[Traveller Battlefield Dev] New Combat Rules to Try!

Okay, been mulling all your comments over and engaging in some deep Game Design Meditation. This is where we are currently at in our thinking:

  • The 'floating' target number based on the target Dodging or Parrying is a nice idea that gets the 'cut and thrust' we were looking for into the game... but it is unwieldy when it happens every time. To this end, we are thinking that you get a straight 8+ to make a successful attack roll (as per current rules) and, also similar to the current rules, the target can choose to make a Reaction (and make as many Reactions as they like in a round - one per attack - at a cumulative DM-1 for each that will apply to every check they make in their next round).
  • However, these Dodges and Parries are made as Battlefield Dev suggests, making an opposed check against the attack roll.
  • This should retain the 'cut and thrust' we are looking for, but it is no longer applied to every attack thus speeding things up (and allowing 'tanks' in heavy armour to just bulldoze through things while nimble weaklings desperately try to just survive a battle).
  • Attack rolls only have DEX added to them, not STR. This was a holdover from playing old school D&D (!), and it makes more sense for DEX to apply to attack rolls, and then have STR applied to damage or AP.
  • The 'all or nothing' AP is something we like a lot, but we will not bring it into Traveller until and unless there is a completely new edition (which we are not even thinking about at the moment). However, at this stage, it is likely to pop up in a 'variant' form of Traveller we are working on, so comments on this still welcomed.
  • Pistols should, of course, be useable in melee combat.
  • Glancing blows should double Protection not halve damage. Very good point by the the gentleman who suggested that.
  • For Initiative, we are now thinking that characters should use DEX or INT as a flat score to determine initiative order. Athletics (dexterity) gets added to either).
Let me know what you think of these tweaks!
I like the design spirit of the rules and the goals you're trying to achieve. I like putting this info out there early for feedback, so thank you for that.

I HATE group initiative. It undermines the ebb-and-flow, cut-and-thrust you're striving towards. I am a fan of rolling every round, but if getting that comes at the cost of using group initiative, no thanks.

Most of the tweaks you've suggested above address initial concerns around dodges, parries, pistols in melee, & glancing blows, or are at least a step towards finding a better implementation. Much appreciated.

The tweaks to Disarming I'll have to try at the table to see how I feel about them.

I really have a reflexive dislike of the all-or-nothing AP rules. Maybe I'll warm to them when I work through more scenarios, but I highly doubt it.

While I appreciate you putting this out for consideration early, it still really stinks for it to come so closely on the heels of the 22/23/24 updates. I realize there's no such thing as a good time to float the idea of a new edition, but this just feels too close. Also, while I appreciate the desire to spice up the combat rules and I overall like the areas you're trying to improve, AP wouldn't have ranked anywhere near the top of a "tweaks to Traveller" list. I'm not a designer, but I'm just not seeing the appeal of it or how it will make the game better. It appears that Mongoose is set on this particular susbsystem, however, so I'll give it more consideration. I'm open to being persuaded, but I think it's a near-vertical climb for you to convince me this is a superior implementation of armor protection. In fact, it's probably a greater-than-vertical/inverted climb. Free-climbing with a backpack of granite for additional penalty modifiers.
 
While I appreciate you putting this out for consideration early, it still really stinks for it to come so closely on the heels of the 22/23/24 updates. I realize there's no such thing as a good time to float the idea of a new edition, but this just feels too close.
I think what you are missing is that this system is not being designed specifically for the Traveller Core Rules. It is being designed for another Traveller spin off (like Pioneer and 2300 are Traveller spinoffs, using a modified version of the core rules). It's being tossed out here for alpha test level feedback for this other project and to see if there is support for it in a future Core Rules update.
 
Is this "variant" form of Traveller a miniatures game by any chance?
Because I could see the all-or-nothing AP rule having a place in vehicle combat.
 
Been giving some thought to the all or nothing option with armour.

MY THOUGHTS

I don’t fundamentally disagree with the idea that, “if a bullet comes through armour it might as well not have been there” premise. I’m not saying it’s not right but it doesn’t feel right. If the weapons seriously overmatches the armour there is no doubt - 50 Cal to the chest and your Level III vest isn’t going to do squat. But… it might stop an AK round. It’s not rated for it but the right angle, bit of luck and wham! It came though but the armour did enough of a job to rob it of a significant amount of energy that at least you wake up. In the ER admittedly but awake.
This is perfectly reflected in WW1 where the introduction of helmets saw an immediate increase in head injury cases in the field hospitals. At first it was thought that the men were taking more risks but it turned out that the instead of being killed by a head injury the helmets did their job of turning a lethal wound into a survivable one.

Prior to the introduction of firearms it can be argued that armour always reduced damage - whether that damage is from a muscle powered or even mechanically powered weapon like a crossbow. While generally more susceptible to pointed weapons it’s basically been a battle of armour versus high momentum, low energy attacks. I’d say that most melee and muscle powered weapons have little to no intrinsic armour piercing ability other than by dint of the strength of the wielder and the weapons relative size generating an amount of damage - with rare exceptions for things like estocs, stilettos, picks, hardened steel bodkins or similar weapons specifically designed to penetrate armour. Even then the armour piecing value would be fairly low.

With the arrival of bullets - or slug throwers in Traveller parlance - these older armours find themselves completely outclassed by the extraordinary amounts of energy that bullets and later energy weapons deliver. A mere 22LR delivers as much energy as a 170lb draw longbow for example. While it could be made bullet proof in reality the sheer weight and bulk it added make it impracticable for most. So much so that personal armour disappears for a time before reappearing when aramid type fibres, ceramics and exotic alloys arrive that are capable of dealing with it. Initially this new ballistic armour is flexible but as it is susceptible to blunt force trauma vital areas are further protected by the addition of rigid plates. And, just like pre-firearm armour, as technology advances the amount of coverage of rigid armour increases until once again the fully plate armoured soldier rises to prominence.

However, an oft overlooked advantage of rigid armour is its superior ability to deflect a direct strike by virtue of it the attack not striking at an optimum angle. To be fair, this effect is severely mitigated if the incoming attack significantly overmatches the armour so only a small bonus would be appropriate and even then this would be completely down to luck. But, it could be the difference between buying the next round or buying the farm. This very much mirrors the effect of helmets where a 9mm round blows through one and deflects off another! Arguably flexible armour does this as well but to such a degree less that it can be figured to be part of its armour value.


MY HOUSE RULES (work in progress🧐)

First we need to clarify some terms
1. Damage - as rolled on the damage dice.
2. Armour Value - Armour Value plus any bonus against that type of weapon and any bonus for rigid armour - see Rigid Armour Bonus below.
3. Adjusted Armour Value (aAV) which is the AV minus the AP of the weapon. Note that some weapons may have a negative AP
5. Effect is basically what happens if the damage is more than the aAV.
6. Impact is what happens if the damage is less than the aAV.

Armour

Rigid Armour Bonus
All eras of armour - it works equally for TL3 plate vs a sword (however see Pre-Industrial Armour below) as well as TL12 Combat armour vs a plasma bolt.
Add 1d6 - 3 (minimum 0) temporary AV to the rigid armour’s current Armour Value.
Advanced rule; 1d6 - 4 + (AV/10 round down)

Pre-industrial Armour. All armour up to TL4 has its AV halved (round down) versus projectiles that are not muscle or mechanically powered.

Effect

Melee & Muscle Powered Projectile - incl. crossbow.

Normal Effect > aAV - take that amount of damage.
High Impact - Damage > 1/2 AV. 1D3 damage if flexible armour or head hit. No additional effect if rigid armour. Optional DEX roll to avoid further effect like knockdown or penalty on next attack.
Low Impact - Damage <= 1/2 AV. Armour does it’s job completely.

Projectiles - incl. Lasers

High Effect - Damage > 2 x aAV All armour is ignored - the armour is so overmatched it might as well not have been there
Low Effect - Damage > aAv. Add 1/2 aAV (round down) to damage - the armour had some effect.

Note that there is no Impact for lasers or other electromagnetic weapon attacks.
High Impact - Damage > 1/2 AV. 1D3 damage if flexible armour or head hit. No additional effect if rigid armour. STR or DEX roll to stay on your feet - whichever is best.
Low Impact - Damage <= 1/2 AV. 1d3 damage if flexible armour and head hit otherwise no noticeable effect.

WEAPON ARMOUR PIERCING RATINGS

As written the rules in Battefield Dev for AP seem way overpowered and go a long way to making armour completely redundant - a la Star Wars. The values look more like how much penetration they have on an unarmoured sophont rather than an armoured one!

As a start I’d half all the firearms and laser AP values - rounding down for pistols/smg/carbines and up for rifles. For heavy weapons I’d divide those values by three.

I’d remove all the AP from melee weapons and muscle powered/mechanical projectiles - arguably that’s already figured in their damage dice.
Maybe give a the dagger and cutlass AP1 vs flexible armour.
 
The issue with armour, penetration, and damage is that in trying to simplify a lot is lost.

If I throw a bullet at you it bounces off, if I hold it in my hand poking through my knuckles and punch you with it, providing I have good technique and rotate my hips or step through the punch the bullet will apply a great deal of pressure and may break the ski, puncture some muscle, break a bone.

If I swap the bullet for a pointy dagger I can get right through into your vital organs with less force. If I swing a sword or lumber axe at you I could cut you from shoulder to abdomen (very messy)

Fire a bullet from a gun and it penetrates and causes internal damage. Fire it a higher velocity it can cause more damage but will likely over penetrate.

Armour designed to stop melee weapons - stab vests - are often useless against bullets, and bullet resistant materials are often useless against sharp knives, never mind the lumber axe.
 
The issue with armour, penetration, and damage is that in trying to simplify a lot is lost.

Exactly, but simplify is pretty much a game requirement. Traveller already uses one of the simplest armour versus damage models and that is absolutely fine.

You can go crazy modelling reality in a game but it is possible to introduce nuances that attempt to do that without breaking everybody’s brain.

We can reduce damage to momentum and energy based with the former representing the muscle power and the latter guns. I’m pretty sure explosive blast could go either way but I’m currently going with energy but possibly with a armour multiplier - armour seems to be very good against explosions until it isn’t and then the whole might as well not have been there comes up again!

As for armour, it’s a similar story. Two broad categories - flexible and rigid. Both can be divided into low and high tech with the former being halved against bullets and the latter, if flexible, halved against melee. I can’t see a broadsword fairing any better against a rigid SAPI plate than a breastplate.
 
I dislike breaking armour into low tech vs high tech.
However, this is more because I think there should be very high tech as well - Armour designed for plasma is simply completely different than Armour designed for guns.

Right now we have scattered and inconsistent Armour types, with unique rules for things like reflec, and blanket rules like archaic armour is worse against all firearms. I think we should standardize damage types, and then have Armour get values against those damage types.

It's way more complicated up front, but I think it's better than the scattered inconsistent rules we currently have.

To resolve the complexity, I would suggest picking 'the expected' type and making that the main Armour value (say firearms), and then the other ones become a sub point. Those who generally use standard, can ignore the sub points, and those games that need the unusual can easily find consistent values.
 
Definitely agree that Traveller's armor system is currently a mess. Fixing that before trying to solve penetration makes a lot of sense to me.
 
The rule on dual weapons say that you can use (for example) a blade and a pistol. So, presumably, you can use a pistol in melee.

My suggestion would be that if a pistol-user is in melee, they don't get to use their "ranged combat" skill (because they're not using the sights).
BUT they can still roll 2D6 and add their dex bonus when firing the pistol. Also, the target could dodge or parry (knocking the pistol away) and not receive the minus 2 penalty for ranged weapons.
I am aware of no combat-trained pistol shooter that uses their pistol's sights in close combat. There is no need. It is less accurate, more time consuming, and completely kills your peripheral senses. Most shooters that I know only use sights when shooting a rifle.
 
Thats fair.

(However, if I'm getting into a fight, and we all have basic civilian arms and armour.. im avoiding that fight if at all possible. If both of us are plinking away, i either risk dying, or run away. Or rely on good luck but i don't want to do that.

Or better, i use tactics and strategy to ensure my opponent cant fight back. Shoot from out of their range, where they can't flee, nor can they close with me. Etc. I dont need high end military equipment for that. But i still aim to win without bothering to roll dice. Dice are, in the long term, a death sentence for travellers.)
Dice rolls over time always favor the NPCs. Because you may only shoot at a given NPC a handful of times, but over the course of a campaign, the PCs will be shot at hundreds of times. That math always favors the NPCs. Therefore, I agree. The more situations where the players can stack the deck and so not have to make rolls, is always to the PCs' benefit.
 
I am aware of no combat-trained pistol shooter that uses their pistol's sights in close combat. There is no need. It is less accurate, more time consuming, and completely kills your peripheral senses. Most shooters that I know only use sights when shooting a rifle.
Lol, know many people in the real military?
I would never set foot on a firing range with such people as you describe as "combat-trained"
 
Lol, know many people in the military?
I would never set foot on a shooting range with such people.
Yeah. Me and about 20% of ppl I still know. I have been out since '99 though. They taught Us to shoot instinctively. It is called "Point Shooting" Or was. No idea what they call it now.
 
Ahh, I have misunderstood. CQB pistol drill still involves aiming centre of mass to centre of mass. You should still attempt to make a sight picture if possible. I wouldn't/shouldn't need to be using a handgun beyond a couple of metres since that is what the rifle is for.

This is the modern version of how I was taught:


This is the closest I could find to the centre of mass to centre of mass, not sure how real it is.

 
Ahh, I have misunderstood. CQB pistol drill still involves aiming centre of mass to centre of mass. You should still attempt to make a sight picture if possible. I wouldn't/shouldn't need to be using a handgun beyond a couple of metres since that is what the rifle is for.

This is the modern version of how I was taught:


This is the closest I could find to the centre of mass to centre of mass, not sure how real it is.

I learned 2-handed shooting with a pistol this way, not the 1-handed method they are using. That may have been specific to the Isrealis.

and yeah. Anything beyond 10-meters and I will not be using a pistol, if I have a choice. :p

Also, no worries. I misunderstand all of the time... Just ask My wife...lol... (We have two different native languages as well...lol...)
 
Last edited:
The rule on dual weapons say that you can use (for example) a blade and a pistol. So, presumably, you can use a pistol in melee.

My suggestion would be that if a pistol-user is in melee, they don't get to use their "ranged combat" skill (because they're not using the sights).
BUT they can still roll 2D6 and add their dex bonus when firing the pistol. Also, the target could dodge or parry (knocking the pistol away) and not receive the minus 2 penalty for ranged weapons.
So, what skill would replace the "gun combat" (not "ranged combat") skill? Others have addressed the use/non-use of the sights. There are particular super-close engagements where the sights aren't going to get used (I posted some video in an earlier post regarding this), but it's still all training in the use of a pistol or long-arm at the end of the day.

 
Last edited:
Hey all,

I dropped off the thread for a bit due to "life" and also taking the time to attend GEN CON 24. My thinking before departing for the con was that the first step is to consolidate _all_ of the published Mongoose small unit combat rules into one volume for a comprehensive review--namely the Core Rules and The Field Catalog-- to see what's duplicative, confusing, or in conflict with one another. In other words, what's the "combat system" look like holistically as well as looking at individual components of it like AP, initiative, and what skills apply when. As I sit back down here, I still believe that's the starting point.

One topic beyond what the current system looks like is the age-old tension between realism and playability. A number of the comments here reflect that tension. I love detail but am also sensitive to keeping the game tempo up. As a ref I've wanted to keep things moving in order to keep the players from having too much time to think through all of the various actions they can do while I'm resolving the shooting between another PC and some NPCs. That's not how combat works and initiative rules don't stop players from analyzing the situation.

Beyond those thoughts here are others that I've had based on reading other comments and my own experience (for background, I started with Traveller back in '78 and still have my original base rules and box). First, the initiative rules need a relook. As someone else noted, it's literally a crapshoot right now. When it comes to combat certain characters are going to have a higher base initiative than others--a veteran Marine commando v. a one-term engineering tech in the Merchant Marine, for example. Should each PC and NPC have a baseline initiative rating assigned during character creation? See Frank Chadwick's Twilight 2000 initiative as an example.

Second, are the skills right? The original rules...wayyy back....differentiated between pistols and long-arms within the classes of slug-throwers and energy weapons. That's very realistic but...

Third, is there a need for a "quick damage" (what we have now) and a more realistic damage resolution system? At the super-grognard end of that question is the damage system from an old RPG called The Morrow Project. The AP discussion would seem to naturally fit here.

Ok, that's probably more than enough grist for the mill right now.
 
Back
Top