Time to rewrite some stats...

[Abraxas]

Let me first say that I never played B5 Wars, but I did own some books and I did see how the ships were layed out. I also saw the special rules of many ships, and though I understand that ACtA is not B5 Wars, to deny that ACtA is loosely based on B5 Wars is to deny reality.

With that said I want to change an aspect of a single ship in the Centauri Navy; The Dargan Strike Cruiser.

As it stands now, the Dargan is pretty good all around... but one thing is missing; the iconic stealth capabilities it had in B5 Wars as well as the Rutrian Strike fighters it used to have... and ELINT properties, but they don't translate well into ACtA, so for the time being, I can settle for something else.

Here is my propositition:

Dargan Strike Cruiser

Speed: 10 ---------- Damage: 28/7 ---------- Craft: 2 Rutrian
Turn: 2/45* -------- Crew: 30/7 -------------- Special Rules: AJP, Scout
Hull: 5 -------------- Troops: 3 ---------------- P lvl: Battle

Weapon -------------- Range ------ Arc ----------AD -------------- Special --
Battle Laser ----------- 25 ---------- F ------------ 2 ------------- B, DD, SAP
Matter Cannon -------- 12 ---------- F ------------ 6 ------------- AP, DD
TPA --------------------- 8 ----- - F, P, S, A -------8 -------------- TL

SPECIAL "Chamelion Cloak": For each AD fired at the Dargan, roll a D6. On a roll of 5+ the AD continues to be rolled against the Hull score. If unsuccessful, the AD misses (TL does not allow you to reroll this). Beams roll a single AD, if they hit all successive Beam AD is to be rolled against the Hull. If it misses, the entire Beam misses.

EXAMPLE: An Omega Hvy Destroyer is 10" from a Daragan, firing with it's hvy laser cannon and it's hvy pulse cannon. A Hyperion is also firing it's hvy laser cannon.

Hvy pulse cannon (Omega) results:
3, 5, 4, 1, 6, 2, 6, 6, 5, 1

5 hits are rolled against the hull score of the Dargan

Hvy laser cannon (Omega) results:
2

Because the single AD missed, the entire shot misses

Hvy laser cannon (Hyperion) results:
5

Because the shot hit, all 4 AD for the hvy laser cannon may be rolled against the Dargan Hull score.

In regards to the "Chameilion Cloak": This makes high AD weapons the ideal choice against the Dargan while lasers, though devastating, ineffectual. I am not sure if the normal stealth rules are similar cause I don't actually know the rules for stealth.

This leaves one problem: This allows for the player to sit back and take pot shots with it's battle laser, comfortable in the fact that high AD weapons usually have very low ranges. However, with just 2 AD on the battle laser, how much damage can they hope to do. If that is there plan they should have used the points on a Primus. Basically, making the Dargan a sniper isn't that great of a use...

As for the ship as a whole: I didn't feel like it was living up to it's title as "strike cruiser". Sure it was fast... but that was it. With AJP it can jump in and strike the rear of the enemy fleet quickly and where it has the least amount of return fire to worry about (i.e. high AD). Also, the addition of Rutrians give it aux. fire power and brings it more in line with the the idea of advancing technology. Plus, Rutrians and Dargans go together like meat and potatoes. They both look sexy.

Anyway, my point was to give an alternative ship for battle priorities (other than the Primus and her varients) and lower the number of battle lasers at the Raid priority.

Also, the adition of "Scout" made it as close to ELINT as possible... though it is not really important to have it. Mostly threw it on as an afterthought.

Good? Bad? Should I put the crack pipe down?

Just wondering...

 

[Hash]

Honestly? I have a Centauri fleet with a Dargan in it myself and I have a few comments...

1. The chameleon cloak trait sounds both extremely powerful and a little cumbersome. On one hand it seems to be identical to stealth 5+ (excepting there are no modifiers for range) for beam weapons and for non beam weapons would result in another round of rolling dice for the attack weapons...it just sounds like a little dice heavy for my liking. If you wanted to reflect this cloak - why not use a mechanism that is already well known, such as Stealth and be done with it?

2. I do like the fact that it could carry Rutarians however - gives it something different to the other ships (well apart from the Adira).

3. You mention giving the Centauri another choice at battle - the Centauri has a carrier choice at battle already (balvarix), it doesn't seem to fill a capability gap in the fleet list.

4. The Dargan is a good ship already and a viable option for Centauri commanders that want some all round fire-arcs (along with the Altarian), it fills a role in fleet already and there isn't really a *need* to change it.

I know it was different in B5 wars but honestly its a made up ship that was never in the show - what does it matter what stats it has as long as its balanced?

In summary, some things I like, some things I don't like but it all boils down to I don't see the need for a change here, sorry...top marks for creativity on the new rule trait though - sound like you made a genuine attempt to get it to behave as a unique mechanic.

Hash.

 

[Target]

I'd give it 3+ stealth instead of your Chaemelon Suite, Interceptors 2 but keep the stats. Maybe 4 AD beam
I think 3+ stealth would be reasonable as the centauri are trying simulate what the Minbari do since they are the most powerful force at the time, Interceptors since they have been putting them on their more modern ships.
It might need slighty more hits but not sure since it also has interceptors.
Hows that for an idea.

 

[Abraxas]

1. The chameleon cloak trait sounds both extremely powerful and a little cumbersome. On one hand it seems to be identical to stealth 5+ (excepting there are no modifiers for range) for beam weapons and for non beam weapons would result in another round of rolling dice for the attack weapons...it just sounds like a little dice heavy for my liking. If you wanted to reflect this cloak - why not use a mechanism that is already well known, such as Stealth and be done with it?

Cause that is what everyone else wants to do, and in my effort to be different, I made this.

Exactly how does Stealth work? I have "Advanced Rules and Updates for SFoS" and I can't find any rules for stealth... can someone give me a rundown or is that against copyrigth laws?

I see some of the complaint about dice... but this (and all games like it) are dice intensive. I just didn't think that would have been a problem.

2. I do like the fact that it could carry Rutarians however - gives it something different to the other ships (well apart from the Adira).

Yeah. I wanted a warship that could carry Rutrians for some change over the standard Sentri/Razik carriers...

3. You mention giving the Centauri another choice at battle - the Centauri has a carrier choice at battle already (balvarix), it doesn't seem to fill a capability gap in the fleet list.

I do think the Balvarix is a pretty good BATTLE ship and of course the Primus and varients, but I wanted to see some change among the 3 ships that look the same and the varient of another...

4. The Dargan is a good ship already and a viable option for Centauri commanders that want some all round fire-arcs (along with the Altarian), it fills a role in fleet already and there isn't really a *need* to change it.

... and Magnus.

My only argument that the ability to fire behind you is only among ships at high PLs. My understanding is that the ships should fpcus on front and side using Maximus' and Vorchans as support. A ship with the ability to defend it's own flank should have a price tag that reflects it. This would also bolster the use of Altarians (which *I* would love to see).

I know it was different in B5 wars but honestly its a made up ship that was never in the show - what does it matter what stats it has as long as its balanced?

Understandable. However, I always thought that the Rutrian and Dargan came out of the same factory, and since ACtA took the liberty of keeping the Rutrian a stealth fighter, why couldn't they keep the Dargan a speciaist ship with specialist hardware?

That's all.

In summary, some things I like, some things I don't like but it all boils down to I don't see the need for a change here, sorry...top marks for creativity on the new rule trait though - sound like you made a genuine attempt to get it to behave as a unique mechanic.

Thank you. I tried... though I guess it is more rolling then some people prefer.

 

[Obsidian]

Exactly how does Stealth work?

It's fairly simple really. If you target a ship with stealth, you have to roll to beat their stealth score. So if you're firing at a Sharlin with Stealth 5+ for example, you need to first roll a 5 or 6 in order to move on to the normal attack phase. It's an all or nothing type of thing. Beat the roll and you get to roll your AD like you were targetting a non stealth ship. Fail the roll and all your weapons fire needlessly into space. This includes slow-loading weapons. To think of it in "real" terms, your sensors were really really sure the Sharlin was about 5 Kilometers to the left of where it actually was. Whoops...

Yeah. I wanted a warship that could carry Rutrians for some change over the standard Sentri/Razik carriers...

Well if you're in a campaign you can buy a Rutarian replacement wing and just bump the Sentris off the ship. For one off games though you can't do that unfortunately. :-(

 

[Reaverman]

IMHO...play the game before tweaking. The people who have made tweaks, or suggestions have done so after playing the game. If you cant find anyone in your neigbourhood, why not try Vassal. With someone off here, and get some experience.

 

[Abraxas]

IMHO...play the game before tweaking. The people who have made tweaks, or suggestions have done so after playing the game. If you cant find anyone in your neigbourhood, why not try Vassal. With someone off here, and get some experience.

I know what you are saying ( )... but I tried Vassal and I just couldn't get it to work. I may try it again, but fortunately 2 of my 40K friends may have become interested in ACtA (YAY!).

Looks like a new Earth player and a Narn player (I play Centauri) so this may be a good thing.

The bad thing: I go to school in New York and my friends live back at home in Delaware, which means we can only play when I go home ( :evil: ). I just recently gave all of my DVDs to one of these guys that wants to know about the B5 universe, (YAY!) and he may start buying models soon. We could play a game next time I go home (Feb 16 - 19) which should be fun.

I know it is REALLY sad to have as many posts as I do and never played the game. Embarresing, really... but I love to talk about the game. Most of my posts are questions or fleet lists with this post being one of my first to make suggestions.

The Combat Sim has really made me understand the distribution of damage and the general expectations when I fire weapons at certain ships, but yes, nothing can help more than actual experience. I hope to get some soon.

I probably overstepped my bounds when I make suggestions like this...

 

[Locutus9956]

Well, tbh Id like to see the Dargan go back more to its B5Wars roots but the rule youve proposed for the chameleon fields is both nothing like the B5Wars one and far too powerful (it is essentially giving it a 2+ dodge that works against antifighter weapons too....).

As it worked in B5Wars the Dargans cloak system did NOT make it any harder to hit it simply allowed it to disguise itself as an enemy ship (on long range sensors at least). I would suggest this rule instead:

Chameleon Cloak: The Dargan is euipped with sophisiticated camouflage system that allows it, for all extents and purposes to appear as an enemy ship. The system is not perfect though and enemies will be able to determine the ships true identity once it gets too close.

Enemy ships may not fire on the dargan until an enemy ship or auxilliary craft has closed to within 6" and survived into the end phase of the turn (if destroyed before this it doe not have time to transmit its findings to the fleet). Ships with the scout trait can need only get within 12" to detect the ships true identity though. Note that you need only get within the defined range, line of sight is NOT required

As soon as the Dargan fires on any target though, its identiy is revealed and the ship is fair game for all enemy ships immediately.

The Chameleon field does NOT work vs. Vorlons, Shadows or other ancients who's sensor technology is far too advanced to fall for such a simple trick. It DOES however work on Drakh who, advanced as they are, are still not actually shadows

With this rule I wouldnt actually change the Dargan much, though I would give it 2 Flights of Rutarians as its fighter comliment and change its weaponry for a more short ranged load out (drop the lasers and give it plasma accelerators or matter cannons)

 

[Locutus9956]

ps. Abraxas: Stealth as it stands is VERY similar to the rule you suggested, you simply roll a single d6 for a ship wishing to target the stealth vessel and if you equal or beat its stealth score you can then roll to hit etc as normal, if you fail, all your fire from that ship on that target misses automatically (there are modifiers for range and scout asistance now though but I still think its too all or nothing)

 

[locarno24]

I like this; never played B5 Wars, but the ideas are good.

As it worked in B5Wars the Dargans cloak system did NOT make it any harder to hit it simply allowed it to disguise itself as an enemy ship (on long range sensors at least).

Having to get within 6" is pretty harsh, though... I suppose it's only until it opens fire, but a Dargan is not a slow ship.....what happens in flee to the jumpgate, blockade run, or similar....

Maybe give it a modified stealth rule; if you fail you can't shoot at it (but can nominate a different target instead) and it's lost once it's passed, the dargan shoots or launches fighters (ruutarian strike fighters launching from a 'hyperion' will give the game away bloody quick....)

Scout is probably a little harsh for a ship carrying its own laser systems....a front-line Centauri warship with 3+ stealth is quite possible, though; it's been done better than that (4+) on the Corvan for some time; moving up to stealthing a medium cruiser is a reasonable next step, and 3+ is reasonable for a capital ship (given that Minbari light warships tend to get 4+, and that a Dargan has good stand-off fire with its main laser)

 

[Locutus9956]

Well 6" may SOUND quite harsh but remember all you need to do is get ANYTHING in that range for 1 turn even a flight of fighters, its not as hard as you may think. As an alternative though you could give it a target number to identify the ship that gets easier as it closes (with id attempts made at the end of the movement phase like scout rules).

6+ needed at range 36", 5+ at 30", 4+ at 24", 3+ at 18", 2+ at 12", automatic at 6". Scouts simply count as one range brakcet closer. Aux craft may auto id at 6" in the end phase (even if engaged in dogfight).

As before the ship gives itself away as soon as it opens fire. How does that sound? Its a little more complex than the originial idea Ill admit but I really dont want to just give it stealth as thats not what it had (and indeed its its Elint capabilities were in fact very weak in B5Wars aside from the chameleon cloak (I also wouldnt give it scout for the same reason, the field and the advance fighters are more than enough for the ship as it stands).

By the way for those of you who havent ever played B5Wars I highly recommend giving it a go sometime if you get the chance, its alot more complex than ACTA and takes alot longer to play but for small engagements with 2 or 3 ships a side its fantastically fun

 

[Obsidian]

I probably overstepped my bounds when I make suggestions like this...

Honestly I wouldn't worry about it. You were looking to create a bit of variety at Battle level for the Centauri and this was an interesting attempt. Doing it in the future though you're probably better off creating a whole new ship rather than trying to modify an existing one. People seem to get very attached to their own perception of how a ship should be put together...

Chameleon Cloak: The Dargan is euipped with sophisiticated camouflage system that allows it, for all extents and purposes to appear as an enemy ship. The system is not perfect though and enemies will be able to determine the ships true identity once it gets too close.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't see how it could be used practically speaking. Imagine someone putting a Dargan down on the board and then saying "Ok, you have to pretened like this is one of your ships. No manuevering away from it or anything until you get close enough to figure out what it is." Sounds kind of preposterous doesn't it?

 

[Locutus9956]

Well thats exactly how it worked in B5 Wars The point is not necessarily that the nemy doesnt know its not an enemy, theyre just not SURE. You can maneuver at will but you simply cant SHOOT at it until you know for a fact that its hostile

 

[Hash]

I can just picture it...
---------------

EA Lt: "Commander sensors have picked up a Tertius Battlecruiser, a Prefect Armoured Cruiser, a Sulust Destroyer and a...um...that can't be right"
EA Commander: "What is it Lt?"
EA Lt: "There also seems to be a Vorlon Heavy Cruiser flying in formation with the fleet!"
EA Commander: Don't be stupid Lt, that's an Armageddon point and we're playing 5pt Raid - besides it's from another fleet list...no that's the Dargan - shoot it...everything else in that guy's fleet has Hull 6!"

---------------

Yeah, that sounds very um sensible...yeah....so this Babylon 5 Wars game went the way of the dodo right? :twisted:

 

[Abraxas]

Chameleon Cloak: The Dargan is euipped with sophisiticated camouflage system that allows it, for all extents and purposes to appear as an enemy ship. The system is not perfect though and enemies will be able to determine the ships true identity once it gets too close.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't see how it could be used practically speaking. Imagine someone putting a Dargan down on the board and then saying "Ok, you have to pretened like this is one of your ships. No manuevering away from it or anything until you get close enough to figure out what it is." Sounds kind of preposterous doesn't it?

I can just picture it...
---------------

EA Lt: "Commander sensors have picked up a Tertius Battlecruiser, a Prefect Armoured Cruiser, a Sulust Destroyer and a...um...that can't be right"
EA Commander: "What is it Lt?"
EA Lt: "There also seems to be a Vorlon Heavy Cruiser flying in formation with the fleet!"
EA Commander: Don't be stupid Lt, that's an Armageddon point and we're playing 5pt Raid - besides it's from another fleet list...no that's the Dargan - shoot it...everything else in that guy's fleet has Hull 6!"

That's why I switched it. I am in the same boat as you, Obsidian and Hash, so I figured giving it something useful (and practical was a better idea).

Yeah, that sounds very um sensible...yeah....so this Babylon 5 Wars game went the way of the dodo right? :twisted:

Well, in actuality the Dargan was to be used as a single ship... not so much as a fleet support unit.

 

[Target]

Maybe give 5 +rating reduced the same as stealth, fail -1 to hit & also give it +1 to run silent & can move full speed while running silent. This could represent more stealth rather than the jamming type the Minbari & scouts use. Someone might actually use the run silent SA with this ship.

 

[Locutus9956]

Well you might try picturing this instead rather than being silly about Vorlon ships, it was a cool gadget in B5Wars and worked well if used right, making it just another kind of stealth strikes me as more than a little boring (and frankly I STILL dont like the stealth rules even with their armageddon update, theyre much better than they used to be but still have ALOT of room for improvement):

Sensor Operator: Sir enemy detected and closing! Readint a Tertius and 4 Demos!

Captain: Stand by to engage power to forward defence grids, focus your fire on the...

Sensor Operator: Sir! Jump point opening in sector 4!

Captain: More hostiles?!

Sensor Operator: No sir, looks like one of ours!

meanwhile on board the Dargan....

Centauri XO: Sir they're still running with interceptors directed away from us...

Kahn Mollari: Of course, we are one big happy fleet! Ah Sheridan, my old friend, do you know the Narn proverb that says revenge is a dish best serverd cold? It is very cold in space.....

Back on the EA bridge...

Captain: What? We dont have any other ships in the area Im aware of, hail it!

Dargan bridge...

Kahn Mollari: Let them eat static

EA Bridge

Comms: No response sir

Sensor Operator: Unknown hyperion is still closing, getting an odd sensor echo as well.

Captain: This is damn perculiar.... I dont like this, move us away from it and redirect some defence grids towards it....

Sensor Operator: Sir! The Hyperion is firing on us!

Captain: Damn, Ive heard about these things, some kind of camouflage technology, advise the fleet that that hyperion is not what it seems and return fire![/i]

 

[Alexb83]

Man, those guys really need to watch Star Trek 2. Standard operating procedure when being approached by a fleet vessel and it is not possible to establish communications? 'Raise the shields, prepare to fire...'

 

[Locutus9956]

We are one big happy fleet

 

[Locutus9956]

Man, those guys really need to watch Star Trek 2. Standard operating procedure when being approached by a fleet vessel and it is not possible to establish communications? 'Raise the shields, prepare to fire...'

Actually thinking about it thats wrong anyway, according to the regulation as quoted by Lt. Saavilk the situation calls for yellow alert. Yellow alert mandadtes shields raised but weapons NOT armed, it is a purely defensive cautious posture intended to be ready for the unexpected but not provoke any hostile actions by appearing agressive

And besides, the Captain is well aware of the regulations Luitenant