Thought on the damage system

[Thile]

I do not like, never have actually, the thought that you reduce stat (str, dex, end) when you are hurt.

I did a simplified version of this:

I have two health values:

First we have health: That is Str+End+Dex = this is how much you will take before you recieve a deadly wound and die. If you get below 0, you must roll end not to die for the first round, thhe next round you get -1 DM, next -2DM. If your friends can do a successful Medic roll, you stabilize the wound and no more roll to die/survive.

However

I also have consciousness: This is End + Int if you go below this in a single attack, you will go down and lose consciousness. And anyone with a Medic +2DM can get you up again, and you can resume the combat again after a few rounds.

When it comes to Psionic Assault, I use the consciousness value to see when a person goes down.

what you think about this and if you see any flaws, just tell me so i ca improve it.

 

[Vargrz]

Interesting.

I generally don't like to add rules because part of the elegance of Traveller is the simplicity if the system.

I do like the your idea of END + INT for the knockout blow. Clever idea.
Why not just use STR + END for killing damage? That makes it much closer to the systems design?

 

[GamerDude]

Interesting approach Thile... but I agree about the simplicity of how MGT handles it.

As you take damage your ability to perform drops. MGT reflects this by the drop in current END (first) with a corresponding drop in your END modifier (and thus affecting any actions/skill that are related to END).

Being "fatigued" at 0 END, then unconscious when *either* STR or DEX hit 0 but not dead until all three hit zero is pretty clean.

I guess the biggest negative I see with your approach is you create what is basically a "hit point" system where there is never a reduction in your abilities from taking damage (a similar complaint I have about any version of D&D - ok, 4th ed has "bloodied" which is of questionable value at times).

Again though, it is a very interesting and I think workable approach.

 

[BP]

This is very close to the mechanic I first houseruled

Ala Vargrz's STR+END, as I didn't really see DEX as part of 'health'.

However, I still wanted to apply negative DMs to reflect injury, and the system is designed for 3 stats. So -1 DM to all tasks/combat when it went below 50%, and health could go down to -7 (-8 or less being 'dead'), adding this negative amount to DM along the way. So -9 DM = 'death'.

Further, negative health accounted for 'blood loss', i.e., internal or external bleeding, or loss of circulation (pressure) due to cauterized wounds. Each round, any negative health would get 1 point worse (unless treated). Each round, an END check needed to be made to retain consciousness. Once unconscious, first aid check would need to be successful to restore consciousness.

Normal successful first aid (Medic) check would halt this, adding back Effect points. In the event of 'death', a Medic check, begun within 15 minutes, could 'revive' if Effect was high enough to get back to -7 or more, or if Effect was Exceptional (+6). Over 15 minutes, Difficulty level increased for each 15.

I also used END+INT for 'knock out'* - applicable only to 'impact' type injuries (i.e. didn't apply for energy weapons). Amount of damage over END+INT is rounds unconscious (plus the current one).

A first aid (Medic) check (no minimal skill - slap 'em silly for the unskilled) could restore to consciousness earlier. (Per round, multiple people could try.)

All this replaced the 'serious' injury rules paragraph and optional KO rule, but I retained most of the post combat recovery rules (for a while).

 

[locarno24]

I do not like, never have actually, the thought that you reduce stat (str, dex, end) when you are hurt.

Fair enough. Personally, I like that about traveller.

Ala Vargrz's STR+END, as I didn't really see DEX as part of 'health'.

I sort of agree, but would argue that it's a perfect part of 'injuries' - 'I have been shot in the leg, therefore I can no longer pass Athletics (Coordination) checks' makes perfect sense to me.

The one thing I'm not quite sure about is how you split damage between the two stats once your END is gone.

 

[tneva82]

I do not like, never have actually, the thought that you reduce stat (str, dex, end) when you are hurt.

I personally like it. I doubt many can operate as well when bullet has gone through body afterall. Plus it discourages players from getting into too many gunfights and look for other methods.

 

[Thile]

Interesting approach Thile... but I agree about the simplicity of how MGT handles it.
I guess the biggest negative I see with your approach is you create what is basically a "hit point" system where there is never a reduction in your abilities from taking damage (a similar complaint I have about any version of D&D - ok, 4th ed has "bloodied" which is of questionable value at times).

Again though, it is a very interesting and I think workable approach.

Yes, i am aware of this (after the first player test yesterday) , and I am trying to improve on it. Thank you.

 

[BP]

Ala Vargrz's STR+END, as I didn't really see DEX as part of 'health'.

I sort of agree, but would argue that it's a perfect part of 'injuries' - 'I have been shot in the leg, therefore I can no longer pass Athletics (Coordination) checks' makes perfect sense to me.

The one thing I'm not quite sure about is how you split damage between the two stats once your END is gone.

Totally agree that DEX reflects 'injuries' in the RAW, however, if you read the whole post, my system accounted for DMs for injury differently. In fact, applying to coordination/dexterity across the board with strength and endurance.

Handling it separately as in the RAW is actually quite unrealistic in general. Most lost of dexterity comes with loss of ability to apply force in the manner we are used to, not just loss of range of motion (ex: spranged wrist/ankle - you are still as strong for some tasks, but are unable to apply the strength without further injury). One can rationalize the abstraction any number of ways, of course, but my method also allowed for easily and directly accommodating bleeding - a seriously over-abstract fail on the part of the RAW, IMO.

The reduced DMs with reduced stats is an elegant mechanic - I like it from a design perspective. But from a play perspective it actually means more accounting and complexity and doesn't directly support roleplay (nothing about nature of injuries, for instance). Additionally, it requires more 'rationalization' when it comes to what the reduced stats mean.

Any 2D6 mechanic is gonna have limitations. I used CT's simpler system for most of my life, without even thinking much about it. MgT got me thinking more about mechanics and I've enjoyed tinkering with them to support roleplay even more directly - not because I see them as broke or severely lacking.

 

[palidian]

Why are smart people less likely to loose consciousness?

 

[Easterner]

I also have consciousness: This is End + Int

Palidian is right.

However....

It should be end + Soc. After all breeding Will tell.!

 

[BP]

Why are smart people less likely to loose consciousness?

Because dumb people are half-way there already! :lol:

It made sense at the time - being a mental thing and all! However, like most of these abstractions, it really doesn't hold up well to any scrutiny. 'Stronger' people may do more brute force damage, but that doesn't directly mean anything generally when it comes to injury. Likewise - heart stops, blood pressure drops, etc - generally same effect regardless the person.

 

[Merxiless]

I'm opposed to changes like this on principle.

Playing D&D, I can accept it is fantasy, fight till dead, there's magic.

People say they don't like Traveller's injuries on stats, because it forms a "death spiral."

It feels "real" to me, even if it isn't "realistic."

Too many players of I wade into the horde of orcs (and survive) come to traveller with the dungeons in space idea.

There is no Wading In, in Traveller, and I like it that way.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I do not like, never have actually, the thought that you reduce stat (str, dex, end) when you are hurt.

I have always liked this mechanic, simple and effective. You can certainly add "location to hit tables" or similar, but I don't really see the point.

Theoretically you could have a characer with Str 2, End 2 and Dex 12, which seems very odd, but in practice such unbalanced characters quickly run into problems if they get into a fight.

Egil

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

I kind of like some of the ideas suggested by the OP. Although the original Traveller was my first RPG experience and as such I still have a soft spot for it, the whole way it handles injuries and damage to me always felt too abstracted and hard to visualize what it might really represent. Specifically for example what does a reduction in one stat but not in the other really represent. To me, if someone were to say take moderate injury to his arm, wouldn't they really suffer some reduction in strength, dexterity and endurance?

As such, I kind of like the thought of making a persons overall ability to sustain injury a function of his stats but I also like the idea of doing something different than maybe the basic rules.

To be honest, I think I'd almost maybe prefer something a bit different that might be easier to visualize where rather than rolling some dice to determine the effects of the injury and then trying to back track out some sort of vague idea of what that damage was (ie was the character shot in the leg, did he suffer a concussion etc) maybe instead it might be nice if you instead rolled up something off a table that says "your character suffered a serious leg injury, minus X to all physical stats and decrease all movement by half" or "your character suffered a concussion, - X to all physical and Int stats, and all actions take twice as long", or maybe something along those lines.

Just some thoughts.

Pat

 

[GypsyComet]

maybe instead it might be nice if you instead rolled up something off a table that says "your character suffered a serious leg injury, minus X to all physical stats and decrease all movement by half" or "your character suffered a concussion, - X to all physical and Int stats, and all actions take twice as long", or maybe something along those lines.

Rolemaster comes to mind. It even has charts specific to weapon energy type (plasma hits are no fun at all). If that isn't detailed enough, look up Phoenix Command. My days of tolerating that kind of detail are long passed, but someone might find it useful.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Thanks for the response. I don't think I'd be interested in anything as complex as what I've heard of the Phoenix Command rules, but rather just something that would make it easier for the players to vsualize what has happened to their character.

In some ways, lately I've been thinking that in some ways most RPGs that I've messed around with seem to be put together a bit backwards, in that you kind of roll up some numbers and then are left trying to interpret them in a way that makes sense to you. The problem here being that different people will interpret the stuff differently.

I hope I'm not getting too far off topic from the OP here, but as an example, with regards to Dexterity, in Traveller if you roll up a 10, what does that mean? Does he have the hand-eye coordination of say a professional baseball player? Does he have the grace and poise of a gymnast or dancer? Or, does he have the steady hands and fine "touch" of a surgeon or watchmaker? To me, each of these seem like they might be considered "Dexterous' or "Agile" type people, but they also seem to me to have distinctly different types of "Dexterity" and in game terms I would think that maybe they would have different advantages at different tasks, rather than just assuming "Oh he's got a high dexterity therefor he should get a bonus at safe-cracking", or "He's got a high dexterity therefore he should get an advantage at walking across a narrow ledge" etc.

To me, if instead of just rolling up a number for the base stats, you could roll something up off a table that said something like for Dexterity "has the hand-eye coordination of a professional baseball player - +X for complex physical tasks" or " has the fine "touch' of a surgeon or watchmaker - +X for fine/detailed tasks" etc. Then, after based on the stuff you roll up, you can then derive out the base numbers for other stuff like "how much can the player lift", "how fast can he run", "how much damage can he take before loosing consciousness", etc.

To me combining something like this with a revised "damage" system similar to what the OP stated might make it easier for me (and hopefully others) to get a better feel for who their characters are and what is happening to them in the game.

Just some thoughts

Pat

 

[BP]

Characteristics are defined as innate ability (ignoring Soc) - with the same experience (skill level), someone with a better innate ability is gonna have an edge.

Most of the other things you mention are skills - i.e. athletic, medic, etc. - that might benefit from the innate abilities.

One could break abilities down further, they are an abstraction, after all. For instance, left-handed, right-handed or ambi-dextrous.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

I think that you kind of hit on what I am trying to say. Yes, medic and atheletic, etc may be skills, but there is something innate about the person that may give them a benefit in doing those skills, and these innate abilities seem to be a bit more complex than just saying that this character has a "Dexterity" of X. Specifically, it may be something along the lines of "hand-eye" coordination that gives a ball-player a benefit, while it might be an inherent sense of "poise" or "balance" that aids a gymnast or dancer, or an innate "sense of steadiness" that aids the surgeon or watchmaker.

What trips me up is that I can see that a high level of some innate ability is what may give each of these characters a benefit over others in these areas, but the closest thing in Traveller to call this innate ability is "Dexterity". However, in each case, the innate ability seem distinctly different to me, and as such I don't think I'd feel comfortable with saying that a "Dexterity" of X gives a character an equal benefit in doing things as different as walking a narrow ledge, flying a small craft, or picking a lock or cracking a safe.

In the examples above, I could see that the innate ability that gives the gymnast or dancer a leg up in doing gymnastics or dancing may also give him an advantage in "walking a narrow" ledge, but I'm not sure I see how it would give hime any real benefit in the other examples. Similarly, the fine innate senses of a surgeon or watchmaker may also give them some advantage in cracking a safe or picking a lock, but not really in the other two examples.

And finally, based on some stuff that I've read about the pro baseball player Ted Williams, whose excellent hand-eye coordination and other such innate abilities allowed him to not only be a very skilled ball player but are also credited by some with aiding him in his abilities as a fighter pilot and fighter pilot instructor during WWII and the Korean War.

As such, I could possibly see that a good innate "hand-eye" coordination ability could also aid someone in doing complex physical tasks like piloting a small craft, but I suspect it probably wouldn't necessarily do much for you in terms of cracking a safe or walking a ledge.

As such, my thoughts have been drifting more towards a system where you try and maybe "define what the character is like" and then "derive the numbers that you need" to play the game rather than "rolling up some numbers" and then "try and work out what that means your character is like", which seem to be the way alot of the RPGs that I am familiar with work.

Because of this some of the stuff that the OP mentioned in his initial post, where the ability to sustain damage is based on a characters stats but is not directly tied back to them when assessing the impacts of damage kind of also appeals to me, since in the current system it seems that it may be possible to sustain damage that reduces only one stat but not the others, which makes it a bit hard for me to visualize what is really happening to the character.

As an example, in real life if a person were to suffer a hand injury, would that only affect his dexterity, or would it also maybe affect his strength and endurance as well? Etc.

Anyway just some thoughts, and sorry if this is getting off track from the OP.

Regards

Pat

 

[Ishmael]

Concerning dexterity, one possibility might be to combine stats to differentiate the different aspects of 'dexterity'.
DEX might be balance and hand-eye coordination.
(DEX+STR)/2 might represent quickness and reaction/reflexes ( good for 'snap shooting' )
(DEX+END)/2 might represent steadiness of hand, such as a sniper (aimed shots) or surgeon/watchmaker would have.

I use this with my home-grown combat system based on Azhanti High Lightning and Megatraveller where a combination of dex and str determine the number of AP's, end can be 'traded' for str ( allows bursts of energy at the cost of being wobbly-legged later until the player can rest ) and that the player does not go unconscious until end is gone, thus it is possible to be conscious, but unable to move and bleeding out.

Needless to say, I use the 'stats take damage' where I feel the resulting death-spiral models reality better than fighting at 100% capability until dead

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Thanks. That's a neat idea. I might try that out.

Regards

Pat