Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
That would be the power vacuum aspect.
Ideology would be thinking you're correct, or an excuse to create a hierarchy.
Ideology would be thinking you're correct, or an excuse to create a hierarchy.
Travellers Needed - The Future of Traveller
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
I think the Imperial aristocracy existing in a more competitive framework would lend itself greatly to creating adventure opportunities. Planetary nobles working hard to increase their wealth and power and scheming to gain favor with the subsector duke, subsector dukes embroiled in generational feuds and rivalries with each other, and the sector duke playing them off of each other to keep them too weak to challenge him. Megacorporate entities engaging in all kinds of economic skullduggery to serve the political goals of their owning noble families.
Suddenly noble marriage alliances matter, taxes and other wealth extraction matter, and the nobility matters, instead of being toothless emissaries from an interstellar government that doesn't govern anything outside of the starport.
Suddenly noble marriage alliances matter, taxes and other wealth extraction matter, and the nobility matters, instead of being toothless emissaries from an interstellar government that doesn't govern anything outside of the starport.
It depends on how active you want the Imperium to be. The original conception, at least for the Marches and surrounding areas, was that the Imperium had neither the means nor the inclination to be doing stuff to any significant degree. But they also didn't have jobs for these lesser Nobles. At that time, if you weren't a Duke, you weren't governing anything. You got to sit in the local Moot and whinge at the Dukes, if you felt like it. The entire purpose of lesser noble titles was to reward people who showed loyalty to the Imperium over parochial interests. With counter examples like the Marquis of Aramis.
Fiefs were originally just a financial reward attached to the headpat that a noble title got you. You didn't have any more government power than any other large land owner. Titles below Duke were awarded to artists, scientists, military leaders, explorers, and anyone else who seemed neat and likely to make the Imperium look better.
Of course, mission creep has steadily settled in so now these nobles actually have influence on those worlds and responsibilities and such. Originally all reference to developing fiefs came in the form of "nobles usually like to make themselves richer, so some develop their fiefs carefully, others strip mine it for wealth, etc". And now Counts, instead of having fiefs on several worlds, seem to be mini-Dukes who have less than a subsector. Or something.
Fiefs were originally just a financial reward attached to the headpat that a noble title got you. You didn't have any more government power than any other large land owner. Titles below Duke were awarded to artists, scientists, military leaders, explorers, and anyone else who seemed neat and likely to make the Imperium look better.
Of course, mission creep has steadily settled in so now these nobles actually have influence on those worlds and responsibilities and such. Originally all reference to developing fiefs came in the form of "nobles usually like to make themselves richer, so some develop their fiefs carefully, others strip mine it for wealth, etc". And now Counts, instead of having fiefs on several worlds, seem to be mini-Dukes who have less than a subsector. Or something.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You're cannibalizing the capital, you're living off the interest, or you're expanding the base.
Vormaerin is right the original concept of the imperium is vastly different from how it’s viewed today. I myself Blame to many cooks by that I mean that there’s been lots of lore added to the game by third parties.
The original history of the imperium did a fairly decent job of explaining why the imperium ran things the way they did. The imperium was never really supposed to be a government it was a trade protection organization, the member worlds were really only protected markets which is why the imperium didn’t have anything to do with the local governments. This is why the imperium didn’t control the planets but instead controlled travel between planets. In the early days the imperium only had a handful of laws which were about protecting trade, no slavery, no WMDs, No messing up the planets, no restricting travel, no piracy, no warfare between member worlds, and no messing with the X-boat system later no psionics was added. The imperium didn’t give it nobility any power over local governments outside of dukes and higher representing the planet in the muet. Trade wasn’t as heavy as it is in more current versions of the setting either. I Remember the old LBB book 7 which talked about trade and the different types of trade companies and how the big companies would stop at the class A or occasionally Class B starports from there cargos would transfer to the Subsector/Sector level trade compings which would take the goods from this class A&B worlds to the other class B worlds and C worlds. Really small companies and freetraders would carry goods the rest of the way.
I think one of the big issues and it’s one I hope to see addressed by mongoose is the cosmopolitanism of the Third Imperium. In a lot of cases the travel time is ignored it takes a week to make a jump yet people ignore the effects this has on the setting, Traveller was meant to have the feel of the old sailing ship days not the average day at any major airport. I think the cause of this is how cheap air fares have gotten over the years nobody travels cross country by car so they don’t understand that travelling a week one way can be a major problem.
The original history of the imperium did a fairly decent job of explaining why the imperium ran things the way they did. The imperium was never really supposed to be a government it was a trade protection organization, the member worlds were really only protected markets which is why the imperium didn’t have anything to do with the local governments. This is why the imperium didn’t control the planets but instead controlled travel between planets. In the early days the imperium only had a handful of laws which were about protecting trade, no slavery, no WMDs, No messing up the planets, no restricting travel, no piracy, no warfare between member worlds, and no messing with the X-boat system later no psionics was added. The imperium didn’t give it nobility any power over local governments outside of dukes and higher representing the planet in the muet. Trade wasn’t as heavy as it is in more current versions of the setting either. I Remember the old LBB book 7 which talked about trade and the different types of trade companies and how the big companies would stop at the class A or occasionally Class B starports from there cargos would transfer to the Subsector/Sector level trade compings which would take the goods from this class A&B worlds to the other class B worlds and C worlds. Really small companies and freetraders would carry goods the rest of the way.
I think one of the big issues and it’s one I hope to see addressed by mongoose is the cosmopolitanism of the Third Imperium. In a lot of cases the travel time is ignored it takes a week to make a jump yet people ignore the effects this has on the setting, Traveller was meant to have the feel of the old sailing ship days not the average day at any major airport. I think the cause of this is how cheap air fares have gotten over the years nobody travels cross country by car so they don’t understand that travelling a week one way can be a major problem.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I think the error was that too many people took the wording of the intros to LBB:4 and LBB:5 and made a fundamental mistake.
"Traveller assumes a remote centralized government* (referred to in this volume as the Imperium), possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable,due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm. On the frontiers**, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce. Defense of the frontier** is mostly provided by local indigenous forces, stiffened by scattered lmperial naval bases manned by small but extremely sophisticated forces. Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of arms, with lmperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the realm. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy of the area do lmperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with speed and overwhelming force.***"
* the empire is mostly off board so to speak
**the setting for advanture is the frontier, where the rules are different to the core worlds
*** the real reason for IN bases, to keep the locals in check.
For some inexplicable reason the idea of planetary autonomy was extended to the core worlds, I think this was an error and remains so.
"Traveller assumes a remote centralized government* (referred to in this volume as the Imperium), possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable,due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm. On the frontiers**, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce. Defense of the frontier** is mostly provided by local indigenous forces, stiffened by scattered lmperial naval bases manned by small but extremely sophisticated forces. Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of arms, with lmperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the realm. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy of the area do lmperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with speed and overwhelming force.***"
* the empire is mostly off board so to speak
**the setting for advanture is the frontier, where the rules are different to the core worlds
*** the real reason for IN bases, to keep the locals in check.
For some inexplicable reason the idea of planetary autonomy was extended to the core worlds, I think this was an error and remains so.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Usually, you use the core worlds as economic milch cows.
So, if it's efficient to allow them to think they enjoy more autonomy, let them continue in that illusion.
So, if it's efficient to allow them to think they enjoy more autonomy, let them continue in that illusion.
It make perfect sense if you look at the imperium the right way. Essentially the worlds in the imperium are markets, there’s no reason for the imperium to improve their infrastructure that’s up to the planetary society itself to improve.
Back when the Imperium was just scattered references in various digest booklets, I never got the impression that the Imperium was feudal in any meaningful sense. It isn't divided into Duchies, counties, baronies, etc. The Emperor isn't handing government and military responsibility to local administrators in exchange for services and taxes. The Empire is divided into sectors and subsectors on strict astrographical basis and Dukes are the governors of these administrative regions.
The Imperium always came across as a trade federation with a government that was essentially an aristocratic corporacracy. The Megacorps got far more attention than any facet of Imperial government. If you look at the megas, the major shareholders of every one is the Imperial Family and either the "Noble families" or a specific family. Plus some cross listings as megas own shares in each other. The Moot isn't CHOAM, but the nobility is tightly tied to interstellar trade. Further reinforcing this was the fact that the Vilani Imperial government still exists in the form of three megacorps. Even the Marquis of Aramis was a corpocrat (part of the Tukera family).
The few times the Imperial government shows up outside of the military, it is the Ministry of Colonization or the like. Or a brief mention that some Imperial agencies regulate the megas. Worlds are interdicted by the Scouts or the Navy. It isn't really clear how much or what governing the "government" actually does.
I always felt that this fit with the few things that the Imperium seemed to care about: free trade, no slavery, no nukes. Seemed like the 'no slavery' rule was always aimed at keeping the megacorps from going overboard on worker abuse, less on telling individual planets. There were always planets with pretty sketchy civil rights, but a number of adventures with Imperial megas concealing their workers' rights abuses or distancing themselves from local government shenanigans.
There was zero information about the core worlds, except a few references to bigger merchant ships operating there.
It could be misremembering, but it felt like the big shift towards more government, more actual feudalism, etc came with the Lorenverse (aka GURPS Traveller). But that might have just been because the main Traveller line was busy wrecking the place.
The Imperium always came across as a trade federation with a government that was essentially an aristocratic corporacracy. The Megacorps got far more attention than any facet of Imperial government. If you look at the megas, the major shareholders of every one is the Imperial Family and either the "Noble families" or a specific family. Plus some cross listings as megas own shares in each other. The Moot isn't CHOAM, but the nobility is tightly tied to interstellar trade. Further reinforcing this was the fact that the Vilani Imperial government still exists in the form of three megacorps. Even the Marquis of Aramis was a corpocrat (part of the Tukera family).
The few times the Imperial government shows up outside of the military, it is the Ministry of Colonization or the like. Or a brief mention that some Imperial agencies regulate the megas. Worlds are interdicted by the Scouts or the Navy. It isn't really clear how much or what governing the "government" actually does.
I always felt that this fit with the few things that the Imperium seemed to care about: free trade, no slavery, no nukes. Seemed like the 'no slavery' rule was always aimed at keeping the megacorps from going overboard on worker abuse, less on telling individual planets. There were always planets with pretty sketchy civil rights, but a number of adventures with Imperial megas concealing their workers' rights abuses or distancing themselves from local government shenanigans.
There was zero information about the core worlds, except a few references to bigger merchant ships operating there.
It could be misremembering, but it felt like the big shift towards more government, more actual feudalism, etc came with the Lorenverse (aka GURPS Traveller). But that might have just been because the main Traveller line was busy wrecking the place.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I actually love this definition of the Imperium, but it does seem to have fallen by the wayside over the years.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Being part of the nobility allows access to the decision makers in the Imperium bureaucracy, and if high enough, directly to the Emperor himself.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
And all you have to do is wait three years for the message to reach him and come back. It's another thing that makes little sense.
A frontier duke has a great deal of autonomy, the sector duke could be at the other end of the sector and thus months away, assuming you take any notice of them.
The emperor, your only real boss, is years away, and far to busy to bother with the likes of you.
Meanwhile there is the Moot that is supposed to be a melting pot of noble and megacorporation shenanigans, but if a noble is at the Moot who is running their subsector?
A frontier duke has a great deal of autonomy, the sector duke could be at the other end of the sector and thus months away, assuming you take any notice of them.
The emperor, your only real boss, is years away, and far to busy to bother with the likes of you.
Meanwhile there is the Moot that is supposed to be a melting pot of noble and megacorporation shenanigans, but if a noble is at the Moot who is running their subsector?
There’s a real problem with direct control of any worlds in the imperium and that’s travel time and the associated communication lag. History has shown well that anytime the communication loop is more than a few days direct control is not possible and it doesn’t matter where you are in the imperium you have a minimum communication loop of 14 days, and that’s only worlds within one jump of your central command center. 14 day loop for the first range 28 for the second 42 for the third and we are not out of the core sector and we has over a month almost a month and a half. The imperium has to allow planetary autonomy just like the British empire had to with its far colonies. It simply not possible for the imperium to directly control its member worlds, at best it could assign governors like the English did but just like the English these governors only job would to be sure the local government doesn’t stray to far off the straight path. But those English governors had the British troops to back them up, unless you have the imperium literally moving entire Armies to different worlds to many troops are going to be locals and not likely to hammer their own people.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Most empires appear to use a combination of indigenous troops, mercenaries, and the Regular Army O.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The Mongols managed it, the Romans managed it, the Chinese managed it.
Direct Imperial rule would just mean each world ruled by an Imperial noble, and would only extend to world with a couple of months travel time.
For the jump 3 early days that is a radius of 24 parsecs. By the time jump 4 is the norm then 32, then for jump 5 its 40, and when the Imperium began using jump 6 naval couriers back in the 700s they could extend that to a radius of 48 parsecs. Beyond that local dukes have to make the decisions in the Emperor's name. By the distance of the Spinward Marches subsector dukes don't even rule their own planets.
The vast majority of the troops in any particular British Empire country was an army made up of locals.
As to the Imperium using its army and navy on its own population there are too many examples to quote
"Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy of the area do lmperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with speed and overwhelming force"
A subsector duke would have access to Imperial Navy, marine and army units to keep control within theri subsector, and they can always hire mercenaties then charge the rebellious world.
Direct Imperial rule would just mean each world ruled by an Imperial noble, and would only extend to world with a couple of months travel time.
For the jump 3 early days that is a radius of 24 parsecs. By the time jump 4 is the norm then 32, then for jump 5 its 40, and when the Imperium began using jump 6 naval couriers back in the 700s they could extend that to a radius of 48 parsecs. Beyond that local dukes have to make the decisions in the Emperor's name. By the distance of the Spinward Marches subsector dukes don't even rule their own planets.
The vast majority of the troops in any particular British Empire country was an army made up of locals.
As to the Imperium using its army and navy on its own population there are too many examples to quote
"Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy of the area do lmperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with speed and overwhelming force"
A subsector duke would have access to Imperial Navy, marine and army units to keep control within theri subsector, and they can always hire mercenaties then charge the rebellious world.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Well maintained lines of communications.
In the Roman example, the default Legion was assisted by a similarly sized allied formation, then friends and allies, then mercenaries, then federated tribes.
Around a giant pond, and a road network.
In the Roman example, the default Legion was assisted by a similarly sized allied formation, then friends and allies, then mercenaries, then federated tribes.
Around a giant pond, and a road network.
Yea but the legions themselves had some serious advantages over the local/allies. Plus in general the Romans didn’t try to enforce direct rule they set a governor who tried to maintain Roman Policy. Also the population that the Roman Legions had to control were vastly inferior as a military force than the Romans, once they encountered a group with a strong fighting background the distance from Rome caused their advance to fail. Also population levels were Incredibly low durning the Roman Empire days which was a factor as was the invention of an actual military as opposed to a warrior class.
