Traveller tech stuck in the 70's?

[Vargr]

I really wish I could find a plausible explanation for a hyperdrive and for antigravity devices, these are the two pieces of "magic" I did not yet manage to get rid off in my settings. Everything else is as "sound" as I can make it, but in these cases (...)

You speak of this as if it were a tragedy...It's just a game. Personally, I'm in it to have fun, not to abide faithfully to 2010 A.D. scientific conventions. 8)

I just have to accept some handwaving to make the setting possible.

Without that skill, the enjoyment of science fiction is not possible. There is not a single SF story that does not use handwavium.

 

[rust]

Personally, I'm in it to have fun, not to abide faithfully to 2010 A.D. scientific conventions. 8)

Well, and I have fun by designing my science fiction settings with the most
plausible technology assumptions I can come up with. 8)

Besides, there are quite a lot of "hard science fiction" stories that use only
already existing technology and technology that is under development and
most likely to be available in the very near future.
In fact, many of these stories were written by scientists working on such
technologies, for example to demonstrate what impact the technologies
could have on their societies and cultures.

A famous example for a hard sf story would be The Dome of Hope by Ale-
xander Kasanzew.

 

[Vargr]

Well, and I have fun by designing my science fiction settings with the most plausible technology assumptions I can come up with. 8)

I had figured that. To each is own, and may you have fun.

However, I think I would quite enjoy playing in one of your scientifically solid games, while you wouldn't enjoy a traditional 70s-tech Traveller game run by me as much. I think my more tolerant attitude to SF allows greater scope for fun than yours.

Besides, there are quite a lot of "hard science fiction" stories that use only
already existing technology

Those are not science fiction stories. A murder mistery on the International Space Station involving the latest prototype of an existing handgun is still just a murder mystery...in space.

and technology that is under development and most likely to be available in the very near future.

That is handwaivium.

In fact, many of these stories were written by scientists working on such
technologies, for example to demonstrate what impact the technologies
could have on their societies and cultures.

No. They were written by scientists working on such technologies that hope to demonstrate what they assume their impact might be on their societies and cultures.

Again, handwavium.

Not to mention drawing attention to research that no doubt can always use some extra funding. :wink:

A famous example for a hard sf story would be The Dome of Hope by Ale-
xander Kasanzew.

Jules Verne wrote some pretty hard SF stories too...at least for his time and era.

 

[BP]

Well, just because this a forum and the posts vaguely related - I have to publicly state that horror is not Science Fiction. Sorry - had to get that off my chest!

Seriously, classifying fiction often must boil down to case specific situations. For instance, Anne McCaffrey's Pern series with its dragons definitely smacks of fantasy. But the only real fantasy (well I'm not sure about the physics of large human carrying flying beasts - but pterodactyls had huge wing spans?) was in the use of psionics. The rest was pretty hard SciFi (even the ships were generation non-FTL).

... Big Lucas himself said more than once that SW is Science Fantasy, not Science Fiction.

He was likely referring to the 'force' (we'll ignore the dramatic sound effects in space). The implied gavitics and the FTL drive are standard SciFi stuff...

Since Traveller has psionics - I'd say they are about even (ducks and flees rapidly...) :lol:

 

[rust]

Well, just because this a forum and the posts vaguely related - I have to publicly state that horror is not Science Fiction. Sorry - had to get that off my chest!

There are crossovers, including Alien, where it would be rather difficult to
decide whether they are more in the horror genre or in the science fiction
genre. It probably depends on whether one looks more at the (horror)
plot or the (science fiction) location.

Crossovers between science fiction and other genres seem to be quite
common. Babylon 5 had a typical fantasy story arc in a science fiction
setting, the Darkover novels are also somewhere between fantasy and
science fiction, like the Pern novels you mentioned.

 

[BP]

...Crossovers between science fiction and other genres seem to be quite common...

Sure - the key words there being 'science fiction and'.

I can even buy Horor and SciFi - but a story (movie/show) set on earth, present history, with no future tech what-so-ever- simply bad guys/ghosts/monstors/demons/etc - is Horror, period. Here in the states that is being classified as SciFi!!!!

'Nightmare on Elm Steet' being classified as SciFi is just wrong!

 

[apoc527]

I'm at the end of Revelation Space by Alistair Reynolds (great book) and I've also read the whole of the Ian Douglas "Marines in Space" books (Inheritance, Heritage, and Legacy trilogies) and I've got to say that I completely agree with phavoc in the first page.

In these books, nanotechnology gets developed to logical extremes and you know what, gaming wouldn't be very fun in those settings. Everything can be done better by computers and self-replicating and self-evolving gear. In Revelation Space, the 4 km long starship (it's STL--kind of hard science) constantly rebuilds itself and redesigns itself. The "warchive" has samples of every weapon known to man and can replicate and even design from scratch any conceivable weapon. It's cool, but from a GM's perspective a complete nightmare. It's like having a Central Supply Catalog in your ship that costs you nothing. Those capabilities are just outside of our common reference points and while we can obviously imagine them and speculate about the effects on society, that doesn't mean it feels "right."

So, I like less mature nanotech that's not effectively god like.

 

[BP]

I'm at the end of Revelation Space by Alistair Reynolds (great book)...

Highly recommend the whole series and his other works...

And, yeah, roleplaying a Revelation Sapce Universe would be .. challenging...

 

[aspqrz]

... nanotechnology gets developed to logical extremes and you know what, gaming wouldn't be very fun in those settings ...

There are ways and means of dealing with it, I could tell you where you might find them in gaming supplements, but I'd have to kill myself first 8)

Nudge. Wink

Phil

 

[HorusZA]

I'm at the end of Revelation Space by Alistair Reynolds (great book)...

Highly recommend the whole series and his other works...

And, yeah, roleplaying a Revelation Sapce Universe would be .. challenging...

I'm not sure about that. I think playing in a transhuman-type setting means you will not be having "traditional" Traveller adventures. It requires a shift in the mindset and expectation of what the game will be about. Okay, so you have access to planet-busting technology and nano-fabricators that can churn out anything you want. Doesn't matter because the game is not about actually using it to blow stuff up. The technology, in a way, becomes less important, it just kinda fades into the background and enables the telling of a story instead of providing its solution. If you want your game to be about Mercs kicking ass, then perhaps a far-future transhuman setting is probably not going to fit.

This reminds be a bit about an old Star Trek campaign I played at 'vasity: We played commanding officers on a Federation Cruiser. We had phasers, photon torpedoes and awesome tech at our disposal, yet we only ever fired a handful of shots in anger. The theme of the campaign was not about using the power, but how to solve problems without having to. Sure, the "Prime Directive" is a big 900kg gorilla that's looking over your shoulder to make sure you don't, but it was still a very satisfying experience.

 

[BP]

... It requires a shift in the mindset and expectation of what the game will be about. ...

Exactly

 

[Vargr]

I'm at the end of Revelation Space by Alistair Reynolds (great book) and I've also read the whole of the Ian Douglas "Marines in Space" books (...) I've got to say that I completely agree with phavoc in the first page. In these books, nanotechnology gets developed to logical extremes and you know what, gaming wouldn't be very fun in those settings. Everything can be done better by computers and self-replicating and self-evolving gear. (...) It's cool, but from a GM's perspective a complete nightmare. It's like having a Central Supply Catalog in your ship that costs you nothing.

I agree with you. The human element is removed, who would want to play in a setting like that? Well, techno-porn fetishists might.


For me the problem with Sci-Fi of that genre is that it is just too optimistic and perfect. There has hardly been a technical problem that Man has resolved during the course of history, that didn't lead to new problems; even if only in the long run but often times more grievous than the original ones. "Nanotech will make it all better forever" is pure wishful thinking.

Not that I haven't read stories of the kind and quite enjoyed them; but as far as I am concerned, claiming that type of SF is somewhat more "mature" or "realistic" is quite hilarious. Not only do we not know if this technology is possible as it is currently envisioned by wishful thinking scientists, it makes so many assumptions on technical, scientific, social and political levels that in the end it has just slightly more verissimilitude than 1930's Space Opera.

Back in the 50's SF said Nuclear would "make everything better"; just like the scientists of the time promissed. Seen any Fission-powered cars in your streets lately?


Seriously now. If verissimilitude is the absolute-must-have in your readings then Bob's your Uncle in this strain of SF. As for myself, I can only say I am more interested in tales about the human condition and asking "what if?". Whether "thingamajig" A or B are currently predicted to be avaiable IRL 10 years, 20 years or 100 years into the future; or whether they are a shot-in-the-dark speculations about scientific uncertainties, is something I push to the background. I'm in it for the story, the adventure and the possibilities; not the techno-porn.


I unintentionally gave Rust a hard time (sorry Rust hope you didn't get mad) because when he says some recent kinds of science fiction are more "realistic" than 70's Traveller, he was edging very close to the idiotic geeks that have told me flat in the face "My new SF is better than your old SF". And that ain't polite.

Not you Rust, you're the picture of politeness. You just reminded me of those [censored]!! :wink:

 

[rust]

I unintentionally gave Rust a hard time (sorry Rust hope you didn't get mad) because when he says some recent kinds of science fiction are more "realistic" than 70's Traveller, he was edging very close to the idiotic geeks that have told me flat in the face "My new SF is better than your old SF". And that ain't polite.

No problem. :lol:

While I prefer a simulationist approach to science fiction and an emphasis
on technology for the background and on social skills and science skills
for the actual game, I would never see this preference as a kind of "value
judgement" - it is in no way "better" than any other kind of roleplaying
style, it is just the one I like most.

In my view there is no "badwrongfun", only fun, and the best way to role-
play is the one the referee and the players have the most fun with. Since
different people have fun with different things (which I find great, other-
wise the world would be a lot more boring), to declare one way to have
fun as "better" than others would seem to me like an attempt to declare
that fish is "better" than meat, red "better" than blue, or apples "better"
than oranges.

 

[rust]

+ Relatively stupid robots and low tech computers. No expert systems, just giant calculators

There were a couple of very intelligent and even psionic robots, just think
of Anson Argyris or Lucky Log.

 

[GamerDude]

Well, just because this a forum and the posts vaguely related - I have to publicly state that horror is not Science Fiction. Sorry - had to get that off my chest!

HEAR! HEAR! I'm tired of watching the shelf space in every bookstore's Sci-Fi/Fantasy section being taken over by what is basically "I am strong woman, only weak men exist supernatural romantic soft core porn adventures" Toss some pentagrams on the covers (especially as tattoos on this skimpily clad women wearing primarily tight leather, and require lots of tattoos to make it "modern") and WALAH! Instand "Sci-Fi" novel? UGH. It's getting hard to find good sci-fi on the shelves any more.

BTW, it's even more fun for me, I live in Washington State, where the "Twilight" series of teen vampire romance crap is set.

 

[BP]

...For me the problem with Sci-Fi of that genre is that it is just too optimistic and perfect. There has hardly been a technical problem that Man has resolved during the course of history, that didn't lead to new problems; even if only in the long run but often times more grievous than the original ones. "Nanotech will make it all better forever" is pure wishful thinking.

To be fair - I don't want to spoil anything - but that particluar author had the Melding Plague and technology causing more problems (especially when taken notice of)...

And Clarke had a few sayings to cover this as well - "Our lifetime may be the last that will be lived out in a technological society. "

 

[BP]

...BTW, it's even more fun for me, I live in Washington State, where the "Twilight" series of teen vampire romance crap is set.

Ouch (I feel your pain brother! - but that might start some flames ).

I figure some marketing jackals decided to ride the coat-tails of Star Wars and the like and associate vampires, demons and such with the Sci-Fi genre. :x (Not that there aren't some good, legitamate Sci-Fi crossovers that do this - but its decidely not the case for the majority - there's plenty of good SciFi that merge mythical creatures and such with their Science Fiction.)

The same thing happened with Space Opera being distorted into Space Soap Opera. I rarely ever watch TV - so I'm sure there has got to be some Sci-Fi Reality Shows by now...

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Ok, thousands of years into the future, I predict, based upon solid scientific evidence, the following;

There will be no trade. Foodstuffs, clothing, etc., will be freely downloadable or reproducable.

There will be no barter, no currency.

Religious extremists will have almost obliterated humanity at some point.

There will, eventually, be no religions.

A super plague will have almost obliterated humanity at some point.

There will, eventually be no untreatable human diseases.

Old age and non-violent death will be a thing of the past.

Food will be entirely synthetic.

Colonising Earth-like planets, will, at first, be difficult, because of new viral strains, eventually controlled.

One way, short range, time travel to the future will be possible.

Interstellar travel will still be sub-light.

Large mammals will have become extinct, except where specially bred.

Contact will have occured, but with a few civilizations very distant. They will mostly be similar, having gone through the same evolutionary solutions. Their dry life will also have gone through the same evolutionary progression.

Sexual reproduction will be a thing of the past.

Human beings will, eventually, never reach sexual maturity. And there will be no male/female differentiation.

There will be three genetic strains of humanity.

There will be no military.

There will be few occuptions and most will idle their lives away, creating different synthetic lives for themselves in cyberspace.

Human contact will be very rare, eventually. A person may never see another human being for years.

Entertainment will be entirely produced by dry life.

There. I could be wrong, but this future is more likely than the 3rd Imperium. At least from what we know now.

Thing is, is that the kind of future we want for our rpgs today?

I would say not. Of course Traveller is a product of its time, but whats wrong with that? Its a game, right? The real future of humanity will be a lot less fun.

 

[AndrewW]

There will be few occuptions and most will idle their lives away, creating different synthetic lives for themselves in cyberspace.

Or maybe in JudgeDredd Megacities.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Or maybe in JudgeDredd Megacities.

The irony is, they'll probably be playing Traveller