TL 14 Collectors In High Guard

[Nerhesi]

This post is no way intended to indicate that this was a good or not-so-good move. Just informing you of the decisions/directions we worked with

Thanks, that's something at least.

Though I'm kinda starting to wonder what they're playing at with MGT and T5. T5 has a lot of issues (and still is undergoing significant editing) and yet MGT has to adhere to it even though those may not be finalised?

Np! While I did try to push things in a certain direction (passionately at times), I can appreciate the need to have "consistency of cannon" for the 3I universe regardless of the underlying system (T5 vs MgT2). Collectors was something I think several of us pushed for to be labelled as "high/alternate tech" - as everything else is pretty much 3I cannon by definition. You will note that in T5, Collectors are limited to powering only Jump-1 drives at TL14, and Jump-2 drives at TL15. That constraint is critical, in my honest opinion, to their impact on the 3I universe.

I still think the impact may be tremendous for particular trading/freight companies, and then also significant to smaller-empires as their SDBs are actually now mobile colonial defense fleets, but probably less of an overall impact to Zhodani/Aslan/Imperial/Hiver/etc Fleets

 

[-Daniel-]

Though I'm kinda starting to wonder what they're playing at with MGT and T5. T5 has a lot of issues (and still is undergoing significant editing) and yet MGT has to adhere to it even though those may not be finalised? I don't really get what the relationship between them is supposed to be given that MGT went more its own way previously.

And thus why you are struggling so hard. Truth is, despite being reluctant to admit it, the frustration you often vent is your frustration. Not "people" or "all of us" but rather fusor's unhappiness. The failure to understand the mish-mash that Traveller has become over the years is the real core of your frustration. You seem to be trying to treat Traveller the way you can treat a RPG that has always been with one publisher and only working under one vision. Too bad really because your desire would be grand, I just don't ever seeing it being real.

 

[Nerhesi]

I think it should be pointed out, just to be fair, the changes being discussed here are not due to another publisher coming along (Mongoose) and changing canon from what Marc wanted - they're actually the opposite in this case. It was the authoritative source on canon attempting to ensure consistency between publishers and game versions.

Why we are seeing people wonder about it is because MgT1 was pretty much Classic Traveller, while T5 adopted some fairly recent things and made some canon updates (resulting in significant changes from Classic/MgT1 guidelines). Therefore, when MgT2 came along, there was direction to ensure it aligned to the up-to-date canon. Now this causes "Whoah! Canon changes in MgT2!!!!" - but actually, it was "Canon alignment in MgT2".

 

[fusor]

And thus why you are struggling so hard. Truth is, despite being reluctant to admit it, the frustration you often vent is your frustration. Not "people" or "all of us" but rather fusor's unhappiness. The failure to understand the mish-mash that Traveller has become over the years is the real core of your frustration. You seem to be trying to treat Traveller the way you can treat a RPG that has always been with one publisher and only working under one vision. Too bad really because your desire would be grand, I just don't ever seeing it being real.

Oh I'm fully aware of the game's history. Maybe it's better to just screw any kind of unified canon and just have a definitive canon for each edition of the game. But even that entails strictly defining what is and what isn't part of the 3I within that edition.

 

[fusor]

I think it should be pointed out, just to be fair, the changes being discussed here are not due to another publisher coming along (Mongoose) and changing canon from what Marc wanted - they're actually the opposite in this case. It was the authoritative source on canon attempting to ensure consistency between publishers and game versions.

So who was that source? Was it Marc, or someone else? (DonM?) And how can it ensure consistency when it's changing what's been done in previous editions? Or is the only consistency that matters now "MGT vs T5"?

 

[-Daniel-]

Maybe it's better to just screw any kind of unified canon and just have a definitive canon for each edition of the game. But even that entails strictly defining what is and what isn't part of the 3I within that edition.

I have often thought about that. A product focused on the 3I as defined by ____________. (fill in your favorite edition). Wouldn't that be nice.

 

[-Daniel-]

Therefore, when MgT2 came along, there was direction to ensure it aligned to the up-to-date canon. Now this causes "Whoah! Canon changes in MgT2!!!!" - but actually, it was "Canon alignment in MgT2".

Good point for the T5 vs MgT2. But many other conflicting visions are included in the mix. Different GDW editions, as well as 3rd party editions. But you are right, in some areas Mongoose were asked to conform to the T5 vision.

 

[Nerhesi]

I dont think it's important to finger who gave what direction. When I asked for my own benefit if T5 (and now MgT2) had established some "changes" as "canon" - I was informed that some of these things have been in place in previous version as well (so post Classic Traveller, but pre-T5).

PS If i'm not mistaken, DonM passed away earlier this year, months prior to the finalization of HG2.

 

[-Daniel-]

I dont think it's important to finger who gave what direction.

True. Knowing the specific person(s) isn't going to change things. What is important though is to admit any attempt to reconcile the various editions to make them consistent will result in failure as they each have elements that may or may not agree with other editions. Once that has been admitted, then a particular GM, like myself, can move past the inconsistent issues and move forward with having fun. Which I believe is the real goal of a game. :mrgreen:

 

[Nerhesi]

Agreed Daniel. I would go by the following:

First paragraph, HG2, Page 67:

"The ship design rules covered in previous chapters cover a broad range of technologies, up to around TL15. While technology beyond this is rare in the Third Imperium, it certainly exists and in other universes it may be common to the extent of ubiquity. "

Therefore - I would rest comfortably knowing everything in this chapter is either non-canon, or near-unique (a.k.a annic nova). By MgT2 RAW, Collectors would be no more available then Time-Drives, or Plasma Pulse Cannons or Energy Shields. In other words, GM's prerogative.

 

[fusor]

I dont think it's important to finger who gave what direction. When I asked for my own benefit if T5 (and now MgT2) had established some "changes" as "canon" - I was informed that some of these things have been in place in previous version as well (so post Classic Traveller, but pre-T5).

PS If i'm not mistaken, DonM passed away earlier this year, months prior to the finalization of HG2.

DonM was the only other person I can think of who could have had any kind of authority to decide on canon changes that wasn't Marc. So if it wasn't him or Marc, then who could it have been? I really don't understand why everyone's so determined to hide this person. I'm certainly not going to scream at them, I just want to know who it is. (the "AHL isn't a tail-sitter and wasn't intended to be" thing is also quite baffling, since apparently that's what this person claimed to allow the change in HG2, and yet it's been a tail-sitter since it was first introduced in CT - I'm just curious as to who that person is and why they think it suddenly different now. Apparently it's not someone on CotI, or they would have said something about it there by now and it wouldn't have been such a surprise to them).

"Previous versions" have been all over the place. TNE changed the entire M-Drive technology, among other things. GURPS and T20 shoehorned the game into their own systems with various tweaks that affected the setting. T4 was set over 1000 years before most of the other settings, so was pretty different.

But again, without a decent reference for what the 3I is, was, should be or should have been it's all a bit of a mess. It seems to me that they're just trying to get around it by setting a new standard (T5) that is cherry-picking from other editions but also adds a lot of new stuff that wasn't there before, which I think is just adding to the confusion.

 

[fusor]

What is important though is to admit any attempt to reconcile the various editions to make them consistent will result in failure as they each have elements that may or may not agree with other editions.

I don't think it is. If someone wants to establish a canon then all they have to do is go through everything and say "this is in, this is out" - whether it agrees with any other editions is moot then, because what's been decided there is the new official canon. What irks me here is that this is being done in a hodge-podge, unclear, secretive way so nobody knows what the hell is going on - and also it seems to be being decided by committee, which is never a good idea for things like this (T5 was pretty much developed by committee, and look how that turned out). We don't need lots of people pulling things in different directions, it's far better to have one person making an authoritative, informed decision.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There is so much rubbish being quoted in this thread.

The basic ship building system has weapon systems that do not appear ever in the OTU:
'ion' cannon
tachyon cannon
The high tech chapter contains technology that does appear in the OTU:
collectors (Annic Nova was the very firs JTAS adventure, later to be reprinted in DA:1)
meson bays

 

[Sigtrygg]

Correct, not intended for the Third Imperium setting. The only ship using it is the Annic Nova, and that was needed in order to do the ship in the new version.

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious - the Annic Nova is part of the 3I setting and has been since JTAS 1. So collectors are part of the 3I setting. This is truly scary - does no one at Mongoose know this stuff?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Are these non-3I technologies clearly defined as such in High Guard?

No, they are not.
Baseline 3I tech also appears in the High Technology options while the basic shipbuilding rules include weapons that are not part of the 3I setting.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Fusion Gun turrets, particle beam turrets and Meson Bays used to be, according to one of those directive from above things they no longer are.

They are still in T5 so whoever is giving these instructions either hasn't read it or is making up excuses.

 

[AndrewW]

They are still in T5 so whoever is giving these instructions either hasn't read it or is making up excuses.

These came down from MWM and company, it was not Mongoose Publishing's decision. They where originally in the regular Weapons section.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Agreed Daniel. I would go by the following:

First paragraph, HG2, Page 67:

"The ship design rules covered in previous chapters cover a broad range of technologies, up to around TL15. While technology beyond this is rare in the Third Imperium, it certainly exists and in other universes it may be common to the extent of ubiquity. "

Therefore - I would rest comfortably knowing everything in this chapter is either non-canon, or near-unique (a.k.a annic nova). By MgT2 RAW, Collectors would be no more available then Time-Drives, or Plasma Pulse Cannons or Energy Shields. In other words, GM's prerogative.

When even the official Imperial ships in HG uses components from the High Tech chapter, e.g. Meson bays and particle turrets, they can't be all that uncommon. Even TL14 designs that are presumably centuries old have them.

The quoted text only restricts components with a TL higher than 15.

There is nothing in the book that tells someone unfamiliar with Traveller canon that these components are not generally available.

 

[fusor]

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious - the Annic Nova is part of the 3I setting and has been since JTAS 1. So collectors are part of the 3I setting. This is truly scary - does no one at Mongoose know this stuff?

I'd say that "an Alien ship that appears once in a single adventure and never again" is only technically "part of the setting". It's there, yes. IIRC its origin was never explained though (and hasn't been explained since either for that matter). The Collector technology it used has never been replicated in the Imperium since it was discovered either (I don't think it has ever appeared in any design system since then, or been stated to be part of any other ship since then) and may not even be replicable at Imperial tech levels (until now, apparently). Also Annic Nova was written before the 3I setting had really been fully devised (there are some other early adventures - Kinunir and Leviathan? - that also apparently include things that are atypical of the 3I setting).

So sure, it's "part of the 3I setting" in that it's appeared once in it, but that doesn't really mean that Collectors are or should be available as design elements for other ships in the setting (unless you want to design more ships built by whoever made the Annic Nova). If that were the case then that changes things quite significantly a lot at High Imperial tech levels - 3I ships with such technology would not be uncommon and Collectors may even ultimately end up being installed on lower tech ships as well.

 

[fusor]

No, they are not.

I think someone else claimed elsewhere that they were separated. So that's great, even people who have read the book can't make up their minds about it!

I think since Mongoose have apparently decided to do a post-release beta playtest of the book then it they may as well make some changes to the editing/layout while they're at it, in order to more effectively separate the 3I stuff from the non-3I stuff?