Trading 'Life Support' Costs for 'Berthing Costs'

[Mithras]

Exploration into unknown territories, uninhabited worlds, scouting expeditions ... there's no-one to pay life support costs (Cr2000 per stateroom) to. So I need to ditch it. There is no cost. End of story.

But I don't want to upset the economics. So I'm pushing up berthing costs accordingly. Makes more sense to me.

I found this, a breakdown of costs published by the port of Portland in eastern Australia (port website here: http://www.portofportland.com.au/ ). Its great: https://www.bimco.org/~/media/Port_Costs/Australia/Victoria/Portland/Portland_port_charges_2010_07_01.ashx

My new costs will be: Cr1 x ship tonnage, per day *

This includes air and water clean-outs and recharges, disposal of all waste, security and passenger services. Cargo services cost extra, Cr10 per ton if the cargo is over 10 tons. Less than 10 ton you can shift the stuff yourself.

I guess PCs and other shipowners will be desperate to mitigate costs be leaving quickly, but we want players to enjoy this time on planet. I intend to do this be rolling a d6 to determine how many days various essential activities will be completed, such as:

1) finding new cargo - 1d6 days
2) finding a buyer - 1d6 days
3) finding all your new passengers - 1d6 days
4) finding a new crewman - 1d6 days
5) air+water refills and refuelling require 1 day at normal rates
6) repairs take 1 day per system (if check successful) and getting the parts will require a roll, +2 A class port, +1 B class port.

GURPS Starport is very helpful in this regard.

* I run a small ship universe, max tonnage 5,000 tons.

 

[DFW]

My new costs will be: Cr1 x ship tonnage, per day *

So, why would a 400t ship with 4 crew & no passengers have life support costs equal to a 400t ship carrying 20 people?

 

[Mithras]

My new costs will be: Cr1 x ship tonnage, per day *

So, why would a 400t ship with 4 crew & no passengers have life support costs equal to a 400t ship carrying 20 people?

The crew pay for this stuff themselves, and it amounts to food. ie. a scout ship crew can carry extra food in its cargo hold, even buy or scavenge food. It can collect fresh water on worlds and scoop fuel, it can recharge its air on a world. For free. No starport needed. It just keeps going.

A civillian or military crew at a starport will need to purchase food for their passengers and crew from ship services.

 

[DFW]

The crew pay for this stuff themselves, and it amounts to food. ie. a scout ship crew can carry extra food in its cargo hold, even buy or scavenge food. It can collect fresh water on worlds and scoop fuel, it can recharge its air on a world. For free. No starport needed. It just keeps going.

A civillian or military crew a a starport will need to purchase food for their passengers and crew from ship services.

You didn't actually address my question.

 

[Mithras]

My new costs will be: Cr1 x ship tonnage, per day *

So, why would a 400t ship with 4 crew & no passengers have life support costs equal to a 400t ship carrying 20 people?

(Answering DFW's question) There are no life support costs IMTU. They are berthing costs.

 

[DFW]

(Answering DFW's question) There are no life support costs IMTU. They are berthing costs.

Cool. I was thrown by the link you posted that had consumables costs listed.

 

[simonh]

This does seem wrong. According to this the cost of supplying a cruise liner will be the same as that for supplying a freighter or tanker. Surely basic maintenance is already covered in the annual charges.

As for wilderness travel, I assume they just consume more of the stored provisions. Starships are going to have to carry extra supplies to cover extended periods due to emergencies and accidents so you just end up having to replace more of them later.

Simon Hibbs

 

[DFW]

This does seem wrong. According to this the cost of supplying a cruise liner will be the same as that for supplying a freighter or tanker. Surely basic maintenance is already covered in the annual charges.

As for wilderness travel, I assume they just consume more of the stored provisions. Starships are going to have to carry extra supplies to cover extended periods due to emergencies and accidents so you just end up having to replace more of them later.

Simon Hibbs

The one thing I change from the MGT rules is that costs are per person and not per stateroom. No additional food, air, etc. is consumed by having an unoccupied stateroom.

 

[simonh]

(Answering DFW's question) There are no life support costs IMTU. They are berthing costs.

How does that work. Do the passengers and crew have to pay for their own food, drinks, air, water, cleaning, etc.

Simon Hibbs

 

[simonh]

The one thing I change from the MGT rules is that costs are per person and not per stateroom. No additional food, air, etc. is consumed by having an unoccupied stateroom.

That's a good point actualy. It also solves the problem when you have double occupancy as well.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Mithras]

This does seem wrong. According to this the cost of supplying a cruise liner will be the same as that for supplying a freighter or tanker. Surely basic maintenance is already covered in the annual charges.

I thought annual maintenance was just that, once per year. The repairs I mention are those for repairing damaged systems. A big liner will have to pay its berthing cost, flushing air and water varying with hull size, then purchase food-stuffs separately (no idea about that yet).

As for wilderness travel, I assume they just consume more of the stored provisions. Starships are going to have to carry extra supplies to cover extended periods due to emergencies and accidents so you just end up having to replace more of them later.

I've been on many threads before about the Cr2000 per stateroom life support cost, and I've never been convinced by it, what is it besides food? And what do exploration ships do away from starports?

My idea then, is just to pay for berthing, pay for food separately, and ditch the ambiguous Life Support cost.

 

[DFW]

A big liner will have to pay its berthing cost, flushing air and water varying with hull size,

Actually, the size of the hull is a distant secondary variable in that equation. Number of people is a better determinant.

 

[phavoc]

There is an inherent cost in opearing the life support equipment (filters, spares, etc) that would be borne by the ship.

Middle-class passengers would probably get the same sort of food the crew gets. Still fresh (or somewhat), hot and palatable. Bad food on long voyages is just a bad idea. High-class passengers would (or should) get much higher quality food/drink. Therefore their support costs would be different than others.

Traveller has always tended to be quite simplistic in how they calculate some costs. This would be one of those.

 

[Mithras]

Food costs I've not gotten around to. Big liners will pay ship services fpr great food options, free trader stewards may go dirtside and buy fresh-food with which to stock the galley.

 

[Mithras]

A big liner will have to pay its berthing cost, flushing air and water varying with hull size,

Actually, the size of the hull is a distant secondary variable in that equation. Number of people is a better determinant.

I don't want to get too 'accounty'. I'd really prefer a fee that is simple and generally 'in the ball park'.

 

[simonh]

If just provisioning one crewman with decent food drink and snacks costs Cr20 per day, that's Cr600 per month just there. Then there's sanitary supplies, cleaning and disinfectant products, perishable medical supplies, replaceable air filters, oxygen refills, materials expended on periodic flushing of the recycling systems. Then there's wear and tear replacement of flooring, furnishings, bedding and utensils plus replacement of single-use utensils. Don't forget replacement or update of entertainment media.

It's also possible some longer term costs are amortised into the per-month cost such as periodic redecorating of staterooms and living spaces, plus replacement or update of exercise equipment.

None of those costs are incurred by cargo space. Cr2,000 per month is IMHO at least ballpark.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Mithras]

I'm trying to find excuses not to have life support costs ... !

If just provisioning one crewman with decent food drink and snacks costs Cr20 per day, that's Cr600 per month just there. Then there's sanitary supplies, cleaning and disinfectant products, perishable medical supplies, replaceable air filters, oxygen refills, materials expended on periodic flushing of the recycling systems. Then there's wear and tear replacement of flooring, furnishings, bedding and utensils plus replacement of single-use utensils. Don't forget replacement or update of entertainment media.

It's also possible some longer term costs are amortised into the per-month cost such as periodic redecorating of staterooms and living spaces, plus replacement or update of exercise equipment.

None of those costs are incurred by cargo space. Cr2,000 per month is IMHO at least ballpark.

Simon Hibbs

 

[simonh]

I'm trying to find excuses not to have life support costs ... !

Costs are good. As GMs we like costs.

They mean we can be generous and give our players lots of money when they complete scenarios, then watch that cash drain away remorselessly so they have to go out and take on ever more dangerous and ill-conceived get rich qui... er, I mean adventures.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Mithras]

I'm trying to find excuses not to have life support costs ... !

Costs are good. As GMs we like costs.

They mean we can be generous and give our players lots of money when they complete scenarios, then watch that cash drain away remorselessly so they have to go out and take on ever more dangerous and ill-conceived get rich qui... er, I mean adventures.

Simon Hibbs

Very true Say I kept the life support costs then...how would you deal with scout ships exploring an uninhabited or uncivilised subsector without resupply?

 

[BP]

IMTU I don't use 'fixed expenses'. As regards filters and routine maintenance - that is about personnel time, the costs are incidental and embedded in annual outfitting expenses.

Most systems are minimal maintenance and self cleaning/repairing - life support is mission critical, yet so common place it would be routine and far superior to say 1940's submarine tech.

Consumables are by person (wastes are incinerated and sanitary and other life support systems depend on recycling - with annual replenishments).

Not to say I don't take advantage of failures and such

As to independent scouts - they would carry plenty of spares and talent.