Those pesky Minbari

[Lagavulin]

I have come to this thread alittle late and am not sure if this point has been explored (I hahve read a chunk of the posts but far from all). My group plays mostly campaign games and as a player with a Minbari fleet I can see some major pains here for the Minbari.

Poor choices at lower PLs look like making smaller scenarios difficult - a 4 pt patrol scenario would be a mightmare (2 Torothas ? a single Tigara ?)

Replacing fighters is hideously inefficient for Minbari - my Tigara's or Sharlins will never get replacement nials as it is just not econmic at 5RR a flight.

A Minabi 10pt battle fleet to cover 2 all potential scenarios will certainly not contain many Sharlins - maybe 1, and I expect my opponent to continully try to minimise battle sizes to make deploying my larger ships difficult.

Even outside campaigns I do not see my regular oponents being too scared of the Sharlins. The smaller Minbai ships are nice but the Sharlin seems to be regarded ad the main offender. One centauri of my acquantance has been known to use 15 ships at battle level - 5 raid 10 skirmish. If I go with 2 Sharlins and a friend against that lot I would not expect to live long. The ISA option of 8 whitestars and 4 Vree stealthed scouts is even less appealing. Narn have E mines which them help somewhat plus good skirmish ships to mob the target - 5 dagkars and 10 ka'tocs (or 8 and 2 scouts)?.

The Minbari fleet does indeed look very dangerous - fighting it with EA or some of the minor races looks very difficult, but I am not sure it is a broken as some people indicate.

 

[B5freak]

Well, I've said my peace on this issue and am frankly too busy at the moment to go back over everything. The previous posts and battle reports from myself and others pretty much covers all the bases, so I'm in wait mode now until the next S&P comes out.

At this point I'm sincerely hoping that we don't get a repeat of the same tactics we've already discussed here ad nauseam or a demonstration battle report involving a woefully underpowered Minbari fleet vs a fleet we already know is strong against them such as Centauri.

 

[Rorschach]

Mind the language son, this is a family forum!

Sorry...I hear it so often on BBC-America I forget it carries more weight to the British ear. ;-)

 

[hacksaaw]

Also, this notion of "Level of commitment" is a new one on me. In war you commit what you THINK you need to win a battle, or at least as much as you have available. You don't sit around deciding if this is a mere skirmish, or an all out full assault, and I can only bring so much accordingly. If I KNOW my enemy will defeat me if I only bring X amount, then I try to bring X times two.

Your not getting it, that is allready what your race would commit to a war level fleet. It may not be enough, but its what you can bring to the dance. You dont get to double it because your race may not have the resources to commit that much.

This is the problem with all the point total systems. They rarely include the actual cost to that race for deploying certain ships into action. That cool Battle cruiser might be great and just the thing, but you may only have 2 in the fleet and they are allready committed in other areas. To much freedom in selecting units, to much minmaxing.

And no i dont think the Minbari should win every time, but from what we know from the source material, they appear likely to have a major technical advantage over the EA and other younger races. Shadows and Vorlons dont seem to have much problem targeting them.

then i also agree that most of what we see the Minbari flying around in are Sharlins, and i dont agree that they should have had this huge expansion in the fleet list, but that came out of the SFB impact upon the AOG guys.

And if the game does not do its damndest to portray the events of the show, then again why waste the money on the licensing and why produce something that is just a made up game that has bab-5 slapped on it but doesnt have bab-5 in its game play.

I also made a suggestion over how to make official tournament fleets, that are not minmaxed, but are hopefully balanced and reflect the different abilities and weaknesses of the various races. Just take the whole building tourney fleets out of the players hands, and do like the SFB folks did in creating their tourney ships.

Yes Balance is important, but you can develop that without breaking the source material, and for a game with babylon 5 on the cover, you need to make sure that its reflecting the show. Just as a sherman is not going to do well driving straight up to a King Tiger in open terrain during a ww2 game, so an EA fleet will have problems with the Minbari.

 

[Xorrandor]

Your not getting it, that is allready what your race would commit to a war level fleet. It may not be enough, but its what you can bring to the dance. You dont get to double it because your race may not have the resources to commit that much.

Sorry, but I just don't buy your interpretation of the PL system. The EA never fought in a war before 2255? Because they don't have any War-level choices with in service dates before then. (And boy, don't tell the Dilgar or Minbari.) The Drazi have never fought a war, ever? Not even against the Dilgar? Guess they sat that one out with the Vree...

I'm afraid the PL system is a point system for ACtA, however much you want to turn it into a narrative tool. Not that the ability to exchange points between PLs should have left that in doubt in the first place.

 

[Locutus9956]

Yes the points PL system IS a point system but what I find it does is rather than set a 'this ship is worth this much and is precicely x powerful and y effective' (and so on) it give more of a this ship is this valuable in an engagement of such and such a size feel.

Its not a flat out fixed point system but rather a more general measure of relative value, not so much between individual ships but more of overall fleets.

(Each War level ship is not an exact equivalent for each OTHER war level ship, but a 5 Point War fleet is usually pretty balanced against most other races 5 point war fleets (or at least it CAN be, obviously if you make stupid choices youre not going to come off too well )

 

[Karhedron]

I have to agree that there needs to be a balance between gameplay and representing what was shown on the screen.

If you want to stay true to the show then some of the "historical" scenarios are the way to go. Want to represent the Shadow rampage through Brakiri space? Fine, field equal numbers of Shadow Vessels and Avokis (sp). But remember to put in conditions allowing the Brakiri a chance of winning. Maybe they can count a victory if any of their vessels manage to make a strategic withdrawl rather than being cut to ribbons.

But for tournement play or those who like "balanced" games this just isn't feasible. For the same reson I support the extra ships in the lists. Most races had only a couple of different ships ever shown on screen. Even the EA only had about half a dozen at most. The game is based on the B5 universe but it is also meant to be fun. More ships increase the diversity and make the game more challenging. If each race had only a few ships then it would pretty quickly become dull.

I think Mongoose have done a fair job overall but the PL system is perhaps not the best choice. This is because it forces ships into bands and each band includes a doubling of the vessel's overall capabilities. A true point based system would allow for more powerful races to have better ships but at a proportional points cost. Simmilarly you could more accurately reflect the value of a Nova as being somewhere between a Hyperion and an Omega.

 

[homerun]

Keep in mind though some of those are instructive because some people have tried to disprove this mainly through playing centauri in correctly. So I don't think it was a waste of time. B5freak I think you've done a good job and I think you are right that its best to wait and see if mongoose is convinced by this thread or if S&P has anything that will change peoples minds. Maybe experimental rules iwll come out who knows.

One thing I want to know do you think the main problem is EA versus Minbari. this will help narrow things down and perhaps open up further solutions. But if you think a lot of the other races (excluding centauri) don't have a chance then it might be instructive to hear what you hav eseen. I'll be posting a battle report today with an EA fleet and I don't think that 1 sharlin, 2 tinashis, and 3 teshlans is an underpowered fleet. If you think so then I'd like to hear why.

Well, I've said my peace on this issue and am frankly too busy at the moment to go back over everything. The previous posts and battle reports from myself and others pretty much covers all the bases, so I'm in wait mode now until the next S&P comes out.

At this point I'm sincerely hoping that we don't get a repeat of the same tactics we've already discussed here ad nauseam or a demonstration battle report involving a woefully underpowered Minbari fleet vs a fleet we already know is strong against them such as Centauri.

 

[B_Steele]

Perhaps players should also look into playing some other scenarios that do not necessarily involve lashing out immediately at each other?

Sure, the Minbari are rock solid in a straight up scrap, but ever try to have their nearly-always-outnumbered fleets protect a strategic target, or defend a planet?

It is another story altogether.

Everything has its place, sometimes you must look past the problem to find it. Hence my tagline signature...

-Bry, going back to work...or his Keeper will punish him.

 

[lastbesthope]

I am pretty sure he calls them jumppoints since Sheridan immedialty asks if it is the Sharlin jumping in to help.

Lenier says: "Im picking up a disturbance in local space, READS LIKE a jump point forming"

I may be wrong here, but I thought Tal and I were referring to the battle for secession in Season 3 "Severed Dreams" The conversation in that is between Sheriodan and Corwin. What were you thinking of?

LBH

 

[lastbesthope]

Mind the language son, this is a family forum!

Sorry...I hear it so often on BBC-America I forget it carries more weight to the British ear. ;-)

Heym, I'm not overly offeded, I dunno about the relative levels of offense, but there are kiddies around here, or could be so lets all keep it clean :lol:

My retort was alittle on the harsh side, so I owe you an apology too. So we're all good here, move along :wink:

LBH

 

[B5freak]

Homerun,

I've seen lots of fights, but have honestly focused my attention on EA. When Minbari Battle selections (Tinashi) can reliably blow up an EA Raid choice (Hyperion) in Turn 1, and a frontline "Ship of the Wall" at that, it gets my attention.

In all fairness, I don't know how the other races will fare, but the equation of overwhelming Beam firepower, long range, a full fore arc, and a defense that's nigh impenetrable for the first 1-2 turns of the game is definitely weighted in the Minbari's favor.

EA is out of luck.

Narn may have a chance, but they've got Ionic burst e-mines to keep Minbari off of Concentrate Firepower!, a Skirmish PL Scout, Ship Breakers, Ion torpedos, and Mag Guns to make those shots that get through count, and higher Hull, Dam, and Crew than most EA ships of equivalent PL.

Centauri, as we've noted, can throw A LOT of Beam dice at the same range as the Minbari, and through a full Fore arc. They've also got very nice Patrol PL Scouts, Dogfight +3 fighters, and good armour and Dam/Crew levels as well (again better on average than EA of the same PL).

Vorlons.....well, they've got issues all their own.

Shadows have a very good chance, if they can phase in from hyperspace. If they have to close, they've got about as much chance as they do against Vree, which isn't much.

Vree, Drazi, Brakiri, Abbai, haven't had a chance to try those myself.

1 Sharlin, 2 Tinashi, and 3 Teshlan (5 Battle?) is exactly what I'd call a good playtest fleet. As we've found in recent playtesting, Stealth isn't really the problem, it's Beam firepower, and your fleet has plenty of it. 2 Tinashi make a very nice wolf pack btw. I'd suggest running them straight across your opponent's lines. Together, they should blow away a Raid a turn, and have a fair chance of at least crippling any EA Battle selection you'd care to try them against.

As to playing them in a defensive scenario. I'm willing to try it at next opportunity, but don't think the outcome will be too different from a straight heads-up. After all, the enemy has to come to me now. :twisted:

 

[homerun]

Thanks like I said I think you are doing your best to promote the game and make it fun for all players. Not that others aren't but I've impressed with somethings you've said. Thats why I was asking your opinion since you seem to have a patient and concerned attitude toward this. I jus wanted to know what was your experience. I am currently using that combination of Sharlin, 2 tinashis, 3 teshlan as a baseline there are cheesier ones but i felt they were missing something and I figured if anybody could stare down the barrels of 20 neutron lasers then it would be worth it. I have playtested one battle with some friends and plan to do more. Will post soon sorry, haven't had a lot of time.

Homerun,

I've seen lots of fights, but have honestly focused my attention on EA. When Minbari Battle selections (Tinashi) can reliably blow up an EA Raid choice (Hyperion) in Turn 1, and a frontline "Ship of the Wall" at that, it gets my attention.

In all fairness, I don't know how the other races will fare, but the equation of overwhelming Beam firepower, long range, a full fore arc, and a defense that's nigh impenetrable for the first 1-2 turns of the game is definitely weighted in the Minbari's favor.

EA is out of luck.

Narn may have a chance, but they've got Ionic burst e-mines to keep Minbari off of Concentrate Firepower!, a Skirmish PL Scout, Ship Breakers, Ion torpedos, and Mag Guns to make those shots that get through count, and higher Hull, Dam, and Crew than most EA ships of equivalent PL.

Centauri, as we've noted, can throw A LOT of Beam dice at the same range as the Minbari, and through a full Fore arc. They've also got very nice Patrol PL Scouts, Dogfight +3 fighters, and good armour and Dam/Crew levels as well (again better on average than EA of the same PL).

Vorlons.....well, they've got issues all their own.

Shadows have a very good chance, if they can phase in from hyperspace. If they have to close, they've got about as much chance as they do against Vree, which isn't much.

Vree, Drazi, Brakiri, Abbai, haven't had a chance to try those myself.

1 Sharlin, 2 Tinashi, and 3 Teshlan (5 Battle?) is exactly what I'd call a good playtest fleet. As we've found in recent playtesting, Stealth isn't really the problem, it's Beam firepower, and your fleet has plenty of it. 2 Tinashi make a very nice wolf pack btw. I'd suggest running them straight across your opponent's lines. Together, they should blow away a Raid a turn, and have a fair chance of at least crippling any EA Battle selection you'd care to try them against.

As to playing them in a defensive scenario. I'm willing to try it at next opportunity, but don't think the outcome will be too different from a straight heads-up. After all, the enemy has to come to me now. :twisted:

 

[B5freak]

Homerun,

No problem. Thanks for the feedback. Glad to see someone reads my posts. :wink:

Can't wait to hear how your game goes.

 

[Obsidian]

As we've found in recent playtesting, Stealth isn't really the problem, it's Beam firepower, and your fleet has plenty of it

Now that you say it, I think that may be exactly the problem. In the first printing most everyone viewed beams as pretty wimpy. They were described as causing "legendary damage", but most of us could get 2 - 3 hits out of them at most. In short, they stunk and low AD was to blame. In response we saw the beefing up of Beam weapons across the board.

In the case of ships like the Sharlin though, that jump from 2 AD to 6 AD seems to have been a bit much. I wonder if either dropping it to 4 AD or removing the Precise will make it a little more tolerable. 6 Beam AD is scary, but its the criticals that make it deadly.

 

[emperorpenguin]

As we've found in recent playtesting, Stealth isn't really the problem, it's Beam firepower, and your fleet has plenty of it

Now that you say it, I think that may be exactly the problem. In the first printing most everyone viewed beams as pretty wimpy. They were described as causing "legendary damage", but most of us could get 2 - 3 hits out of them at most. In short, they stunk and low AD was to blame. In response we saw the beefing up of Beam weapons across the board.

In the case of ships like the Sharlin though, that jump from 2 AD to 6 AD seems to have been a bit much. I wonder if either dropping it to 4 AD or removing the Precise will make it a little more tolerable. 6 Beam AD is scary, but its the criticals that make it deadly.

I remember pre-SFOS draft arguing for the Sharlin to go up from 2AD to 4AD. When I saterted playtesting SFOS I was horrified by the 6AD on the Sharlin, alas they took no notice...

For me the issue isn't stealth per se, although I'd prefer the +1 stealth at long range to be at 20"+ with a corresponding -1 stealth at under 10",
the problem is that Minbari ships received too much extra damage points and firepower in SFOS
just compare the neshatan to the sharlin, the sharlin is far better

 

[Rorschach]

For me the issue isn't stealth per se, although I'd prefer the +1 stealth at long range to be at 20"+ with a corresponding -1 stealth at under 10",

For our local "fixes", in lieu of further Official Guidance, we're looking at both this modest Stealth tweak, and dropping the Sharlin to 4AD, and the Tinashi's to 2 or 3AD. Then we look to see that there's not some overall list imbalance created (like suddently its WAY better to take a Troligan or something), maybe tweak similar to a variant, and we've got a still rock hard scary fleet that isn't Way Too Much.

Similar might be done for Centauri, as I keep winning too easily with them. ;-)

Then its on to firming up Vorlons, and looking hard at possible Vree abuses.

 

[B5freak]

Obsidian & Penguin,

I don't see the problem as residing in the Sharlin. I see the Tinashi as the main culprit of Minbari uber-beaminess. I agree that the 6AD Sharlin is ugly, but as a War choice I believe it probably should be.

Pre-SFoS, some felt the Tinashi wasn't survivable enough as a Battle point. This was largely because of the 4+ hull. Offensively the Tinashi was pretty nice and felt about right with 3AD of NL at 20". Now that the Tinashi has 5+ Hull and more Dam/Crew, the additional AD and 5" range on the NL seems to have put it over the top. I find that it's now somewhere between a Battle and a War. Actually, the same could be said of the Primus, Sulust, and Prefect over on the Centauri side.

 

[homerun]

Yeah the problem with beam weapons is at first they were too weak but with luck you can just go on a roll and maul your opponent. The more dice especially with concentrate all fire the more this is likely to happen. Hitting on the first set of dice makes a huge difference in firepower and the more hits the better it is obviously. Now I am not asking for all beam weapons to be nerfed but it definitely bears to look at. I don't know if all centauri beam boats are bad primus was always nasty beforehand. But definitely the new beam weapons are great but they can on on lucky rolls vaporize even tough ships. I like the extra firepower it makes it worthwhile but it you might have to examine certain ships. being a centauri player I am loathe to change them that much but i agree that certain ships like the Sullust and Prefect maybe just too tough. The one thing to keep in mind is certain ships are made to be damage sponges to balance out the fraility of the fleet. the centauri are sitlla bit fragile but they are not nearly as vulnerbale to it anymore if you pick the right fleets. But anybody can make a cheese fleet if they want to. The point is it a cheese fleet or is it just the normal fleet. When you can go cheesier from there then you might have a problem. I have lost against Narn but i will try more against other races to see how they match up. But I guess the centauri are guilty of beaminess (I love them though).

As we've found in recent playtesting, Stealth isn't really the problem, it's Beam firepower, and your fleet has plenty of it

Now that you say it, I think that may be exactly the problem. In the first printing most everyone viewed beams as pretty wimpy. They were described as causing "legendary damage", but most of us could get 2 - 3 hits out of them at most. In short, they stunk and low AD was to blame. In response we saw the beefing up of Beam weapons across the board.

In the case of ships like the Sharlin though, that jump from 2 AD to 6 AD seems to have been a bit much. I wonder if either dropping it to 4 AD or removing the Precise will make it a little more tolerable. 6 Beam AD is scary, but its the criticals that make it deadly.[/q
uote]

 

[homerun]

The primus actually has a big weakness lack of secondary firepower in between BLs hurt but I usually need other ships to finish them off or lots of beams. Some beginners who try to use their twin arrays get blown away they are more defensive wepaons. The one that is scary is the sullust and prefect. What exactly is the prefects weakness, 3 bls, 4 matter cannons, tough hull good damage cap. I'm not complaining and I don't want centauri nerfed but i can definitely see why people might complain about it. If there i sany centauri ship that is cheesy its probably the prefect, My brother didn't realize how good it was until it was plastering his Narn, he said that things supposed to be raid!!!

Obsidian & Penguin,

I don't see the problem as residing in the Sharlin. I see the Tinashi as the main culprit of Minbari uber-beaminess. I agree that the 6AD Sharlin is ugly, but as a War choice I believe it probably should be.

Pre-SFoS, some felt the Tinashi wasn't survivable enough as a Battle point. This was largely because of the 4+ hull. Offensively the Tinashi was pretty nice and felt about right with 3AD of NL at 20". Now that the Tinashi has 5+ Hull and more Dam/Crew, the additional AD and 5" range on the NL seems to have put it over the top. I find that it's now somewhere between a Battle and a War. Actually, the same could be said of the Primus, Sulust, and Prefect over on the Centauri side.