TL 14 Collectors In High Guard
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Another thought - experimental and advanced collectors advantages/disadvantages.
Disadvantages -
canopy degradation: canopy degrades in use and must be replaced yearly. Using a degraded canopy increases charging time, it doubles for the first six months past replacement due date, doubling again every six months
inefficient canopy: charging the jump drive requires 1-6 weeks, this is dependant on distance from nearest star and star type
Advantages -
sturdy canopy: the canopy of the collector is sturdy enough to cope with non combat maneuver of the ship
efficient canopy - the collector can charge the jump drive in 5 days instead of a full week.
Disadvantages -
canopy degradation: canopy degrades in use and must be replaced yearly. Using a degraded canopy increases charging time, it doubles for the first six months past replacement due date, doubling again every six months
inefficient canopy: charging the jump drive requires 1-6 weeks, this is dependant on distance from nearest star and star type
Advantages -
sturdy canopy: the canopy of the collector is sturdy enough to cope with non combat maneuver of the ship
efficient canopy - the collector can charge the jump drive in 5 days instead of a full week.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I still think there should be a sidebar to explain which technologies from the High Technology chapter are used on the ships in the Imperial Ships Guide part of the book. This saves the reader having to do the work themselves.AndrewW said:
So far I have:
meson bays
tractor bays
fusion turrets
particle turrets
collector
That is a good idea but the jury is out on Meson bays - as far as I'm aware, they're out. Yet - they're in. Perhaps andrew can shed some light.
Fusion and Particle are barbette and higher only.
Collector - I had thought it was rare/unique/annic nova only. But that silly 1-word in Portents of course begs confirmation (Annic Nova Type craft?!)
Fusion and Particle are barbette and higher only.
Collector - I had thought it was rare/unique/annic nova only. But that silly 1-word in Portents of course begs confirmation (Annic Nova Type craft?!)
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Tigress?Nerhesi said:
Yup - problems abound
What are we aligning to? Because if fusion and particle turrets are back in (they're not in T5 - and in CT u can only have single turrets) - we have rule/balance issues. Specifically, double/triple particle and fusion turrets would have to be disallowed.
What are we aligning to? Because if fusion and particle turrets are back in (they're not in T5 - and in CT u can only have single turrets) - we have rule/balance issues. Specifically, double/triple particle and fusion turrets would have to be disallowed.
The real issue with Collectors themselves is that as stated they're not a technological item - they're a magic item. They rely on collecting "exotic particles" that don't exist and that somehow make a jump drive work, and they work the same way no matter how far away the ship is from the star. They're just a black box that allows the ship to "cheat" when it comes to jump drives.
The only particles that stars emit are neutrinos, photons, electrons, protons, alpha particles (helium nuclei) and a few heavier ions. There's nothing "exotic" in there and nothing that couldn't be produced by other items of technology itself (particularly since by TL14 there are certainly going to be fusion reactors that use the fusion reactions that occur in stars). And as stated earlier the luminosity of a star is inversely proportional to the distance from it, so as you go further from a star the amount of any particles would decrease significantly (and would also depend on the type of star since they have different luminosities).
They have absolutely no basis in science as described, so I question why they are presented as such in a science fiction game. They're not even a "technology so advanced it looks like magic", they're just nonsense.
The only particles that stars emit are neutrinos, photons, electrons, protons, alpha particles (helium nuclei) and a few heavier ions. There's nothing "exotic" in there and nothing that couldn't be produced by other items of technology itself (particularly since by TL14 there are certainly going to be fusion reactors that use the fusion reactions that occur in stars). And as stated earlier the luminosity of a star is inversely proportional to the distance from it, so as you go further from a star the amount of any particles would decrease significantly (and would also depend on the type of star since they have different luminosities).
They have absolutely no basis in science as described, so I question why they are presented as such in a science fiction game. They're not even a "technology so advanced it looks like magic", they're just nonsense.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
T5 only has design rules for ships up to 2400t at the moment - the capital ships will come when and if BCS - battle class ship - ever appears in print.
If you read through all the ships in the HG2e section you will find several that have meson bays, several that have fusion turrets, several that have particle turrets, several that have tractor bays and of course the Annic Nova.
They are there - they are part of 3I standard ships.
If you read through all the ships in the HG2e section you will find several that have meson bays, several that have fusion turrets, several that have particle turrets, several that have tractor bays and of course the Annic Nova.
They are there - they are part of 3I standard ships.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
As nonsense as tachon cannon or 'ion' cannon or superlasers that can destroy planets or neutron lasers...fusor said:
Explain to me how the gravitic maneuver drive works, using only physics as we currently understand it. Or how about artificial gravity and acceleration compensation, surely you can explain those using current physics.
And of course we know how the jump drive works since we can build them in prototype form at TL7.
There are a few possibilities - stars emit dark energy and the collector sweeps up the particle expression of that energy. Don't like dark energy then lets use dark matter particles - the collector is TL14 remember, way beyond our current understanding of physics.
If you want to use only known setting handwavium then it could be an advanced form of meson screen in the collector that interacts with neutrinos.
PsiTraveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Mongoose would probably have to change to what MWM says is Canon and retcon. An example of this would be particle beams in turrets, they used to be allowed, are no longer. That happened in the middle of the playtest.
As for Collectors being a magic item. So are Jump Engines. How does inflating a bubble (in space with no actual containment system) create a pocket universe that lets a ship jump to another star system in a week.
They are both plot devices. Collectors being a new kind of power source. Exotic particles could be some sort of previously unknown type of quantum particle, or it uses 'regular' exotic particles in a new way to allow a Jump Engine to create a pocket universe without needing to inject all that hydrogen into the pocket universe.
How is a Collector more magic than a standard Jump Drive?
As for Collectors being a magic item. So are Jump Engines. How does inflating a bubble (in space with no actual containment system) create a pocket universe that lets a ship jump to another star system in a week.
They are both plot devices. Collectors being a new kind of power source. Exotic particles could be some sort of previously unknown type of quantum particle, or it uses 'regular' exotic particles in a new way to allow a Jump Engine to create a pocket universe without needing to inject all that hydrogen into the pocket universe.
How is a Collector more magic than a standard Jump Drive?
Yeah...
There was little/no confusion before andrew got his guidance to translate ships. It seems that "examples" and "other publications" created this issue.
Prior to that, it was simple and straightforward:
Hightechnology = rare/unique or unavailable in 3I. We even discussed this internally and on the forums several times.
Then examples and actual 3I specific ships appeared which did not adhere to that.
T5 won't change fusion and particle to be available on turrets for BCS. Unless we are expecting more magic. It'd be shooting itself in the foot because suddenly quad-particle turrets would be better than fusion bays and so on.
Anyways - I'll dig into my contacts because now I'm getting a bit bothered
There was little/no confusion before andrew got his guidance to translate ships. It seems that "examples" and "other publications" created this issue.
Prior to that, it was simple and straightforward:
Hightechnology = rare/unique or unavailable in 3I. We even discussed this internally and on the forums several times.
Then examples and actual 3I specific ships appeared which did not adhere to that.
T5 won't change fusion and particle to be available on turrets for BCS. Unless we are expecting more magic. It'd be shooting itself in the foot because suddenly quad-particle turrets would be better than fusion bays and so on.
Anyways - I'll dig into my contacts because now I'm getting a bit bothered
Sigtrygg said:
More so. At least ions exist, and neutrons exist. But whatever the Collector uses doesn't. And "tachyon lasers" are just 100% idiotic - whoever thought those up needs to walk away and never be allowed to touch a scifi game again (particularly since nobody believes they even exist anymore, much like the graviton).
You're missing the point. Those are valid science fiction because at least they have some vague basis in science (even though they're not possible) - you can say "look, we're manipulating gravity (which exists)" for those. Or the nuclear forces, for that matter. The Collector though? As described, whatever it uses simply doesn't exist. It's just a magic box that does stuff, with no science behind it at all.
No. Because we do[/i] actually know something about these things. I know people like to claim that we don't, but that's simply not true, and ignorance is no excuse for armwaving.
Despite the name, Dark Energy is not actually "energy"- it's essentially number that is a fudge factor in an equation used to to explain the accelerating expansion of the universe. It's not a thing that is produced, created, or emitted by anything. And we know enough about Dark Matter to know that it doesn't interact with anything (even itself) and isn't produced by stars, so that's ruled out.
OK, so stick a fusion reactor behind it and you've got all the neutrinos that you need. Then you don't need stars, you just need to trap all the neutrinos that your fusion reactor produces. Then I guess it just depends on the power output of your reactor (plus you'd probably want to entirely surround your reactor with this 'Collector' too for maximum efficiency. Though maybe some neutrinos still get through the Collector so ships can be detected using neutrino sensors. Sure, that's pretty wild, but at least it's an explanation that has some basis in reality.
PsiTraveller said:
Because at least alternate universes have been theorised to exist. They're a scifi staple too. Didn't some big scifi author (Asimov? Clarke?) say something about being allowed one impossible thing to make the setting work?
The point is that Collectors have no basis whatsoever as described. They're just a magical way to power a jump drive that doesn't conform to any kind of common sense or logic or reality at all (and what's an "exotic particle" anyway? The point is they're "exotic", not common enough to be produced by stars!)
If Collectors are to work, then a better explanation is needed. Neutrinos are good - those are known to exist. But they're also produced by fusion reactors that are on spaceships too, so that has its own set of implications if they're what Collectors use.
I'd be wary in attempting to define scifi (forget even hardness) with what is realistic today.
Jump drives and armour that can shrug off nuclear explosions, is logically, as handwavium as collectors, grav drives, Mesons, dodging/evading, any character skill mattering at all in space combat (to-hit or dodge - lol).
How realistic something I has zero bearing on scifi or even hard-scifi (I'm sorry - too bad). What hardness in scifi means to me, is internal consistency.
If I have collectors, do I need fuelled jump drives?
If I have ftl communication? Why can't I weaponize that?
That's what matters. But whether Tachyons weapons are realistic or not, or ar grav drives realistic - that isn't a problem.
Establish your handwavium. But then make sure you've considered all potential side applications and impacts of said handwavium.
Jump drives and armour that can shrug off nuclear explosions, is logically, as handwavium as collectors, grav drives, Mesons, dodging/evading, any character skill mattering at all in space combat (to-hit or dodge - lol).
How realistic something I has zero bearing on scifi or even hard-scifi (I'm sorry - too bad). What hardness in scifi means to me, is internal consistency.
If I have collectors, do I need fuelled jump drives?
If I have ftl communication? Why can't I weaponize that?
That's what matters. But whether Tachyons weapons are realistic or not, or ar grav drives realistic - that isn't a problem.
Establish your handwavium. But then make sure you've considered all potential side applications and impacts of said handwavium.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Bingo - you have just explained how the standard fusion power plant initiated jump drive works.fusor said:
So at TL9 a very bright or lucky culture that is experimenting with artificial gravity, acceleration compensation fields and what not discover that something in their machinery is changing the nature of the neutrinos emitted by the fusion reactor. After much experimentation it is discovered that a sudden massive surge in fusion output can produce enough of these exotic wave/particles that not only do the disappear off into higher dimensions (one of the propositions for why gravity is so weak is that it propagates through higher dimensions) but hat they open a rift in spacetime into those higher dimensions.
TL
R they invent the jump drive based on the exotic particles produced by the fusion reactor that is needed to initiate jump.Fast forward a few TLs, nuclear damper technology and later meson screen technology allow actual manipulation of the strong and weak nuclear forces.
Now suppose we have a race outside the Third Imperium that never invented gravitics or fusion but made it all the way to TL12 and did start to mess around with damper and meson technology. They continue to TL14. One day a jump ship from another race comes calling and they become aware of gravitics, jump technology etc but they decide that big fusion reactors are too dangerous to have around, but they can adapt their solar collector technology by integration with damper and meson tech to build the collector powered jump drive.
They start exploring, trading and in 1103 the Imperium is alerted to a strange new ship sighted at a frontier world...
Nerhesi said:
It's not about that. I don't know why people are having such a hard time understanding this. Collectors rely on something that doesn't exist. Not that can't be detected - it just does not exist. It is pure fantasy. There is no science in there whatsoever.
Grav drives? Gravity exists, and it's not unreasonable to believe that it could be manipulated at some point. Jump drives? Wormholes are theorised to be possible, it's not unreasonable to believe that we could find a way to make them (with 'jumpspace' being the transit through the wormhole). Superdense armour? superdense materials exist, maybe we can find a way to collapse matter into such a state and manipulate it. These are properly "science fiction" - there's a little science in there even if it's mostly fiction.
But Collectors? There's no basis for them at all, as described. We know the particles that stars emit, we know they decrease with distance from the star, we know that stars have different luminosities. Collectors ignore all that and magically collect enough of whatever it is at the same rate, regardless of their location. As described, that is utterly impossible.
Note that I keep saying "as described". If Collectors are a thing, then fine, but they just need a better explanation that agrees with how they're supposed to work. So:
1) If we allow that they are collecting some kind of magic particle from stars, then the rate at which they do so must depend on the luminosity of the star and on the distance that they are from the star. That's just basic physics right there, and cannot be ignored.
2) Alternatively, maybe they don't collect anything at all. Perhaps they just tap into 'zero point energy' or the quantum foam or something like that (again these are known to exist. Right now it's fantasy to say that they can be tapped for any energy, but one could imagine that by TL14 maybe someone's figured out a way). This wouldn't depend on distance from stars, it just requires that the ship exists in spacetime (and maybe it requires undisturbed spacetime so it can only be done away from large masses like planets).
Either of those options would address this issue.
