TL 16 Starships

[atpollard]

Since someone raised an interesting question but deleted the heading, and others seem interested in discussing it, let’s try again ...

GIVEN:
* a pocket empire with TL 15 civilian ships and TL 16 Military ships
* an intended ship life of 100 years
....(Financing = 1/600 for 1200 months?)
* an insistence on qualitative over numerical superiority
* a fanatic aversion to loss of crew
....(lets assume a low natural birth rate with 250 year life expectancy)
* money is not to be a limiting factor
....(assume a rich world with very lucrative trade)
* Typically outnumbered 4:1 (?) in combat.

THEREFORE:
Let’s discuss design options (within the official rules or justify a house rule) and design some ships.

[FEEL FREE TO CHIME IN ON THE “GIVENS” IF YOU THINK THAT I MISSED SOME IMPORTANT PART.]

 

[atpollard]

Let me propose a 200 dT Military Scout Ship (TL 16).
Hopefully, the double size scout will allow some room for fun upgrades and options.

Base Hull = +200 dT = +8 Mcr
+Streamlined = -0 dT = +0.8 MCr
+Bonded Superdense Armor 16 = -26.7 dT = +10.7 MCr
+Reflec = -0 dT = +20 MCr
+Self Sealing = -0 dT = +20 MCr
+Stealth = -0 dT = +20 MCr
+Radiation Shielding = -0 dT = +50 MCr
+TL 16 Hull = -0 dT = +8 MCr
+Aerofins = -10 dT = +1 MCr


TL 16 SCOUT SHIP (200 dT)
FINAL HULL (-36.7 dT; 138.5 MCr)
Remaining space = 163.3 dT

Statistics and Benefits
16 points of armor
+3 Armor (19) vs Lasers (reflec)
-4 DM on Sensor rolls (stealth)
-1000 rads crew exposure (Rad Shield)
+6 Armor (22) vs Radiation Damage (Rad Shield)
Hull Points = 8 (Adv TL)
Structure Points = 8 (Adv TL)
+2 Pilot skill in Atmosphere (Aerofin)


So, any thoughts on the hull?
Did I miss anything or should anything I included be removed?

High Guard, pg 52:
There is a 5% price discount per TL for older technology devices
if bought new at the source, to a maximum of –30%. For example,
a character buying a new TL8 engine at a TL10 world gets a 10%
discount.

Should the hull options (like Reflec) get a TL discount?

Any thoughts on MD/JD performance (since JD Fuel will eat a lot of tonnage)?
Any suggestions on Weapons?

 

[DFW]

I think it would help if you listed the changes in ship design rules that happen going from TL 16 from TL 15?

 

[BP]

Just to mention - CSC has various TL 16 and TL related rules...

You might want to consider: black globes, tractors, 'advanced' lasers, sandcasters effective against particle beams, and antimatter prototypes.

 

[DFW]

Just to mention - CSC has various TL 16 and TL related rules...

You might want to consider: black globes, tractors, 'advanced' lasers, sandcasters effective against particle beams, and antimatter prototypes.

CSC?

Sorry, maybe I need more coffee.

 

[atpollard]

CSC = Central Supply Catalog

The big book of stuff (which I havn't read yet, myself).

 

[atpollard]

I think it would help if you listed the changes in ship design rules that happen going to TL 16 from TL 15?

I know of no specific TL 16 equipment or rules (from memory) but generally:

maximum Armor = TL
Incremental cost reductions based on TL
Hull Str vs TL.
Weapon upgrades per TL
Smaller Drives per TL
25% Smaller PP at TL 15+

I looked up everything that I could find on Hulls just to get it started.
It is basically the same as a TL 15 ship only with one extra ‘per TL’ bonus.

So what are your thoughts about the desired performance for our scout?
M2, J2 x 2 (like the classic Scout)?
M4, J4 like typical warship?

 

[BP]

Given the 4:1 thing, a higher rated M-Drive. (And probably a black globe).

Fusion P.P. are 'done' by TL-15, so Anti-matter P.P. ('covered' in Core) - freeing some fuel space in lieu of the larger drive (no TL benefit).

Given larger hulled scout, higher J rating.

 

[simonh]

A ship with both reflec armour and stealth options just doesn't sound right, although I don't think there's anything in the rules to prevent it.

As I se it there are two ways to approach TL 16. One is that it's just another TL. The world generation rules allow the creation of worlds with much higher tech levels than 16, so just treat them as being no more of a step up than any of the other tech levels.

An alternative approach is to assume that for some reason TL 15 is a plateau in technological capability that it's very hard to get past. After all the 2 or 3 tech levels leading up to TL 15 don't really introduce much that's new. Maybe TL 15 is the limit to how far these technologies can be improved without further major breakthroughs and these breakthroughs are very tough to achieve.

Having said that, I haven't seen CSC so I don't know what it says about TL16+. I'm going on a possibly outdated view on tech levels born of older Traveller editions.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Dave Chase]

A ship with both reflec armour and stealth options just doesn't sound right, although I don't think there's anything in the rules to prevent it.
...
Simon Hibbs

At the lower TL's it cost more and there is some additional weight involved.

At TL 14 and higher, I would say it would only cost more.

A reflec armour could be one that is physically induced via 'electric current' or material changing shape/color.

Each TL above 15 it is more effective in doing both.
At TL 17 and higher it is considered standard to have Reflec/Stealth armour on Military/Scout ships.

Dave Chase

 

[AndrewW]

A ship with both reflec armour and stealth options just doesn't sound right, although I don't think there's anything in the rules to prevent it.

The rules don't cover if more then one coating can be applied to the same hull or not...

 

[DFW]

So what are your thoughts about the desired performance for our scout?
M2, J2 x 2 (like the classic Scout)?
M4, J4 like typical warship?

I like the J2 x 2. (I did a 100t TL 15 scout like that.

Personally, I think Reflect should have the TL cost reduction.

Drop the Aerofins as streamlined you have no penalties and losing 10 tons isn't worth the bonus for the remote possibility that you'll really need it.

 

[atpollard]

A ship with both reflec armour and stealth options just doesn't sound right, although I don't think there's anything in the rules to prevent it.

The rules don't cover if more then one coating can be applied to the same hull or not...

... but the description for several upgrades specificly mention that option can only be taken once. This implies that at least some other options could be taken more than once. Or possibly that more than one option could be taken. [I know, it is a weak argument.]

... or a better argument would be to point out that a TL 7-8 space capsule to Mars would want and need both (deep space) Radiation Shielding and a (re-entry) Heat Shield (or alternately, the SR 71 spy plane had both Heat Shielding and Stealth). Since Real-life craft can have more than one option, it only makes sense that other Traveller spacecraft should be able to have multiple options.

[And it wouldn't have killed them to explicitly state one way or the other ... perhaps for the next printing].

 

[atpollard]

Fusion P.P. are 'done' by TL-15, so Anti-matter P.P. ('covered' in Core) - freeing some fuel space in lieu of the larger drive (no TL benefit).

I am familiar with where the Anti-matter PP is presented in the core book, but where does it discuss that it is available at TL 16?

(or were you simply offering an IMTU/ 'house rule' suggestion?)

 

[atpollard]

Drop the Aerofins as streamlined you have no penalties and losing 10 tons isn't worth the bonus for the remote possibility that you'll really need it.

That was one that I wondered about as well.

For any starship but a scout I would have never concidered aerofins, but I thought that a scout might need to sneak closer than is prudent for a better look and a Starship vs Interceptors in an atmosphere can use all the help it can get.

But I think that I agree with you; the 10 dTons could be better spent.

 

[far-trader]

A ship with both reflec armour and stealth options just doesn't sound right, although I don't think there's anything in the rules to prevent it.

I have to side with simonh on this, perhaps the rules need clarification but I think it's pretty logical that the two can't be applied to the same surface. Look at it this way:

Reflec defeats lasers by reflecting them, we'll take that at face value.

Stealth defeats detection and targeting locks, again taken at face value.

Now, do detection and target ranging sensors not include lasers? Like Lidar? Indeed they do.

So if you're protected from lasers by Reflec you're not going to also be able to beat laser detection (just part of the suite) with Stealth. In fact I'd make a case for Reflec coated armour being easier to detect

And likewise Stealth coated armour should be subject to more damage from lasers.

 

[AndrewW]

A ship with both reflec armour and stealth options just doesn't sound right, although I don't think there's anything in the rules to prevent it.

I have to side with simonh on this, perhaps the rules need clarification but I think it's pretty logical that the two can't be applied to the same surface. Look at it this way:

Reflec defeats lasers by reflecting them, we'll take that at face value.

Stealth defeats detection and targeting locks, again taken at face value.

Now, do detection and target ranging sensors not include lasers? Like Lidar? Indeed they do.

So if you're protected from lasers by Reflec you're not going to also be able to beat laser detection (just part of the suite) with Stealth. In fact I'd make a case for Reflec coated armour being easier to detect

On the other hand the reflect could deflect the laser energy away from the receiver so the beam never bounces back to the originating ship.

 

[AndrewW]

Fusion P.P. are 'done' by TL-15, so Anti-matter P.P. ('covered' in Core) - freeing some fuel space in lieu of the larger drive (no TL benefit).

I am familiar with where the Anti-matter PP is presented in the core book, but where does it discuss that it is available at TL 16?

(or were you simply offering an IMTU/ 'house rule' suggestion?)

Antimatter plants are the same size and are only available from TL 17.

The benchmark for the beginning of the Advanced Stellar period, which begings at TL 17, is the development of a workable antimatter power plant. Antimatter systems are available at earlier Tech Levels but TL 17 marks the beginnings of reliable and safe use.

 

[far-trader]

OK, for the givens let's start with Advanced Escape Pods for every workstation...

...actually, scratch that. Why are we putting our blood on the line!?

Robotic combat vessels controlled remotely by stealthy ships with all the shields and screens possible. Lot's of small killers controlled by a single remote crewed mothership.

And since money is not an object when I say small killers I of course mean multi-kilo-ton jump capable ships gunned to the gills with some autonomous capability so they can function before the mothership arrives, and after it has safely jumped out again. That's no problem with our cutting edge 9K series heuristically programmed algorithmic computers. Thank goodness we didn't contract the job to the other outfit with their positronic brains and hardwired passive three rules programming philosophy...

... and so was born the first Berserker fleet :twisted:

 

[simonh]

On the other hand the reflect could deflect the laser energy away from the receiver so the beam never bounces back to the originating ship.

I must say I'm not a big fan of the concept of reflec armour in general, because I really can't see how it could be designed without making the ship massively more detectable - after all the while point is that you're deliberately, massively increasing the ship's radiation signature which is never a good idea for a military ship. Ok you might be able to deflect the radiation to the sides, but then sensors somewhere else will see you light up, so any kind of decent sensor grid is going to pinpoint you pretty easily.

That's a general point on reflec though. To accept that reflec is a sensible design choice means assuming that there are ways round this issue. In the end the important thing is that it's an anti-laser coating rather than fine details of how it works.

On consideration I think it may be reasonable to suppose that at more advanced TLs than ours there may be ways to design a hull to achieve both effects. I think a combination effect like this should be more technically challenging and expensive than ether option on their own, but it's not worth messing with the rules on a minor point like this.

I think I have a valid point, but that point is based on current technology and this is one of those areas where I can't put my hand on my heart and say such limitations can never be resolved. Objection withdrawn.

Simon Hibbs