and he is regarded as rightful leader from his birth, and fights a war against the Empire of Gloom, liberating seven cities and slaying its last ruler.

(The term Shah is often used in conjunction with satrapies in history, in the same way that the term Duke is used in conjunction with Duchies. The satrap was the head of the administration of his province, and found himself surrounded by an all-but-royal court; he collected the taxes, controlled the local officials and the subject tribes and cities, and was the supreme judge of the province before whose "chair" (Nehemiah 3:7) every civil and criminal case could be brought. He was responsible for the safety of the roads (cf. Xenophon), and had to put down brigands and rebels. -Arlaten's note)

After Carmanos rules Surandar "Warleader," remembered as founder of many Carmanian military institutions. He destroys the crumbling Empire of Gloom, then takes over his former allies' lands as well, establishing the heartland of Carmania in the Oronin Valley. Independent Pelandan History ceases with this betrayal: the once-free cities are now occupied by Carmanian governors and troops.

Surandar's son is Carshandar "Peacemaker," famously remembered for the peace, fertility and prosperity of his reign. He had many wives and countless children, making alliances with the remains of the Spolite Empire, the Sweet Sea Confederation, the Dara Happan Empire, and the highest Priestess of all Pelanda. He builds the first palace of Carmania; trade and art flourish.

There follows a half-century (c.847-900 S.T.) of dualistic religious schism and civil war between two branches of the royal house. Tradition blames this on the disparate origins of Carshandar's wives. The Dark Shahs attack Dara Happa, and worship brute trollish gods of Night and Winter. They use atrocities and terror-tactics to intimidate their foes. The Light Shahs are allies of Dara Happa and fight with them against Darjiin: they epitomise the bone-headed "Death or Glory" attitudes of chivalrous idealism. Modern Carmanians think each is as bad as the other: neither side showed any balance or moderation. In the end, a consensus is reached: Light is better than Dark, but neither is Evil per se.

In the early tenth century, the Carmanians confront the EWF. They discover how to slay the great Dragons, then liberate Dara Happa from the rule of the Golden Dragon. Secure in Peloria through their alliance with Dara Happa, they can even mount an expedition to Loskalm, seeking to avenge the wrongs done to Syranthir three centuries before. The Lion Shahs of this age are bold warriors, aligned to the Light.

The daughter of the Shah seduces the Emperor of Dara Happa (the famous Song of Sarenesh commemorates this courtship), and their sons are the Three Brothers Who Divided The World: the Dara Happan Emperor, the Padishah of Carmania, and the High King of Saird. For almost a century, until after the destruction of the EWF in 1042, these three nations are close allies which combine their efforts against the Draconic foes: these are the Three Generations of Peace. The Carmanians adopt many Dara Happan and Theyalan concepts, including that of the Lightbringers' Quest (which has previously been peripheral to their religion, but now takes centre stage).

After the Dragons withdraw, revolts break out over all Peloria. The Three Generations of War see relations between Carmania and Dara Happa worsen into conflicts, which escalate into the great campaign against Alkoth led by Shah Haran the Great. The story of this war is told in the Alkothiad, another Pelandan epic; it ends when the two armies, of Alkoth and Carmania, join forces to invade their ancient enemies in Dragon Pass.
The Dragonkill War leaves Carmania (and all Peloria) severely depleted; Haran's feeble heir is brutally usurped by a barbarian ally who calls himself Shahtavar, the Bull Shah. He and his followers take over the Empire and restore its lost territories to it; his sons assault Dara Happa, and his grandson, Cartavar the Conqueror, captures Yuthuppa and Raibanth.

The Bull Shahs establish a crude opposition between (dark) Bulls and (bright) Lions, which revitalises Carmanian religion at the cost of all its theological subtlety; they bring new vigour to the armies while foes still present themselves, but in victory they lapse into excesses of cruelty and decadence. Their Carmanian Empire is already fragmenting at the edges when the Seven Mothers bring the Red Goddess forth in Rinliddi to destroy it. And the rest, as they say, is History.

Most of the following is taken from http://web.archive.org/web/20010726154533/www.ioxy.com/fabworlds/Carmania/carm-culture.html

I modified it slightly for the Second Age.

Carmanian Culture

Languages
Carmanian

Subsistence Pattern
Limited plantation-style agricultural economy in the lowlands, with peasantry tending family farms in the hillier regions. The major crops are potatoes, rye, and wheat, and fallow fields are planted with clover and hay.

Control Systems
Chiefdom, with an assembly of equals. In practice the lord will summon all the adult men in his domain to a council. Before voting upon a measure the lord will ask for arguments pro and con. He may appoint someone to argue for either or both sides, or may let people speak freely. Normally the lord will refrain from arguing either for or against the measure, and will allow others to argue for him. At the end of the debate the vote will be carried or rejected by a show of hands.

Also:
"Carmania is organized along feudal lines, with vassals bound by oaths of fealty. Fiefs are non-hereditary, but particularly loyal long-term vassals are sometimes rewarded by being absorbed into his lords household. A web of feudal connections is referred to as a House, with Great Houses controlling the satrapies. Carmanian political life is therefore marked by the constant struggle for power and autonomy between the Satraps and their vassal houses." - Glorantha: Introduction to the Hero Wars by Greg Stafford and Peter Metcalfe

Economics
Commercial Market Economy

Economic Growth
The Carmanian economy is undergoing quite a bit of growth as it sweeps through Dara Happa and claims its cities. Although at war, the need for weapons, food, (possibly road construction for heavy artillery) build a strong economy.

Mines
The mines of the Brass Mountains are rich, producing vast quantities of precious stones, crystals, and brass and other valuable metals.
Exports and Imports

The Carmanian economy exports the products of mining, fishing, and foresting and imports luxury goods from many lands.

Social Systems

Statuses and Roles
Canny, pragmatic tyrants, cruel when disappointed and generous when well-served, are a popular type, and Shah Carmanos the First is the role-model. Tireless warriors are another popular type, with Yanafal Tarnils being the role-model. Many nobles are also wealthy merchants, and Etyries is their role-model. The role-models for philosophers and wizards are Irripi Ontor and Wise Herantera Valind's Daughter.

Stratification
The Carmanians have a caste structure with Hazars (Knights), Viziri (Wizards), and Carmanoi (Nobles). No serfs come from the Carmanian upper classes but rather from the Pelandan natives. There is almost no social mixing between the serf class and the upper classes, but movement between classes is common within the upper classes, so that a high-caste family would contain Hazars, Viziri, and Carmanoi. One son in a high-caste family might be chosen to train as a Hazar, another might become a Vizir, and a third could be picked as a Carmanos. The Pelorian serfs do most of the actual farming, with the remainder performed by the slave labor.

Kinship Systems
Marriage
Polygamous marriage, with a man's preferred first wife being his father's sister's daughter, and lesser wives (carmanian concubines) selected to cement social bonds with other families of the same caste. The haram may also include Pelorian women as concubines. Note this leaves many hazars and viziri without possibility of marriage, and very willing to sacrifice themselves for their house, or for the possibility of an arranged marriage.
Residence
Patrilocal. A newly married couple will move into the husband's father's home, and when the time comes move into its own home nearby.
Inheritance
First sons of the first wife typically inherit the noble title, though some nobles will choose on the basis of ability rather than birth order. Adoptees are treated as if they were children of lesser wives or concubines.

Belief Systems
Henotheism
Henotheistic, with the Invisible God remote but presiding over all, True gods of both Light and Darkness (sometimes swaying heavily one way or the other), with several oddities thrown in (the pseudo-Mithraic cults of Basmol and Bisos; local gods of Syanor and Pelanda; the divine Carmanos, the First Shah, and his even more mysterious mother Charmain). There are a peculiar set of Carmanian Lightbringers, too.

Sorcery
is the Magi's secret, an ancient discipline that brings understanding and power. Shamans, on the other hand, are fools and the servants of fools.

Cultural Personality
A Passionate People
Carmanian personalities are overlaid with a smooth veneer of manners and friendliness, with a strong tradition of hospitality, and a sincere readiness to entertain or carouse at a moment's notice. Fully 35% could best be described as passionate. Another 20% could be described as hotheaded, lustful, intense, ecstatic, tempestuous, excitable, cruel or generous. The remaining 45% fall into every type of personality under the sun and moon.

 

[Arlaten]

Belief Systems
Henotheism
Henotheistic, with the Invisible God remote but presiding over all, True gods of both Light and Darkness (sometimes swaying heavily one way or the other), with several oddities thrown in (the pseudo-Mithraic cults of Basmol and Bisos; local gods of Syanor and Pelanda; the divine Carmanos, the First Shah, and his even more mysterious mother Charmain). There are a peculiar set of Carmanian Lightbringers, too.

I forgot to mention Idovanus. Apparently according to GtSA the Karmanoi 'realized that their sorcery, which came from Malkan, was evil. Under the guidance of their Viziers, they turned to worship Idovanus through other gods.' It's hard for me to wrap my mind around this because I am still steeped in RuneQuest 3, but if you can understand it, that's good. I think a little more text here would have been helpful.

 

[Voriof]

Belief Systems
Henotheism
Henotheistic, with the Invisible God remote but presiding over all, True gods of both Light and Darkness (sometimes swaying heavily one way or the other), with several oddities thrown in (the pseudo-Mithraic cults of Basmol and Bisos; local gods of Syanor and Pelanda; the divine Carmanos, the First Shah, and his even more mysterious mother Charmain). There are a peculiar set of Carmanian Lightbringers, too.

I forgot to mention Idovanus. Apparently according to GtSA the Karmanoi 'realized that their sorcery, which came from Malkan, was evil. Under the guidance of their Viziers, they turned to worship Idovanus through other gods.' It's hard for me to wrap my mind around this because I am still steeped in RuneQuest 3, but if you can understand it, that's good. I think a little more text here would have been helpful.

Very good detail and commentary. I would like to interject a note of caution that some of the information you cite is somewhat older and may have been supplanted by more relevant sources. As mentioned earlier and in other threads, the Carmanian faith, particularly Iovanus, is discussed in CoG1 and 2.

That said, I'd be very interested in seeing a 2nd Age Dara Happa/Carmanian book, especially with the imminent fall of the Dragon Emperor

Jeff

 

[kpmcdona]

Troubled Times in Peloria
[snip] It sounds like a really rich campaign setting.

I agree! My RuneQuest game is set on the border between Carmania and the EWF in Darjiin, and will follow the progress of the war over the next few years. The players seem pleased with the setting so far.

I also have a website devoted to Carmania, although most of it is HeroQuest based:

http://kpmcdona.home.mindspring.com/carmania/

Are the concepts of Satrapies already in existence, or do the Carmanians introduce the concept?

Last I heard, the concept of Satrapies did come from the Carmanians. It won't become commonly used in Dara Happa until much later, though. Probably not until the Third Age.

~Kevin McD

 

[Arlaten]

I also have a website devoted to Carmania, although most of it is HeroQuest based:

http://kpmcdona.home.mindspring.com/carmania/

Very nice site! How did you determine the poplulations? Did you create your own or did you use some kind of program? I am imagining the populations will be quite different in the Second Age. However, you have some very useful information on your site. Nicely detailed IMO.

 

[kpmcdona]

Very nice site!

Thanks!

How did you determine the poplulations?

If I remember correctly (a big if), I got the total population figure from the old RQ3 Players Book. The individual clan populations were derived from Loren Miller's defunct Carmania website. I had to scale them up a bit when it was revealed that 60% of the population of Carmania is Carmanian, which came with the invention of the Carmanian farmer (Romanak) caste.

Did you create your own or did you use some kind of program?

I have a big complicated spreadsheet that tracks population figures. It is so complicated, in fact, that I am really not sure if it actually works! It is good enough for my game, though.

I am imagining the populations will be quite different in the Second Age.

I agree, but am not sure in what way they would be different. It is quite possible that there were more people in Carmania during the SA than in the Third Age. Good arguments could be made either way, really.

~Kevin McD

 

[CarlQ]

BoDR:C = Book of Drastic Resolutions (not sure what the C stands for)

Chaos. As opposed to the one on Darkness or Prax.

Ah, the only BDR I've never been able to get hold of. Darn it. Does anybody have a comprehensive rundown of what's in this publication? I've only heard dribs & drabs....

Carl Q.

 

[Alakoring]

I modified it slightly for the Second Age. ... Tireless warriors are another popular type, with Yanafal Tarnils being the role-model.

While he might be a good model for a Carmanian warrior, he (as a person) doesn't exist until the Third Age.

 

[Alakoring]

Ah, the only BDR I've never been able to get hold of. Darn it. Does anybody have a comprehensive rundown of what's in this publication?

The editor's description is at http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/drastic.html

 

[CarlQ]

Ah, the only BDR I've never been able to get hold of. Darn it. Does anybody have a comprehensive rundown of what's in this publication?

The editor's description is at http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/drastic.html

Thank you very much for that. I must trog through ebay and see if it shows up one day.

Cheers,

Carl Q.

 

[Alakoring]

Two Second Age maps are now available at http://www.glorantha.com/new/fan/maps.html . I scanned one of Greg's large maps, and tried to make sure there were no Lunar influences. I also added details from Wes's great Lunar map, and from the Durnvoking article in Moon Rites. Then I enlarged it to add Anadikking clans.

BTW, assuming the scale is correct (always questionable with one of Greg's maps), and the population numbers in Imperial Lunar Handbook are correct, the population density of the Anadikkings is considerably less than that of Sartarites (but somewhat higher than I had worked out for the Umathing barbarians of Vralos). Which suggested to me that hoe cultivation was part of their lifestyle. Gotta love maps!