Traveller II

[dmccoy1693]

My own guess (emphasize, this is a guess only, I have no direct knowledge) the thinking is that knowing Traveller's history of its fans choosing a system they like and sticking with it, Mongoose wants this version of Traveller to last long enough that the fractured gamer base unifies into a single gamer base. After 10 years, few will remember there was a T20 or a GURPS Traveller or various other Traveller iterations and that they will only be aware of 1 version or those versions will be difficult to come by that those that really want to play Traveller will only have 1 realistic option (save CT reprints). Those other versions will be as distant memories as 2nd ed D&D. Hence the sunset clause in the license.

Releasing a 2nd edition will undermine that. It will go from the "only" edition of Traveller to the "latest" edition of Traveller, one that could be skipped entirely if the gamers are perfectly happy with the current version.

Atleast, that is my guess as to the thinking. I could be way off.

 

[AKAmra]

Looks like Mongoose has other plans for the Traveller line. Seems like most folks are good with the core rules.

Actually, Mongoose lic probably wouldn't allow them to produce something called Traveller II

That may be true, but I'm really talking about a revision of the rules; not what they would call it.

Conan went to the Atlantian edition and then Revised (I think), they didn't call it Conan II and Conan III.

 

[AKAmra]

My own guess (emphasize, this is a guess only, I have no direct knowledge) the thinking is that knowing Traveller's history of its fans choosing a system they like and sticking with it, Mongoose wants this version of Traveller to last long enough that the fractured gamer base unifies into a single gamer base. After 10 years, few will remember there was a T20 or a GURPS Traveller or various other Traveller iterations and that they will only be aware of 1 version or those versions will be difficult to come by that those that really want to play Traveller will only have 1 realistic option (save CT reprints). Those other versions will be as distant memories as 2nd ed D&D. Hence the sunset clause in the license.

Releasing a 2nd edition will undermine that. It will go from the "only" edition of Traveller to the "latest" edition of Traveller, one that could be skipped entirely if the gamers are perfectly happy with the current version.

Atleast, that is my guess as to the thinking. I could be way off.

That strategy would certainly make sense. Traveller can be a pretty confusing and overwhelming experience for the newcomer.

That's the primary reason I don't think Mongoose should be shy about reprinting the best and most useful of past products into MGT. The goal being a one-stop source for the Traveller RPG.

 

[phavoc]

If Mongoose's throught process is to think the gamer base would unify behind their rules (and not remember any of the previous versions), I think they are going to be sadly mistaken. Traveller grognards remember all of the separate versions of Traveller. I don't think the current version is any better/worse than previous ones. It is, for the most part, the same game system that came out a long time ago.

Nothing done thus far by Mongoose is unique or memorable. While it is nice to see out of print things come to light, it's not a net-new contribution to the game. Not like we saw in the classic/megatraveller with FASA, Judges Guild, and others.

I don't count the B5 Trav addons, or any other supplements using Traveller rules as Traveller supplements.

As I've said before, I would like to see Mongoose ADD to the total Traveller universe. Reprinting older, out-of-print supplements is nice, but it doesn't add to the game. It does give players access to older information. But if that's what they want to do for their contribution, at least they could reprint the works without adding in additional errors and incorrect info.

 

[GamerDude]

... As I've said before, I would like to see Mongoose ADD to the total Traveller universe. Reprinting older, out-of-print supplements is nice, but it doesn't add to the game.

Ok, time for me to pipe in here.

Mongoose does not just 'reprint' older OOP suppliments, but actually gives them a total update AND expand them. Hearing someone claim "Mongoose Traveller Books 1 & 2 are just a direct reprint of the CT'Mercinary' and 'High Guard' LBBs " astounds me and I can only fathom they really haven't read either the CT LBB or the Mongoose version.

Pulling out MGT: Mercenary & CT: Mercenary I see:
- CT: Merc 52 1/2 size pages VS MGT:Merc at 108 full size pages
- the chapter "Mercenary Ticket" in CT:Merc is 8 pages long, vs MGT: Merc 20 pages.

Adventures too, like "Prison Planet" are significantly expanded.

Just looking at the additional books by Mongoose that have NO CT version such Scoundrel, Dilettante, etc. also invalidate this claim.

Mongoose is doing a great deal to expand and improve that lovely classic, original Traveller and personally I look forward to all that Mongoose has planned.

 

[phavoc]

... As I've said before, I would like to see Mongoose ADD to the total Traveller universe. Reprinting older, out-of-print supplements is nice, but it doesn't add to the game.

Ok, time for me to pipe in here.

Mongoose does not just 'reprint' older OOP suppliments, but actually gives them a total update AND expand them. Hearing someone claim "Mongoose Traveller Books 1 & 2 are just a direct reprint of the CT'Mercinary' and 'High Guard' LBBs " astounds me and I can only fathom they really haven't read either the CT LBB or the Mongoose version.

Pulling out MGT: Mercenary & CT: Mercenary I see:
- CT: Merc 52 1/2 size pages VS MGT:Merc at 108 full size pages
- the chapter "Mercenary Ticket" in CT:Merc is 8 pages long, vs MGT: Merc 20 pages.

Adventures too, like "Prison Planet" are significantly expanded.

Just looking at the additional books by Mongoose that have NO CT version such Scoundrel, Dilettante, etc. also invalidate this claim.

Mongoose is doing a great deal to expand and improve that lovely classic, original Traveller and personally I look forward to all that Mongoose has planned.

Umm, you ought to check your quotes there. I never compared MgT specifically to CT. If you will actually read my post, you will see that I mentioned ADDING to the canon, not just reprinting it. Many of their re-printings have been on the later materials. They have not direclty reproduced the classic little black books. But then again none of the other gaming companies who held the license have done that either.

And as to your assertion that some of the few original books they have printed "invalidates this claim", lets compare the reprints to the original body of work. Reprints far outweigh original materials.

I would like to hear you justify your statement that MgT is doing "a great deal to expand and improve" the Traveller universe. Are they adding more than what was included in the original set of rulebooks? Yes, but then again so have the other companies that came before them, as well as GDW did with Megatraveller.

Please be sure to correctly reference and quote your facts before being astounded by others claims. Also, if you pay closer attention to the updates you'll find that they do not significantly add to the game. Many of the changes are simply nuances to the original rules. A case in point is the change to how ship maintenance is performed. There is a thread that this is being discussed in currently. As with other changes to the rules, it's a fair question to ask was this an error/oversight, or was the rule change deliberate and simply needs to be added to errata to clear it up?

And you completely neglected the other issue of their reprints - the fact that they ARE reprints should REDUCE the number of errors present. That's not the case. Rules that were clear and settled in prior versions now are confusing. Other issues, such as changing the mechanics of jumping are changed in MgT core rulebooks, but when they reprint (such as Sector Fleet / Grand Fleet) the rules reference prior versions of Traveller and not the MgT one.

 

[AKAmra]

I'd think that Mongoose will add a significant amount of new material to Traveller if they really do a ten year run. The amount of material they've put out so far is pretty impressive and eventually they're going to break more new ground.

Rehashing Traveller material for the new system is mandatory. What are they supposed to do - refer customers to prior editions with the suggestion to convert it MGt on their own? That simply makes no sense.

If some Traveller gamers just want MGT material that covers new ground - than just buy MGT products that fit that criteria, if and when its published.

The material to be published for MGT should be chosen as if no other version of Traveller exists, it must stand on it's own. The writers of course should know Traveller canon, and even nearly just re-print past products that Mongoose feels deserve that treatment, but the buyer doesn't even have to know that. MGT can also change things if they want and with Mark Miller's approval.

The approval process through MM gives MGT all the clout it needs; The line should be written for MGT gamers as the primary concern.

 

[DFW]

That may be true, but I'm really talking about a revision of the rules; not what they would call it.

Conan went to the Atlantian edition and then Revised (I think), they didn't call it Conan II and Conan III.

Marc wouldn't approve it.

 

[simonh]

One thing that would interest me is an alternate Traveller setting tha stays true to the core Traveller technological assumptions but is developed independent of the OTU. Not a radically different setting like Dredd or Hammers Slammers, but something generally recognisable as a Traveller setting.

Of course to make I interesting it would need to be different in some significant respects, but I'd want to retain enough compatibility that most of the supplements would remain relevant.

This would be quite liberating for the writers because there would be no canon to worry about, yet much of the material might still be portable back to the OTU by GMs without too much trouble.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Ishmael]

The approval process through MM gives MGT all the clout it needs; The line should be written for MGT gamers as the primary concern.

The same approval process that has given the appearance of being hostile to new material? This approval process has already cost Traveller at least one, and perhaps more quality writers. Given the apparent hostility towards new material, who would be willing to dive in knowing they might ( and probably will ) get attacked for their efforts?

As a result, I agree 100% with simonh.
Such as alternate setting would have to spearheaded, or at least endorsed, by Mongoose, otherwise it will simply be another fan's ATU with no real incentive for others to add upon it.

 

[DFW]

As a result, I agree 100% with simonh.
Such as alternate setting would have to spearheaded, or at least endorsed, by Mongoose, otherwise it will simply be another fan's ATU with no real incentive for others to add upon it.

Someone could do it using the OGL. All the core tech assumptions would be intact and a whole new setting could be created that writers could participate in.

 

[Treebore]

One thing that would interest me is an alternate Traveller setting tha stays true to the core Traveller technological assumptions but is developed independent of the OTU. Not a radically different setting like Dredd or Hammers Slammers, but something generally recognisable as a Traveller setting.

Of course to make I interesting it would need to be different in some significant respects, but I'd want to retain enough compatibility that most of the supplements would remain relevant.

This would be quite liberating for the writers because there would be no canon to worry about, yet much of the material might still be portable back to the OTU by GMs without too much trouble.

Simon Hibbs

Cthonian Stars probably qualifies. It is early Traveller, while Earth is still Earth and not aware of the greater space that exists. TL averages around 9 for the first setting/iteration of it coming out. If sales warrant, further supplements will cover different time periods at different TL's.

It may follow their Cthulthu Tech model, I am not sure, I haven't been buying into that since I typically dislike Lovecraft. Cthonian Stars gets rid of my biggest problem with the mythology, which is the inevitable hopelessness of it all. Or maybe I should say, since it does not religiously follow the mythology, I am free to make it ultimately winnable.

 

[simonh]

Cthonian Stars sounds interesting. I think a Mongoose publication would have more chance os sticking. But I'm not sure to what extent the OTU has the edge in raw selling power.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Treebore]

Cthonian Stars sounds interesting. I think a Mongoose publication would have more chance os sticking. But I'm not sure to what extent the OTU has the edge in raw selling power.

Simon Hibbs

As it is, Mongoose will be the publisher of Cthonian Stars, hopefully in April.

 

[AKAmra]

The approval process through MM gives MGT all the clout it needs; The line should be written for MGT gamers as the primary concern.

The same approval process that has given the appearance of being hostile to new material? This approval process has already cost Traveller at least one, and perhaps more quality writers. Given the apparent hostility towards new material, who would be willing to dive in knowing they might ( and probably will ) get attacked for their efforts?

As a result, I agree 100% with simonh.
Such as alternate setting would have to spearheaded, or at least endorsed, by Mongoose, otherwise it will simply be another fan's ATU with no real incentive for others to add upon it.

I think we're talking past each other. The post you quoted was aimed at Traveller gronards that seem to want MGT to supplement past Traveller editions rather than be it's own line. I'm aware of the difficulties that MM and company cause and I have posted on it in the past.

I'm all for alternate settings; I was very happy to see Mongoose branching out from the OTU. But, I don't know how successful a Traveller-like setting would be competing with the actual Traveller OTU using a Traveller system. Only folks with inside knowledge would understand why Mongoose would have two similar setting competing with each other.

 

[AKAmra]

One thing that would interest me is an alternate Traveller setting tha stays true to the core Traveller technological assumptions but is developed independent of the OTU. Not a radically different setting like Dredd or Hammers Slammers, but something generally recognisable as a Traveller setting.

Of course to make I interesting it would need to be different in some significant respects, but I'd want to retain enough compatibility that most of the supplements would remain relevant.

This would be quite liberating for the writers because there would be no canon to worry about, yet much of the material might still be portable back to the OTU by GMs without too much trouble.

Simon Hibbs

Cthonian Stars probably qualifies. It is early Traveller, while Earth is still Earth and not aware of the greater space that exists. TL averages around 9 for the first setting/iteration of it coming out. If sales warrant, further supplements will cover different time periods at different TL's.

It may follow their Cthulthu Tech model, I am not sure, I haven't been buying into that since I typically dislike Lovecraft. Cthonian Stars gets rid of my biggest problem with the mythology, which is the inevitable hopelessness of it all. Or maybe I should say, since it does not religiously follow the mythology, I am free to make it ultimately winnable.

Cthonian Stars is the alternate setting I'm most exited about so far. I am a long time CoC player and like the mythos. But, I've never run it as hopeless and go for more of a Howard feel rather than Lovecraft.

 

[GamerDude]

And you completely neglected the other issue of their reprints - the fact that they ARE reprints should REDUCE the number of errors present.

The wording of your post lead me to believe you thought Mongoose was merely repringint the CT books, and that is what I addressed.

Seeing now you are talking "reprinting OOP suppliments" as LBBs (are ANY of the full size MGT books OOP?.

Well, yes I agree these newer printings/format should have errors corrected etc. But also understand MGP's orignial line was the full size book, their plans with almost every other line before MGT was "Full size books for all, and also a pocket/LBB printing of the core book". In the early days of MGT, the shout out for LBBs of EVERY MGT book clearly was strong enough that MGP saw fit to fill that market. Good business sense.

But yes, like a supplemental printing of the same book, the LBB should have all the current errata and corrections.

 

[smiths121]

I think Mongoose have done a lot of good work with the Traveller ruleset and taken it to places it has never been before. They clearly have encourage third parties doing entirely new gaming universes and rules add-ons. My rough count suggests that the count of 3rd party licenses is about the same as CT days, not said that for decade or 2.

Initially like GamerDude I was confused by phavoc's comments about lack of innovation by Mongoose. However after going to work an mulling over in the back of my brain, I have a certain sympathy for the point of view.

I feel Mongoose detected a certain "them were the days" from us old-timers for Classic Traveller, so set their production up in 1105 - thing is, it has been done - in CT (and arguable re-done in GURPS). We know where the future lies. I think they have done wonders with the Secrets of the Ancients, sort of B5 style ancients.

I would like to see then develop their own OTU Milieu. Even GURPS moved away from 1105+. I think this would allow Mongoose to innovate in a way they cannot in 1105 and satisfy Phavoc.

By way of example check out what Sturn has done with coming out of the Long Night http://www.ourstead.com/trav/terrandawn/ really good stuff. I have some inclination of the huge amount of work Sturn put in to make the competing facts on OTU work for this, but there is ultimately GM freedom in this setting - in short fun again!

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I've just skimmed through this thread, but wasn't it part of the deal that Mongoose wouldn't release a second edition for ten years after initial publication? If this is the case, I'd expect to see either a new edtion at that point, or the licence being dropped/revoked.

 

[OddjobXL]

Given the partnership Mongoose has with Red Brick, and the new miniatures game coming out based on Noble Armada, I'd really like to see Mongoose make Fading Suns the "in house" Traveller setting. I have to be honest, I'm never going to be a miniatures guy. No time for painting, no room for storage, and of the old RPer mindset that combat is something best gotten over with quickly to get on the with game (which Traveller does very well).

I've got the original Noble Armada but mostly just keep it for sake of completeness. It'd be the first thing off the shelf if I needed more room. That doesn't mean there can't be an alternate, more narrative and informal, space combat system in addition to the minis game.

Traveller is a brilliant system in that it's flexible enough to be used in many different ways and with great ease. Mongoose has shown that in the alternate setting books they've already done. Fading Suns is brilliant, and famous, as a kitchen sink setting where almost anything can be finessed with one excuse or another to fit into it. Put the two together and you've got the Reeses peanut butter cup of roleplaying, IMHO.