TL 16 Starships
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
BP said:
atpollard said:
Yep, at TL 16, Antimatter drives would be prototype style drives - hence the mention of 'antimatter prototypes' in the original post. (Hey - that advanced culture needs some element of danger!)AndrewW said:
HG p 53 states 'Fusion power ... remains in use until TL15.... is possible to use more primitive or advanced power plants.', with the previous page stating 'Most technologies are developed one or more technology levels before they become common...'
HG p 63 is in reference to Capital Ships - proposal was for a 200 dT Military Scout Ship (TL 16).
The rules are a bit spread out and seemingly convoluted - such as no size penalties for Anti-matter prototypes (while other systems and even earlier TL power plants have such) - but that is handled by the ' reliable and safe use' clause.
My take on 'reflect' is that it is meant to counter weapons damage - so it does not reflect all wavelengths/energy/power densities - just the relevant ones (quite plausible).
Stealth option can thus be used to filter the detection spectrum of sensor systems that is allowed to pass thru the reflect.
Of course, these are 'standard' counter-technologies and thus not perfect - they are designed to counter only other 'standard' technologies. This means, that an opponent would likely change their tech (or a player might shift frequencies/power spectrum of sensors with a reduced range).
Stealth option can thus be used to filter the detection spectrum of sensor systems that is allowed to pass thru the reflect.
Of course, these are 'standard' counter-technologies and thus not perfect - they are designed to counter only other 'standard' technologies. This means, that an opponent would likely change their tech (or a player might shift frequencies/power spectrum of sensors with a reduced range).
First some thoughts on Lasers:
It seems to me that ultimately, all lasers/masers are thermal rather than kinetic weapons.
Would anyone argue that it is the mass and velocity of the photon punching thru the hull that causes the damage rather than the massive concentration of heat melting the target?
I have some experience in chemical methods of thermal protection. There exists a plastic coating that expands into a thick (5+ mm) insulating blanket when exposed to heat and will allow a painted wood stair to survive exposure to the flame from a 4” gas jet for literally hours and hours. Certain ceramics (like the space shuttle tiles) can withstand very high temperatures, conduct the heat over a larger area and quickly dissipate that heat.
Sandcasters already do (however they do it) what the reflec armor is described as doing (blocks lasers from inflicting damage).
In real world terms, reflec may be a coating that reacts with incoming laser fire to disperse the concentrated laser beam over a broader area, expands to insulate the hull underneath and re-radiates the thermal energy away from the ship.
In game mechanics terms, it is a fine (or not so fine) coating of ‘sandcaster dust’ applied directly to the hull rather than floating as a cloud in space.
However, I agree that it is probably not a chrome plated starship, thus I believe that ‘reflec’ may be something of a misnomer – more functionally descriptive than literal.
Some thoughts on Stealth:
One method of achieving stealth is to reflect the radar (or other wavelength) pulse anywhere but back to the sender. This would make the ship no more vulnerable to an energy weapon than any other.
Another method of achieving stealth is to trap the radar (or other wavelength) pulse inside the ship. On the Macro scale, this is done with a ‘transparent’ outer skin and a carefully designed internal structure. On the micro-scale this might be possible with an internal crystal structure.
A third method of achieving stealth is to select a covering that matches the background signature. The plastic covers for tank machineguns blend in with the IR signature of the typical forest/dessert background to disguise their IR signature.
A fourth method is to chemically react with the incoming beam to absorb it and reradiate it at a different wavelength – thus whatever wavelength the attacker broadcasts on, the stealth craft reflects any wavelength except that one.
Since there is nothing inherent in any of these methods to suggest that they would resist damage from a powerful energy beam (like a laser) better than any other material, I agree that MIXING reflec ‘paint’ and ‘stealth’ paint is probably not practical (Although it may very well be possible to create a completely new coating (reflec-stealth) that provided both stealth and reflec qualities at a higher TL than either simple coating.)
Combining Stealth and Reflec:
If the stealth option is also a coating (in this case an anti-detection coating) then we can (for purposes of discussion) view it as a ‘magic black paint’. If one were to coat the ship’s hull in glittery, thermal reactive, sandcaster-dust, reflec paint and then add an outer coat of ‘magic black paint’ then the ship would be difficult to detect at range and, once detected, the targeting laser might have trouble getting and keeping a lock (thus degrading aiming accuracy). However, when hit by a laser weapon, the ‘magic black paint’ would vaporize in an instant. At this point, the sandcaster-dust in the reflec coating would do what it does best, absorb, insulate, disperse and re-radiate the energy. The 50 meter ship now has a 15-30 cm reflec bubble with the stealth coating burned away – battle damage needing repair. However, good luck finding a 30 cm non-stealth coated object at 10,000+ km.
Just my thoughts, YMMV.
It seems to me that ultimately, all lasers/masers are thermal rather than kinetic weapons.
Would anyone argue that it is the mass and velocity of the photon punching thru the hull that causes the damage rather than the massive concentration of heat melting the target?
I have some experience in chemical methods of thermal protection. There exists a plastic coating that expands into a thick (5+ mm) insulating blanket when exposed to heat and will allow a painted wood stair to survive exposure to the flame from a 4” gas jet for literally hours and hours. Certain ceramics (like the space shuttle tiles) can withstand very high temperatures, conduct the heat over a larger area and quickly dissipate that heat.
Sandcasters already do (however they do it) what the reflec armor is described as doing (blocks lasers from inflicting damage).
In real world terms, reflec may be a coating that reacts with incoming laser fire to disperse the concentrated laser beam over a broader area, expands to insulate the hull underneath and re-radiates the thermal energy away from the ship.
In game mechanics terms, it is a fine (or not so fine) coating of ‘sandcaster dust’ applied directly to the hull rather than floating as a cloud in space.
However, I agree that it is probably not a chrome plated starship, thus I believe that ‘reflec’ may be something of a misnomer – more functionally descriptive than literal.
Some thoughts on Stealth:
One method of achieving stealth is to reflect the radar (or other wavelength) pulse anywhere but back to the sender. This would make the ship no more vulnerable to an energy weapon than any other.
Another method of achieving stealth is to trap the radar (or other wavelength) pulse inside the ship. On the Macro scale, this is done with a ‘transparent’ outer skin and a carefully designed internal structure. On the micro-scale this might be possible with an internal crystal structure.
A third method of achieving stealth is to select a covering that matches the background signature. The plastic covers for tank machineguns blend in with the IR signature of the typical forest/dessert background to disguise their IR signature.
A fourth method is to chemically react with the incoming beam to absorb it and reradiate it at a different wavelength – thus whatever wavelength the attacker broadcasts on, the stealth craft reflects any wavelength except that one.
Since there is nothing inherent in any of these methods to suggest that they would resist damage from a powerful energy beam (like a laser) better than any other material, I agree that MIXING reflec ‘paint’ and ‘stealth’ paint is probably not practical (Although it may very well be possible to create a completely new coating (reflec-stealth) that provided both stealth and reflec qualities at a higher TL than either simple coating.)
Combining Stealth and Reflec:
If the stealth option is also a coating (in this case an anti-detection coating) then we can (for purposes of discussion) view it as a ‘magic black paint’. If one were to coat the ship’s hull in glittery, thermal reactive, sandcaster-dust, reflec paint and then add an outer coat of ‘magic black paint’ then the ship would be difficult to detect at range and, once detected, the targeting laser might have trouble getting and keeping a lock (thus degrading aiming accuracy). However, when hit by a laser weapon, the ‘magic black paint’ would vaporize in an instant. At this point, the sandcaster-dust in the reflec coating would do what it does best, absorb, insulate, disperse and re-radiate the energy. The 50 meter ship now has a 15-30 cm reflec bubble with the stealth coating burned away – battle damage needing repair. However, good luck finding a 30 cm non-stealth coated object at 10,000+ km.
Just my thoughts, YMMV.
Wavelength is only one aspect, and reflect does not handle all forms of radiation (based on rules) - so there would be a definable range and tech would not need to reflect under all conditions, just those that pose a threat of damage. I.e., only under certain energy densities may the material transition such that its 'reflection' properties are effective (Reflect is TL A, IIRC).rust said:
Analogy-wise, think about the way a laser works regarding 'population inversion'.
far-trader
Mongoose
Not to belabour the points overmuch, but:
Reflec is certainly in the game not misnamed and in fact IS a perfect mirror reflecting surface. Renaming it, reimagining it as something else, to make it work is one option but then we are at square zero imo since I can rename and reimagine the couter tech as well. Much of what is described above as alternative tech sounds more like ablative armour.
Stealth is also a grand fiction in the same way. There really is no stealth in space, no matter how you want to describe the technology with our current understanding. It won't work. Period. About the only way for stealth to work in space is for it to involve access to another dimension that doesn't radiate back into this one.
Which is not to say I want to give up either "technology" (aka magic handwave) in the game.
That's the key. It is a game. Game choices typically come as trade-offs. Pick A or B not both. In this case the game choice clearly seems to be intended to be pick Reflec or Stealth, not both, they are counter to each other.
Traveller actually does have a technology that describes a workable stealth system imo. And it does work by using an alternate dimension. The Black Globe. If anything the Stealth coating for space craft must be a very low level application of the same technology. But I'd prefer to simply keep it at the black box level to avoid being painted into a corner on the workings. Most players won't be overly concerned with how it works, just that it gives them the DM in combat.
Reflec is certainly in the game not misnamed and in fact IS a perfect mirror reflecting surface. Renaming it, reimagining it as something else, to make it work is one option but then we are at square zero imo since I can rename and reimagine the couter tech as well. Much of what is described above as alternative tech sounds more like ablative armour.
Stealth is also a grand fiction in the same way. There really is no stealth in space, no matter how you want to describe the technology with our current understanding. It won't work. Period. About the only way for stealth to work in space is for it to involve access to another dimension that doesn't radiate back into this one.
Which is not to say I want to give up either "technology" (aka magic handwave) in the game.
That's the key. It is a game. Game choices typically come as trade-offs. Pick A or B not both. In this case the game choice clearly seems to be intended to be pick Reflec or Stealth, not both, they are counter to each other.
Traveller actually does have a technology that describes a workable stealth system imo. And it does work by using an alternate dimension. The Black Globe. If anything the Stealth coating for space craft must be a very low level application of the same technology. But I'd prefer to simply keep it at the black box level to avoid being painted into a corner on the workings. Most players won't be overly concerned with how it works, just that it gives them the DM in combat.
Where is that written in MgT?far-trader said:
From Core, Personal reflec armour is described as layers of reflective material and heat-dispersing gel while starship reflec is described simply as a coating on the hull that increases the ship's armour against lasers.
CSC goes on to state personal reflec 'is worn under other clothing'.
Other traveller editions may (and probably do vary), but Mongoose doesn't seem to have this definition.
And the source of this?
Black Globes require capacitors to 'shunt' what they 'absorb', so I'm not seeing this.
Also they are not a good form of stealth in one very basic sense - they leave a hole.
far-trader said:
Then shouldn't a White Starship (which reflects about 90% of light) take about 1/10 the damage from a laser compared to a Hunter Green Starship (which reflects less than 10% of light)?
That was the only issue that I had with imagining the 'chrome starship' literal view of reflective armor.
far-trader said:
While a robotic "death star" makes perfect sense given the initial goal of zero crew loss and unlimited funds (which was part of somebody else's original premise), I was personally aiming for something closer to ships of (up to) an order of magnitude more expensive than a comparable sized 'official' design with a 50/50 chance to win against 10 to 1 odds. I have no idea if it is an obtainable goal, but that was my personal 'wish list'. (It reminded me of the F-22 'quality' over 'quantity' argument.)
The problem with too much robotics is, IMHO, a loss of 'fun factor'.
YMMV.
It would depend on the wavelength used by the laser, material which doesatpollard said:
reflect visible light well does not necessarily reflect other wavelengths as
well - which, as mentioned, is my problem with Reflec, because a surface
able to reflect infrared as well as x-ray is just another bit of magic which
is beyond my imagination. And redefining the meaning of "reflective" in
the description "reflective material on a plastic base" does not really help
much.
Ah, well, we already have gravitics and jump drives and all that, so one
more use of handwavium will hardly hurt. :wink:
far-trader
Mongoose
BP said:
That right there. Perhaps the "perfect mirror" description was an over-simplification. The fact is even with most of the laser reflected, say 99% (not quite perfect then ok) that still leaves a lot of nearly instant local heating to disperse. Hence the gel layers.
BP said:
Which would be what if not a mirror coating? With a name like Reflec? I suppose I should also clarify these are not simple silvered glass mirrors? That the use of the term "mirror" here means reflective for the energy involved?
BP said:
And this factors how? The laser burns through your clothing and then hits the Reflec layer, is bounced back (makes one wonder about splash damage to adjacent targets... ) and the residual heat handled by the gel layer. Hope your clothing doesn't catch fire too.
BP said:
What's the connection between the globe itself and the capacitors? It's a field effect. And the energy the capacitors are tasked with seems small compared to the energy coming in at any time. So (imo at least) the bulk of the energy striking the globe is shunted elsewhere (jumpspace imtu) while what the capacitors are required to deal with is the minimal amount left over (the feedback if you like) from simply keeping the field up.
BP said:Also they are not a good form of stealth in one very basic sense - they leave a hole.
lol
It's a hole that is vastly less detectable than the heat of the starship itself though, which in reality will stand out like a beacon in the darkness. As described it is a nearly perfect stealth cloak. To "see" it you have to note an occlusion of something behind it. In the vastness of space with the distances and sparseness of objects involved you'll have to be lucky, and just happen to be looking in the right place at the right time. And if you can continue the lucky streak you might even be able to note it fast enough to track it and plot a vector.What's magic? One 'layer' reflects IR and transmits x-ray, the next reflects x-ray...rust said:
Indubitably. :lol:rust said:
One of the reasons I loved CT and never got into any other version is its lack of detailed 'descriptions' of fictional aspects (and this mostly as I only ever had the first six books and a few odd ones).
far-trader
Mongoose
BP said:What's magic? One 'layer' reflects IR and transmits x-ray, the next reflects x-ray...rust said:
I'll buy that
(...but as you note the more you explain, the more you paint yourself into a corner )rust said:
As a practical matter, Weapons and Defences against them tend to be developed in pairs. If the Bad Guys build IR lasers, then the Good Guys will develop IR reflective armor. This will cause the Bad Guys to start working on Microwave Lasers (which ignore IR Reflective Armor) causing the Good Guys to create Microwave Reflective Armor.
From the little I understand about Lasers, it is unlikely that any particular laser will be able to produce a beam across a broad range of wavelengths, so for any pair of combatant empires, there will probably be a fairly narrow range of lasers in actual use with Armor designed to offer some protection against as much of that operable range as can be achieved.
It should also be pointed out that reflec is hardly an 'immunity' from lasers, it is just a couple of extra points of protection vs lasers costing as much as thirty of points of real armor (without the bulk).
