Travel Times in the Third Imperium
- Thread starter jscott991
- Start date
jscott991 said:
The numbers are somewhat weird, I went and checked the Rebellion Sourcebook just to make sure I didn't lead you astray, but it says conflicting dates for the news reaching Regina: 328/1116 and 342/1116, by Naval courier, or maybe it is Imperiallines TJ, seems former is the TJ, and later the Navy; Express Boat the news reaches Regina on 124/1117.
It completely rules out him influencing events.
One of the curious things about this data is that Norris (and other people not on Capital, like Margaret in particular) reacts unrealistically fast in some ways. In fact, the whole Civil War moves too fast. People react to the news almost instantly upon receipt, instead of sending further inquiries and waiting for follow-ups. It's a bit unrealistic.
Imagine a scenario where Strephon dies naturally in 1117 in the GURPS timeline and Ciencia Iphegenia decides she doesn't want to be Empress (in other words, something less dramatic than a bunch of assassinations). It would take forever to sort this out -- years frankly. How could you find Varian (on a grand tour) or Lucan to confirm them? How could they ask if Duchess Margaret would take the throne if it would take something like 2 years to send her a message and hear back?
It would be years before anyone even knew enough for a Civil War to break out, much less form a faction or respond to it. In the MT timeline, things just move too quickly if this is the speed of information.
One of the curious things about this data is that Norris (and other people not on Capital, like Margaret in particular) reacts unrealistically fast in some ways. In fact, the whole Civil War moves too fast. People react to the news almost instantly upon receipt, instead of sending further inquiries and waiting for follow-ups. It's a bit unrealistic.
Imagine a scenario where Strephon dies naturally in 1117 in the GURPS timeline and Ciencia Iphegenia decides she doesn't want to be Empress (in other words, something less dramatic than a bunch of assassinations). It would take forever to sort this out -- years frankly. How could you find Varian (on a grand tour) or Lucan to confirm them? How could they ask if Duchess Margaret would take the throne if it would take something like 2 years to send her a message and hear back?
It would be years before anyone even knew enough for a Civil War to break out, much less form a faction or respond to it. In the MT timeline, things just move too quickly if this is the speed of information.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
That's the structure of the Imperial universe. Even the first emperor knew a growing empire, stretching dozens then later hundreds of parsecs using the speed of whatever jump tech, was possible but could not last long unless governance was localized and allegiance was a system of leaders with great power and responsibility below them and fewer and fewer up to the top that each level need to directly address and command. Henceforth the nobility system. In a way, news and commands are much more efficient, including time wise, and you rely on each level to remain fairly competent and stable in emergencies.
This is why sectors and subsectors have very few worlds in the actual X-route and a lot of networking of news and goods through smaller and smaller sources such as adventurers in their scouts and free traders.
This is why sectors and subsectors have very few worlds in the actual X-route and a lot of networking of news and goods through smaller and smaller sources such as adventurers in their scouts and free traders.
jscott991 said:
The whole set up of the 3I is unrealistic. Given that NO modern country on Earth maintained a feudal set up with an powerful King/Emperor because once "Divine Right" was repudiated during the Age of Reason, these systems were then rejected by an educated populace. Thus, it flies in the face of human nature. The whole setting crumbles under even the most superficial examination by an intelligent person.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You tend to need a head of state; having a ruling family tends to eliminate destabilizing power plays.
You have to wonder how much an American style Presidential campaign would cost on an interstellar scale.
You have to wonder how much an American style Presidential campaign would cost on an interstellar scale.
Condottiere said:
Can you imagine if the Constitution were followed and no Presidential campaign were run to the populace. :lol:
Plus, you didn't understand a word I wrote. There is NOT a single hereditary Head of State on Earth (in modern countries) with any real power (UNLIKE the Emperor in the 3I). NOR, any nobility in those same countries with real power like those in the 3I :roll:
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
With eleven thousand worlds, and a substantial communications lag, the Emperor isn't going to be able to dictate the lives of every single one of his subjects. There's a substantial, or several layers thereof, buffer between him and them.
In most cases, it's like having eleven thousand clients kingdoms who give tribute, have a say in general Imperium policy, and expected to generally not upset the apple cart, while they can expect minimal Imperial interference in how they run their bailiwick.
In most cases, it's like having eleven thousand clients kingdoms who give tribute, have a say in general Imperium policy, and expected to generally not upset the apple cart, while they can expect minimal Imperial interference in how they run their bailiwick.
I don't think there's anything unrealistic about a Galactic Empire headed by a monarch. I could write on this for days (being something of a romantic monarchist and major history buff), but in his own simple way, science fiction author David Weber does a decent job talking about monarchies in the future in one of the FAQs on his website.
That being said, I don't think this particular monarchy (the Third Imperium) would work very well. Communication speeds are too slow. There aren't enough aristocrats to perform all the functions both Mongoose and GURPS describe. It's weird to layer feudal vassal obligations on top of representative governments (something that the books go out of their way to say happens).
I think the authors of the game setting fudge the communication timelines. As I said, there's no way the Civil War / Rebellion timeline makes any sense given how long it takes to get and send news to Capital from a lot of the outlying territory. Margaret alone would need something like 2-3 years to hear about Stephon's death, ask what is happening, and then react. That being the case, there's no way the whole war could wrap up in 5-6 years (1116-1122).
That being said, I don't think this particular monarchy (the Third Imperium) would work very well. Communication speeds are too slow. There aren't enough aristocrats to perform all the functions both Mongoose and GURPS describe. It's weird to layer feudal vassal obligations on top of representative governments (something that the books go out of their way to say happens).
I think the authors of the game setting fudge the communication timelines. As I said, there's no way the Civil War / Rebellion timeline makes any sense given how long it takes to get and send news to Capital from a lot of the outlying territory. Margaret alone would need something like 2-3 years to hear about Stephon's death, ask what is happening, and then react. That being the case, there's no way the whole war could wrap up in 5-6 years (1116-1122).
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
jscott991 said:
That's the same thing I thought when I first bought it. Obviously, GDW was in a rush to push a new setting on us. Make it seem like new excitement going on in the 'universe'.
jscott991 said:
I just assume that there are no worlds with governments like 1980s USA. Such a government would never follow rules or conditions set by dukes that are in orbit somewhere (or in a neighboring subsector). Only governments that kowtow would be ok with such a setup.
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
jscott991 said:
The worlds do not have feudal obligations. Those are limited to the Imperial structure. This would be parallel to modern Earth if the UN were a feudal organization in which all of the ambassadors were openly known to be double agents with agendas that vary from open trade to political pork. They care little about trade between US cities (for example) but would be concerned that trade between the US and France remained open and useful.
I suspect that is an issue with presentation in MegaTraveller as much as anything. In an attempt to provide a framework for "life during wartime" campaigns placed nearly anywhere in the Imperium, the provided Big Picture implies a lot more communication between parties than would be the case. The factional splits were probably established after only one cycle of communications, and the early battles were between those fleet elements that were close enough to be grabbed and thrown at each other.
If anything, the Civil War helps explain the Rebellion: shaky transitions on Capital bring out the power grabbers automatically. Odds are that the many Flag Emperors had no idea who was sitting on the throne when they left home to try for it themselves. Only those from the Imperial core would have any idea.
Another factor is that the Marches are the extreme for travel times from Capital at 4.5 sectors away. By comparison, Terra is three away, as is the riftward edge of Verge. That same distance barely reaches Deneb Sector when going behind the Claw. Vland, Antares, and the Gateway border are only 1.5 sectors away, and Margaret is only one sector away in Massilia.
The Rebellion's many hot zones represent local lines of communication and motive. Daibei didn't declare independence from Capital because of a long conversation between Craig and Lucan; Daibei separated because they had a full invasion to deal with from another direction when the "request" for their fleets came from Capital, and the refusal was enough to get Lucan to put a circle on the map over Daibei labelled REBEL in large red letters.
jscott991 said:
It's important to remember that the Imperium has had 1,000 years to work on the issues of timelags. Of course, a common failing in Traveller's writers is that they don't so much fudge communication lags, they ignore them. My personal belief is that the 3I itself is more believable as a structure than the existence of megacorporations. I simply cannot see how megacorporations can do business as a single entity across the Imperium except in the loosest possible definition of the term.
It's probable that there is some way to send information where it is absolutely listed as valid. It's also doubtful it's simply one ship. For instance, Margaret probably gets the news but she doesn't send some reply. She probably waits - within a few weeks another ship shows up with more information and so on and she makes her decisions based on that.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
What if the Emperor scanned his brain and created a number of duplicates of himself so he can be in multiple places at once so he could oversee the Imperium.jscott991 said:
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
There is the King of Saudi Arabia, there are the rulers of North Korea, they are hereditary it seems. Don't forget the Kingdom of Cuba and the "House of Castro".F33D said:
