Those pesky Minbari

[Nomad]

It didn't strike me at the time, but looking back it was odd that in the first printing of ACtA the Tinashi had more forward NL AD than the Sharlin.

I suppose things had to be rectified, and the Tinashi certainly was too fragile initially. So the Tinashi went from 3 AD to 4 in the general beam upgrade and the Sharlin went to 6 as the next even number...and a monster was created, IMHO.

And not a monster you can ignore, really. The fleet box comes with four of them, its the only contemporary Minbo warship shown in the TV series and there it shows up in numbers. A War PL fleet of five Sharlins does not seem remotely cheesy, just historical.

But frankly, I can't see myself facing off against 20 -30 NL AD in a campaign game - just send one Hermes and fly off the table on turn one, save the fleet for things it can fight and abandon that target.

Or, since I've got a Minbari fleet, assembled and painted (badly), give up on the EA and use that instead.

 

[Obsidian]

But frankly, I can't see myself facing off against 20 -30 NL AD in a campaign game - just send one Hermes and fly off the table on turn one, save the fleet for things it can fight and abandon that target.

Thats one of the things that I think was included in the design thinking that simply doesn't translate well when you consider one off scenarios.

The Minbari's big fleet weakness is their lack of lower PL ships. In campaign games, unless they keep the scenarios at battle and war level they are forced to field some of the less effective ships in their fleet and often in very small numbers. The cumulative effect of this is that they will be hard pressed for resources and struggle to repair the damge done to their bigger ships.

This sort of thing can put a Minbari player in a rather tenous position. 1 bad roll for the scenario PL and they could wind up trying to defend a system with a Teshlan and a wing of Nials. This assumes that they even purchased any ships at this low a level. They could wind up with nothing at all...

 

[Lagavulin]

I certainly agree with this estimate of the problems Minbari would face in a campaign. Just choosing a camapaign fleet becomes an interesting puzzle.

Do I put in many fighters - 1 Nial is a horrible patrol choice and hellish expensive to replace when it dies. I suppose I would buy some just as replacemnts for the ones from my ships which will inevitably die. In the early stages of a campaign that would give me a couple that could be used in patrol/skirmish games if I was unlucky enough to get them.

Torothas - I don't want them but I would have to buy a couple just for the small scenarios. Buy 2 along with a teshlan for battle point and hope to never have to use them ?

How many Sharlins can you actually afford - 2 ?

10 battle points comes out to somehing like:

2 Sharlins
2 Tinashi
3 Tigara/Teshalans
2 Torotha
1 Morshin (just for the cheap Nials)

with 1 point to spare - not an awesome force to cover the whole range of possible battles . Fighter loses alone will eat up RR.

Minbari might be nasty in one offs but in campaigns things don't look nearly so hot - weaken them very much for 1 off games and then you will find them utterly hopeless in campaign play unless you find some compensation here..

 

[Wolfgod]

Absolutely fight Minbari as *small* as you can in campaigns. That's the best chance of beating them - and you can lose a valuable point to a Patrol fight just as easily as a War fight. Minbari in large games are in their element. Try not to fight them there.

That's true for many of the advanced races- Vorlins, Shadows and Minbari are all easier to stomach in small actions.

IMHO, campaign Minbari can be dealt with by sneaky tactics. One-off Minbari are much more frightening.

 

[B5freak]

That's acually a very good point about the campaign balance, but if Mongoose balanced the fleets with Campaigns in mind, where did they get the Centauri fleet from? They have all the one-off Beam nastiness and defensive strength of the Minbari with none of the Campaign drawbacks.

If Mongoose had approached the fleet balance from a campaign perspective I could understand and accept that. Heck, it would make tournaments REALLY interesting since you could play them like mini campaigns, with each game being played at a different random PL. But if all the fleets aren't designed that way (and again I won't even start on Vorlons), we're back to square one.

 

[Obsidian]

but if Mongoose balanced the fleets with Campaigns in mind, where did they get the Centauri fleet from? They have all the one-off Beam nastiness and defensive strength of the Minbari with none of the Campaign drawbacks.

That is most definitely a flaw in my argument.

When they were first released I looked at all the skirmish ships and went "Ok, so the Centauri strategy is to have as many ships with as many guns as possible on the board. Don't go straight at the enemy, try to sneak around the sides were the smaller guns are." Plus with all those twin linked guns the odds of a 6-5 or 6-6 crit was pretty high. In SFoS they redistributed the ships a little bit and I agree with the assesment that their fleet is a real monster. If not for the Minbari Stealth systems they'd be the hands down leader in this game.

 

[Chernobyl]

Centauri are still pretty weak on fighters and on interceptors. Otherwise they're a pretty solid fleet.

Chern

 

[homerun]

I've commented on this before being a centauri player. The centauri's SFOS fleet probably got one of the most uncomplained about boosts from the old ACTAbut that will change. Firepower from the old ACTA raid choices to SFOS is extremely large. ALthough it change some aspects to exactly how it should be by standardizing the battle lasers more, the real thing is the increase in toughness. A centurion was much different and could be torn to pieces easily. Definitely we'll have to see how it plays out but havin lost with Centauri I can say that they can be cheesy just like anybody is but perhaps the root is not just the increase firepower but the increase in toughness and range. the range makes the difference the centauri are much tougher in some cases tougher than earthforce ships but with much longer range weapons. This was to help balance out the weaker ships that usually copliment them but what happens when you decide to field 4 prefects? Some of them needed it like the centurion and the dargan or altarian but some like the prefect are now about as good as any pure combat raid vessel. I stress though that I believe the priority levels is for fleet building so it is good to have ships that don't come apart and lack secondary punch (still a weakness for the centauri). But those weaknesses can be minimized by picking the right fleet.

Perhaps as things go on we can see how we can manage keeping their feel without the centauir balancing their weaker ships so much with strong primus like ships. because if a centauri does not have one tough ship even with the upgrades just like old ACTA they can have a hard time no matter the tactics. So perhaps we can continue to promote the centauri ideal of having one strong ship supplemented by complementary ships but without causing them to rely on one particular ship type.

 

[homerun]

Against fighters yeah thats a definite weakneess and they don't have a lot of ships that carry a large amount of sentris (forces you to pick dargans). Sentri are pretty much needed for fighter duty because otherwise it can take like 10 dice to kill a fighter. They have weakness non-primus cousins are not very tough except for vorchan and come apart quickly. lack of a lot of weapons variety. I'd still like the feel and played right htey remain how they were in the old acta, maintain posiiton herd people for your battle lasers and strike in groups but when done right now it makes it very difficult for the opponent. Plus you can now create cheese fleets. Everyone will have it to a degree but centauri is quite obvious. however they have weaknesses such as fighters the 4 prefect fleet can get stung by frazis with impunity.

As with all things as we playtest ww will probably find whether their weaknesses and flavor balances their strength. I must add though that battle alsers are the Centauri's thing just like missiles for the Ea and interceptors for the Abbai.

Centauri are still pretty weak on fighters and on interceptors. Otherwise they're a pretty solid fleet.

Chern

 

[Target]

Back to the Mimbari maybe their cripple number could be raised since all the shpis they have have a lot more special traits. This could represent that these systems are a little delicate.
On the Centauri, they are strong maybe a little. Only played a few games with them mostly vs EA and generally win because i can Concertrate firepower and those with Boresight can't.
Boresighting is a bit restricting that way.
Fighters don't worry Centauri much as we have raziks now just don't let ships shoot at them as twinlink weapons can make a real mess.
Hull 2 who thought of that. :roll:

 

[homerun]

Not if you don't take them? in a prefect fleet. Using the patrol point is okay but its up to the player. but I agree there are ways to compensate and thats what should be move counter move. As for minbari perhaps higher cripple can be considered, I remember Sharlins having a higher damage threshold even when it had a smaller total damage. 14 I believe.

 

[Target]

I now always take a Corvan or 2 so my ships can take the 5+ and get a reroll on their Battle Lasers. A Prefect only fleet is little supceptible to breaching pods as well. My mate has started take anti fighter missles with breaching pods and now that aux can escort aux have starfuries to escort them into battle. This will work on Mimbari as breaching pods move 6 and mini beam is only anti fighter to 4.

 

[homerun]

This is damn fine idea, damn fine idea. Anybody else try this. I have found the support auxillary craft thing useful. But how viable is it. you can still shoot them on a 5+ dodge roll. Probably have to get close to do it.

As for corvans, their evil in a well constructed centauri fleet. but thats what I eman 4 prefects may be uber but they have weaknesses. Its is there aren't weaknesses to really viably exploit that cuases problems. Centauri are still susceptible to fighters if they don't have much fighter cover unlike many EA ships (Apollos, Omegas, chronos).

I now always take a Corvan or 2 so my ships can take the 5+ and get a reroll on their Battle Lasers. A Prefect only fleet is little supceptible to breaching pods as well. My mate has started take anti fighter missles with breaching pods and now that aux can escort aux have starfuries to escort them into battle. This will work on Mimbari as breaching pods move 6 and mini beam is only anti fighter to 4.

 

[Lagavulin]

Played a large Minbari/Centauri game yesterday. 8.5 battle points a side. Mix of ships as this used up most of our models.

Centauri lost, but it would have been much closer if his lock on dice had been anywhere near average.

Centauri began with an Octurian, a Tertius,2 prefects and large number of other raid and skirish ships, 3 scouts. My Minbari hada Sharlin, Neshatain, Troligan and Tinashi plus a number of Tigaras and Teshlans, 2 torothas just to use them up.

Centauri charged early firing battle lasers looking for a general close range melee - my Tigaras took an early pounding hold of the flanking Vorchans and Darkners. Long range neutron laser fire hurt a number of his ships but killed none - the hull 6, even on ther aid ships limits damge well.

After two turns I was down 2 tigaras and a torotha, the centauri had lost a Vorchan and had 3 raid ships crippled or close to it. turn 3 started the general melee, I lost the Tinashi and the last torotha plus having the last Tigara almost crippled. Centauri lost nothing but had the majority of the raid ships crippled and the Primus badly hit.

Looked bad for the Minbari at this point. However turn 4 I went thro the Centauri main body with the Sharilin and got the Tigara and Neshetan right in the middle of his formation. Winning the initiative helped as did his poor luck in failing to achieve a single lock on bonus with the scouts. The damaged and crippled centauri could only put out limited fire and by the end of the turn he was down to the Octurian, the raid carrier, a couple of altarian variants, on badly hurt, a maximus and the scouts. Being able to fire front and rear neutron lazers on the Sharlin and Veshatan was a big help. Lost the last Tigara and the Teshlan tho.


Game went on for another couple of turns. Ende up with the Centauri getting a damaged but not crippled Octurian thro a jump gate with 2 scouts. I was left with a 50% damaged Sharlin, an almost crippled troligan and barely scratched Neshatan.

very good game, felt pretty close for the first few turns. Would have been really close if my opponent had made reasonnable more scout rolls and lock ons.

On this play Minbari do not look over powered vs Centauri at least. Ok neither of us had perfectly optimised fleets, we used almost everthing we had but it seemed a reasonable test.

Conclusions for anit minbari operations:
1: at least 3 scouts preferably 4 or 5
2: every hull 6 raid ship you can lay your hands on.
3: don't mess about, get in close quickly. You will take hits on the way in so live with it.


On a slightly different note we discussed EA vs Minbari and from now on will be house ruling the Oracle a skimish choice. Compare i to the Narn scout. The Narn is Skirmish and at least equal to the oracle in most respects. Similar hull, same stealth, better weaposn, Oracle has interceptors, shokar had a fighter flight. Having a skirmish scout should help EA significantly.

 

[hacksaaw]

Sorry, but I just don't buy your interpretation of the PL system. The EA never fought in a war before 2255? Because they don't have any War-level choices with in service dates before then. (And boy, don't tell the Dilgar or Minbari.) The Drazi have never fought a war, ever? Not even against the Dilgar? Guess they sat that one out with the Vree...

jeez, its pretty simple. things do change. ships lists change, and hte ability to field a fleet changes. If your using the current fleet lists and doing something from before the minbari war, then your going to have novas and the like in the EA fleet. and a war level game will see that you can get aot of them. Or the Drazi as a race would be assumed to have alot of ships and prefer to field large fleets of many ships when necesssary instead of building a huge ship.

Instead of the rather riduclous effect of every race having ships of every class all balanced against one another. Bland boredom is what htis creates. Hey we need a new module with light fast dreadnoughts this time instead of fast light dreadnoughts we did last time.

the Sharlin should be a bear. the show makes it very clear that most of hte EA ships dont have a great chance against them. the shadow destroyers, or the warlocks hey feel free to give these a better chance. but an Omega, get real its babylon 5 and that means you going to need alot of luck to even come out alive.

balance is fine, but dont destroy the whole point of having a bab-5 game.

again i repeat the best way to provide balance for tournament players is to create tournament fleets. This also keeps the minmaxing fleet designers from breaking the tournament scene. it allows people to have an idea of what they will face, and brings far more balance than can ever be achieved by allowing the tournament players to design and bring thier own fleets.

i like this game. just as a historical game doesnt allow you to move your spitfires at mach 3, respect the source material first and formost.

make the game fun, quick to play, and easy to get into as it is now. while still keeping it true to the shows.

otherwise you get SFB, and that is not the path to follow.

 

[Cailet]

balance is fine, but dont destroy the whole point of having a bab-5 game.

To play a fun game?

No?

Quite frankly, for me a game exists t have even matches in. My skill versus yours, not your Ubersharlinofdeathpwnsalll versus my pissy little Hyperion.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Quite frankly, for me a game exists t have even matches in. My skill versus yours, not your Ubersharlinofdeathpwnsalll versus my pissy little Hyperion.

To be fair, a single Hyperion against a Sharlin probably should be toast, whichever way you look at it

 

[herdleader]

balance is fine, but dont destroy the whole point of having a bab-5 game.

To play a fun game?

No?

Quite frankly, for me a game exists t have even matches in. My skill versus yours, not your Ubersharlinofdeathpwnsalll versus my pissy little Hyperion.

Play that scenario. If you live 3 turns or get off the board then you win. Then you swap sides and play again. Can you do better than your opponent did? That's where your skill, and some luck, comes in. The ships don't have to be balanced but the victory conditions do.

 

[Nomad]

To be fair, a single Hyperion against a Sharlin probably should be toast, whichever way you look at it

True, but under the PL system, three Hyperions should have a fighting chance against a Sharlin, and I'm not convinced that they do.

On the subject of the Hyperion, another thing I don't like is the disparity in damage points:

Raid - Level ships

Centari........Sulust class, 35/6
Narn............Rongoth class 40/8
Minbari.........Tigara class, 24/5, but has 4+ Stealth so is in practice tougher
Abbai...........Bimith class, 40/8
Brakiri..........Batrado class, 64/10
Drazi............Solarhawk, 18/5 - Fair enough, but the ship is only Raid level due to that damn great gun, and her life expectancy in action is said to be low
Vree.............Xill class, 30/7
Raiders.........Battlewagon, 35/10
EA................Hyperion, 24/6. Has interceptors (like the Sulust and Bimith) which are no help when she's being laced from halfway across the table by CAF! 'ed beams.

The Hyperion did have her damage score raised in SFoS, but not by as much as her opponents. I would not expect EA ships to be as tough as, say, Narns, but is there anything in the canon that says they're that much more fragile than the Centauri?

"After all, there is not (......) a stronger defence than the inability to crush the human spirit".

Which is a pity: if there was, the Hyperions might be able to give a better account of themselves.

A similarly unflattering comparison may be made for the Omega and Chronos classes.

 

[Tredrick]

Nomad, you also need to compare the weapons loadouts on those ships and be sure to account for fire arcs as well.

the Hyperion maybe able to dish out a lot more damage.

I'm not saying it is so, but you do need to look at it, like you did for the Solarhawk.