Those pesky Minbari
- Thread starter Karlopopoli
- Start date
Phew, a few pages to catch up on there!
@Jhary - you seem to want something divorced from the show, which makes me ask - why are you playing a B5 game. I'm sure many of us play the game BECAUSE it is B5 and therefore expect it to have the feel of B5. Therefore I do not want my Sharlin on an equal footing with a Warlock, nor for that matter should a Shadow crusier be matched to a Sharlin.
@Wulf - credit to you
. I lot of what I feel has been summed up by this man!
@whoever was comparing whining about the poor tournament players....
I don't know the figures, but I'd be surprised to find that more players buy stuff that ARE tournement players than are not, so, as some one put it, if its making the $/£/€/¥ that counts, they'll likely lose (now thats setting myself up for a statistical comeback).
Pl vs. Pts. - The PL system gets well defended, and justifibly, because it is quick and simple to use. But to expect to able to balance a host of ships in 5 levels and retain a feel for the differences is just asking too much - decide which you want.
@Jhary - you seem to want something divorced from the show, which makes me ask - why are you playing a B5 game. I'm sure many of us play the game BECAUSE it is B5 and therefore expect it to have the feel of B5. Therefore I do not want my Sharlin on an equal footing with a Warlock, nor for that matter should a Shadow crusier be matched to a Sharlin.
@Wulf - credit to you
. I lot of what I feel has been summed up by this man! @whoever was comparing whining about the poor tournament players....
I don't know the figures, but I'd be surprised to find that more players buy stuff that ARE tournement players than are not, so, as some one put it, if its making the $/£/€/¥ that counts, they'll likely lose (now thats setting myself up for a statistical comeback).
Pl vs. Pts. - The PL system gets well defended, and justifibly, because it is quick and simple to use. But to expect to able to balance a host of ships in 5 levels and retain a feel for the differences is just asking too much - decide which you want.
I'd rather play a balanced game thankyou.
A lot of people who leave GW games cite 'codex creep' as a reason. In other words, factions are not balanced. If B5 isn't balanced, eventually it'll drive me off and I won't play.
Generally I'm a roleplayer rather than a rollplayer but if I'm playing a pick-up game I want an even fight. If I want to play a last stand I'll play the Battle of the Line or I'll play a handicap match, not the basic CTA scenario.
Right, this game is based on B5 and to some extent represents the show, but then (to use the GW analogy again) in the 'show' Space Marines can defeat pretty much anything on a one-to-one basis, so they are toned down in the game in order to balance the game.
I'd rather see Minbari be downgraded a lttle than see them become pure dominance. Because under the PL system, those are our options.
A lot of people who leave GW games cite 'codex creep' as a reason. In other words, factions are not balanced. If B5 isn't balanced, eventually it'll drive me off and I won't play.
Generally I'm a roleplayer rather than a rollplayer but if I'm playing a pick-up game I want an even fight. If I want to play a last stand I'll play the Battle of the Line or I'll play a handicap match, not the basic CTA scenario.
Right, this game is based on B5 and to some extent represents the show, but then (to use the GW analogy again) in the 'show' Space Marines can defeat pretty much anything on a one-to-one basis, so they are toned down in the game in order to balance the game.
I'd rather see Minbari be downgraded a lttle than see them become pure dominance. Because under the PL system, those are our options.
Good point. I've been focusing on the EA myself as I viewed them as the biggest challenge and the most likely match up for players. People don't talk much about a Centauri Vs. Vree game, but they'll spend hours on a Centauri Vs. Narn game. Just look at the threads by Scimitar and his wife Kathy for example.
If anything, the area where the EA are lacking right now is in the PL of their scouts. Drop the Oracle and Delphi to Skirmish level.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
One obvious thing springs to mind with the EA's main problem vs. the Minbari.
Look at the EA fleet for a minute. Now what about that fleet jums out at you as to WHY they are tough little SOB's and hard to kill?
Interceptors. Bucket loads of them.
Now along come the Minbari.... "Interceptors... how 'quaint'. FIRE THE LASERS!!!!"
Shred! Maim! Chew! etc....
In my oppinion thats the main problem. EA dont REALLY have any more trouble with stealth than anyone else (and they get plenty of chances for scanners to full as they can take about a million fighters if they want). They just suffer against Minbari weaponry as nearly ALL of it seems perfectly designed to negate EA ships defences. An idea might be to let interceptors work against mini beams but at half strenght or something? Or maybe only not work within 10" or something.
It just seems to me that the main problem is not stealth atall (thats just an easy scapegoat) but rather the Minaris overwhelming weapons tech advantage (just play a few games against various races and youll start to notice that they only start to seem broken against the 'lower tech' (weapons wise) races in the game (such as the EA and the League)
Of course the first ones are the noteable exception here, but dont get me started on that again
(I ticked 'they'd be better if the Vorlons were any good).
On that note, when reading the poll results it might be worth considering that I suspect most people who chose that last option probably feel similarly to myself that the Minbari are NOT overpowered and just that they seem it when facing the ancient races.
Computer, end rant...
Look at the EA fleet for a minute. Now what about that fleet jums out at you as to WHY they are tough little SOB's and hard to kill?
Interceptors. Bucket loads of them.
Now along come the Minbari.... "Interceptors... how 'quaint'. FIRE THE LASERS!!!!"
Shred! Maim! Chew! etc....
In my oppinion thats the main problem. EA dont REALLY have any more trouble with stealth than anyone else (and they get plenty of chances for scanners to full as they can take about a million fighters if they want). They just suffer against Minbari weaponry as nearly ALL of it seems perfectly designed to negate EA ships defences. An idea might be to let interceptors work against mini beams but at half strenght or something? Or maybe only not work within 10" or something.
It just seems to me that the main problem is not stealth atall (thats just an easy scapegoat) but rather the Minaris overwhelming weapons tech advantage (just play a few games against various races and youll start to notice that they only start to seem broken against the 'lower tech' (weapons wise) races in the game (such as the EA and the League)
Of course the first ones are the noteable exception here, but dont get me started on that again
(I ticked 'they'd be better if the Vorlons were any good).On that note, when reading the poll results it might be worth considering that I suspect most people who chose that last option probably feel similarly to myself that the Minbari are NOT overpowered and just that they seem it when facing the ancient races.
Computer, end rant...
To Right Hand of God:
You're not hearing Vorlon players complaining about fighting against Minbari because no Vorlons have managed to survive two turns against Minbari. The Vorlons are over on the "Those Pathetic Vorlons" thread drowning their tears in ale.
Centauri have a chance, ISA have a chance, Vree have a chance (I think, need to test that one myself), even a properly kitted out Narn may have a chance, but there's still a lot of luck involved. Centauri have a chance because they can throw twice as many Beam dice as the Minbari, have access to a high-Stealth Patrol Scout, and can field fighters that match Nials 1-for-1 in a dogfight. The ISA has a chance largely because of their dodge. I still need to work through Vree and Narn but I think they'll be a very difficult proposition.
The point is, ok, so I've got a couple fleets that if played REALLY well and consisting of just the right mix of ships can have a chance of defeating the Minbari, so what? That still leaves me with fleets that only have about a 1% chance of defeating a Neutron Laser-heavy Minbari fleet.
I think Laranos' most recent battle report (did you read it?) sums up the problem pretty well. Even reducing their Stealth, the Minbari are still able to wipe out an enemy. I conducted a similar test game on Wednesday using the exact same Stealth modification. We played 3 Battle points of EA vs Minbari. EA had 1 Omega, Two Hyperion, 1 Nova, and 1 Oracle. The Minbari had 2 Tinashi, 1 Teshlan, and 2 Torotha. Pretty much by themselves, the Tinashi managed to wipe out the entire EA fleet by turn 4 (in a game designed for 10 and 12 turn games).
I lost the Torotha and the Teshlan and took some damage on one Tinashi thanks to the Stealth modification, StF!, and Scout, but it was the Minbari firepower that determined the game.
Yes, this was "yet another EA vs Minbari" match-up, because that's where the problem is most obvious. If we're to identify the problem mechanic, then our best bet of finding it is in an EA vs Minbari matchup.
As to the "compromise" sub-thread:
Game balance is not a matter of compromise, it's a matter of numbers. Either the fleets are balance or they aren't. You can compromise as to how the balance is implemented, but at the end of the day, either you've got a set of balanced fleets or you don't. It's kind of like two men on a sinking ship argueing over whether or not the ship is really sinking.
You're not hearing Vorlon players complaining about fighting against Minbari because no Vorlons have managed to survive two turns against Minbari. The Vorlons are over on the "Those Pathetic Vorlons" thread drowning their tears in ale.
Centauri have a chance, ISA have a chance, Vree have a chance (I think, need to test that one myself), even a properly kitted out Narn may have a chance, but there's still a lot of luck involved. Centauri have a chance because they can throw twice as many Beam dice as the Minbari, have access to a high-Stealth Patrol Scout, and can field fighters that match Nials 1-for-1 in a dogfight. The ISA has a chance largely because of their dodge. I still need to work through Vree and Narn but I think they'll be a very difficult proposition.
The point is, ok, so I've got a couple fleets that if played REALLY well and consisting of just the right mix of ships can have a chance of defeating the Minbari, so what? That still leaves me with fleets that only have about a 1% chance of defeating a Neutron Laser-heavy Minbari fleet.
I think Laranos' most recent battle report (did you read it?) sums up the problem pretty well. Even reducing their Stealth, the Minbari are still able to wipe out an enemy. I conducted a similar test game on Wednesday using the exact same Stealth modification. We played 3 Battle points of EA vs Minbari. EA had 1 Omega, Two Hyperion, 1 Nova, and 1 Oracle. The Minbari had 2 Tinashi, 1 Teshlan, and 2 Torotha. Pretty much by themselves, the Tinashi managed to wipe out the entire EA fleet by turn 4 (in a game designed for 10 and 12 turn games).
I lost the Torotha and the Teshlan and took some damage on one Tinashi thanks to the Stealth modification, StF!, and Scout, but it was the Minbari firepower that determined the game.
Yes, this was "yet another EA vs Minbari" match-up, because that's where the problem is most obvious. If we're to identify the problem mechanic, then our best bet of finding it is in an EA vs Minbari matchup.
As to the "compromise" sub-thread:
Game balance is not a matter of compromise, it's a matter of numbers. Either the fleets are balance or they aren't. You can compromise as to how the balance is implemented, but at the end of the day, either you've got a set of balanced fleets or you don't. It's kind of like two men on a sinking ship argueing over whether or not the ship is really sinking.
philogara said:
Do I count as "whining about the poor tournament players"? Possibly, so I'll respond
I'm very unlikely to ever play in a tournament, but feel I still qualify as a "tournament player" for the purposes of this discussion (and for buying decisions). Why? I don't have huge amounts of free time, and would rather spend that time playing a game than balancing one. And I don't appreciate losing my one "gaming evening" a week to fighting a pointless battle whose outcome was determined the minute the figures hit the table. Win or lose, that game was a waste of my time. (Very useful for playtesting, perhaps, but if I wanted to sign up as a playtester I could do so.) And I'm really not clear that I'm in the minority for feeling so.
I don't even know that you need a statistical comeback, but since you asked for one, here goes. Balanced PL system: tournament players buy (and play pick up games, or actual tournaments), roleplayers buy (and make up their own scenarios based on the PL system), painters buy (and ignore the silly gamers). Unbalanced PL system: tournament players leave, roleplayers buy (and make up their own scenarios based on the PL system), painters buy (and ignore the silly gamers). If the number of tournament players is greater than 0 (and since I count, it is), the balanced PL system makes more money.
If you want unbalanced scenarios, make unbalanced scenarios: a Shadow 10 pt War fleet takes on 5 War points of Narn perhaps, with victory for the Narn being the destruction of one Shadow cruiser. If you want more powerful ships, make them cost multiple slots: a "real" Shadow Cruiser might cost War + Battle, or 2 War. The PL system is a little clunky, but mostly because it's an exponential scale; there's nothing preventing it from being balanced, either by modifying ship stats or allowing multiple slot costs. And starting from a balanced system can only make asymmetric scenario design easier.
Chernobyl said:
You ask, and we shall provide...a Warlock vs. Sharlin match with 5BP fleets was next on my list. I think we'll even play it two ways at the same time - with 4AD instad of 6AD NL's for the real game, and a simultaneuous "What if" for the list as written. Or perhaps the other way around.
Probably play next week and I'll post by next Friday.
I really want to stick with this game if I can...I love the B5 'verse too much. And after I read about the Drazi Monastic Order this morning (the ones who revere the stars, because stars are what you see when someone punches you) I *must* build a Drazi fleet, and have a game to enjoy it in.
The real problem with the Warlock is that it only has two weapon systems capable of engaging the Sharlin at long range (and the missiles are slow loading to boot). If the Sharlin hangs back for a turn or two the Warlock is only going to have a 1-in-6 chance of hitting with those weapon systems. In the meantime the Sharlin will be merrily slicing and dicing with it's neutron laser and scoring ~9 points of damage with each shot on average. Since it is precise that also means you will probably be getting 3 criticals in the mix too.Chernobyl said:
Once the Warlock gets up close its chances improve slightly but the odds are it will already have suffered significant damage while the Sharlin is likely to still be in very good shape. The Warlock could send in its fighters to try and reduce the Minbari stealth but these will have to run a fearsome gauntlet of fusion cannon fire.
I would put serious money on the Sharlin to win in Rorschach's match up.
was actually referring to a Warlock's capabilities on the show. Had Crusade gone on a little longer, we may have seen the warlock in action. As it stands, we really don't know how "advanced" it was...could have been that it would have had little trouble tracking a minbari cruiser.
CHern
CHern
I agree with a lot of points I think perhaps the biggest concern is EA. Brakiri I think do have a chance as well. I am sure adjustments will be made perhaps some of the NLs will lose some dice who knows. I would say keeping talking to mongoose and keep reporting battles. Playing the game will help modify it. I also will try out new things on them to see if there is something being missed. You've obviously put a lot of time in this along with others. I think mongoose doesn't want to disgust you or make you want to not play the game it just may take a bit of time so keep testing and reporting what happens and maybe that will help. Especially describe some manuevers you did like spreading forces into two groups.
I think if a solution can be found with EA things will even out. I think there are numerous ways to approach this and not lose the feel of mibari. Which as you have said you want a challenging minbari fleet not an impossible one. I can understand that what you are citing personal experience and want a fun game. My interest is to give everyone a chance while not losing the tactical feel of the fleet or the race. I think SFOS has done a lot of good stuff and perhaps there are things to be adjusted and perhaps there are things we haven't yet discovered. I applaud your efforts.
I believe battle reports will continue to peak everyone's interest and especially to continually try new tactics. I know you've tried some new wrinkles. I think we'd like to hear them even if they didn't work. I don't think the minbari is too powerful but since SFOS is so new game mechanics often need to be refined and this is probably the issue. Especially for EA so there we can start to test and strategize. the last thing I want to see the minbari nerfed but neither do we want to people give up when they lose initiative. I will be play testing today and will rpeort back.
Thanks.
I think if a solution can be found with EA things will even out. I think there are numerous ways to approach this and not lose the feel of mibari. Which as you have said you want a challenging minbari fleet not an impossible one. I can understand that what you are citing personal experience and want a fun game. My interest is to give everyone a chance while not losing the tactical feel of the fleet or the race. I think SFOS has done a lot of good stuff and perhaps there are things to be adjusted and perhaps there are things we haven't yet discovered. I applaud your efforts.
I believe battle reports will continue to peak everyone's interest and especially to continually try new tactics. I know you've tried some new wrinkles. I think we'd like to hear them even if they didn't work. I don't think the minbari is too powerful but since SFOS is so new game mechanics often need to be refined and this is probably the issue. Especially for EA so there we can start to test and strategize. the last thing I want to see the minbari nerfed but neither do we want to people give up when they lose initiative. I will be play testing today and will rpeort back.
Thanks.
B5freak said:
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Scimitar said:
I just rewatched this scene:
"What kind of tracking systems are we using?"
"Standard XB(P?)7 units, why?"
"Same kind we used during the war but that doesn't make sense. We shouldn't be able to track them at all"
Then he figures it out and sends the message to the lurking friendly Minbari ship through the jumpgate.
It arrives and then Ivanova questions him
"That still doesn't explain how you knew the Trigati wouldn't attack"
JS "It's like I said. One of the problems during the war was that none of our weapons could lock on to the Minbari vessels. They used some kind of stealth technology we were never able to break. So how comeall of a sudden we can track them?"
Now he says 'were never able to break' which is ambiguous as to whether or not they have broken it since, but since the readout he saw was tracking the Minbari, if the EA had sensors capable of beating Minbari stealth why would he assume anything other than that it was the sensors doing their job. Unless he knew B5 had old kit, but if he knew that why would he ask? Apart from for the purposes of explaining it to the viewer, my impression is that Sheridan expected not to be able to track the Minbari at all due to their stealth. Admittedlky, the older tracking units make this more obvious, but I still get the impression Sheridan was surprised at being able to track them because he expected not to be able to because of Stealth.
The other people on B5 are mainly to young to have fought against the Minbari so they would just assume they were able to track them due to propaganda like that we see in one of the ISN episodes where a senator states that we'd have a good chance against the M,inbari now as we are more technologically advanced than during the war.
Sorry, a bit long winded, but I think it supports my statement of stealth being 'expected to work', even if it didn't, because the Minbari turned it off to allow the EA an easy shot, which is what they wanted.
LBH
Ahh, but if he knew that they had nothing that could track the Minbari, he should have figured it out from the start.
This is the problem with referring to the TV series. It gets confusing because the need for plot exposition means someone needs to ask the question that gets the audience information they need. And, sometimes, contradictory information gets slipped in.
I doubt the EA has anything that has cracked Minbari stealth, but it is possibel he knew of some advanced sensors that could have a chance to crack stealth.
This is the problem with referring to the TV series. It gets confusing because the need for plot exposition means someone needs to ask the question that gets the audience information they need. And, sometimes, contradictory information gets slipped in.
I doubt the EA has anything that has cracked Minbari stealth, but it is possibel he knew of some advanced sensors that could have a chance to crack stealth.
In season 4 the Captain of the Aggammemnon tells Sheridan that they have recently been fitted with upgraded sensors, mainly to try and track him down. Now the weight of evidence suggests that the White Stars did not have Minbari stealth systems fitted anyway so whether the post-2261 EA sensors would provide any benefit vs Minbari stealth systems is an open question.Tredrick said:
One thing is certain though, you can bet Earthforce R&D would have put a lot of effort into trying to crack Minbari stealth systems considering how badly earth got beaten in the Earth-Minbari war (well, up until the Minbari surrendered anyway :wink: ). Either way, it is likely Sheridan knew that sensors were an area where upgrades were either anticipated or needed.
He also wanted to check since even with improvements he would not expect to track Minbari stealth. Even with better systems or upgrades in general such sensors would not have been tested not unless the Minbari run around with war ships fully stealthed so people can practice tracking them. Without any operations or tests to be sure they can track them or the minbari had not improved them. Stealth systems like a lot of things that are ECM need to be improved constantly to maintain their edge. its likely the minbari are aware of this. Not arguing that there is not improvement ins sensors since Earth does experience a good jump in tech especially with the warlock which would have the best chance along with the delphi. Without a test it would be hard to know whether they actually worked or not ( not really any minbari tech lying around to test). A good example is the Russians bragging about their night sensor systems on their helicopters but the Kamov Black sharks have terrible night systems and were overhauled with french systems to make them competitive after the block fell and tests showed how bad they were.
Also SHeridian in that episode also clearly states that tracking system never worked properly. Which probably suggests quirks or problems that had to be worked around. It remains to be seen how much better the new system is or does it just work correctly. American WW2 air dropped torpedoes early on sucked like hell, blow up when they hit the water, wouldn't arm, swim under the hull and not explode, not detonate. All kinds of stuff never really thoroughly tested when it was they eventually corrected the problems and overhauled the torpedoes. They were improved but the effect was more they worked properly (ship go boom) instead of being so horribly bad. Americans never really get this done until 1943.
Also SHeridian in that episode also clearly states that tracking system never worked properly. Which probably suggests quirks or problems that had to be worked around. It remains to be seen how much better the new system is or does it just work correctly. American WW2 air dropped torpedoes early on sucked like hell, blow up when they hit the water, wouldn't arm, swim under the hull and not explode, not detonate. All kinds of stuff never really thoroughly tested when it was they eventually corrected the problems and overhauled the torpedoes. They were improved but the effect was more they worked properly (ship go boom) instead of being so horribly bad. Americans never really get this done until 1943.
Karhedron said:
So, I just got home from playing a tournament, and I placed second, with a two ship Minbari fleet. Interestingly, the first place went to the Brakiri...by four points.
anyway:
5point raid game.
Fleet:
Sharkaan
Leshath
first game Vs. Minbari
Sharlin and two Torothas
I lurked as far away as possible and took shots at the torothas, most of which were negated by stealth. as soon as they hit 24" my Leshath started painting targets, which worked well against the Torothas.
End: Sharkaan (barely damaged), Leshath (1 hit away from being crippled) vs Sharlin.
Second game was pretty close to the first, except that he jumped out as I was coming in to lay a killing blow. It was also against Minbari, I just got excessively lucky.
Game three Vs Centauri (and this one is the heart of the matter):
Stood off at long range and obliterated two Vorchans, surged into the pack as they closed in order to bring fusion cannons to bear in as many arcs as possible. By turn 5 all that was left was my Sharkaan (some scratched paint) and his Primus....which I eventually captured.
Now, I realize that a War level ship should be able to smash a Battle level ship, but I'm not certain that it should be able to take an entire raid level fleet, which is what it did. my Leshath basically drew some aft fire, but most of the big guns went towards the Sharkaan....and couldn't lock.
It wasn't such a big deal against the Minbari, those were just stupid. but against the Centauri, it was, by a lot, the decisive factor.
anyway:
5point raid game.
Fleet:
Sharkaan
Leshath
first game Vs. Minbari
Sharlin and two Torothas
I lurked as far away as possible and took shots at the torothas, most of which were negated by stealth. as soon as they hit 24" my Leshath started painting targets, which worked well against the Torothas.
End: Sharkaan (barely damaged), Leshath (1 hit away from being crippled) vs Sharlin.
Second game was pretty close to the first, except that he jumped out as I was coming in to lay a killing blow. It was also against Minbari, I just got excessively lucky.
Game three Vs Centauri (and this one is the heart of the matter):
Stood off at long range and obliterated two Vorchans, surged into the pack as they closed in order to bring fusion cannons to bear in as many arcs as possible. By turn 5 all that was left was my Sharkaan (some scratched paint) and his Primus....which I eventually captured.
Now, I realize that a War level ship should be able to smash a Battle level ship, but I'm not certain that it should be able to take an entire raid level fleet, which is what it did. my Leshath basically drew some aft fire, but most of the big guns went towards the Sharkaan....and couldn't lock.
It wasn't such a big deal against the Minbari, those were just stupid. but against the Centauri, it was, by a lot, the decisive factor.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
To be honest that just sounds like the Centauri player was unlucky. Ive played plenty of Centauri vs Minbari games where the centauri player focussed on using scanners to full at every possible oppertunity, passed a fair amount of stealth rolls and oblitterated my fleet.
Also worth noting is that a War level ship IS a 4 point war fleet, the Sharlin and its Varients are VERY powerful ships but in putting all your eggs in one basket you are still very vulnerable to 1 or 2 lucky crits effectively putting your ship out of the game (ok so they can no longer destroy you with 1 hit but they can still knock out your weapons and leave you dead in space etc). The same holds true for any of the other War ships. No they dont have stealth but have you looked at the Bin Tak for example? Its insanely tough. Also I bet the Leshath had more of an effect than you might think at first, for example did you use its ability to reroll your sharlins shooting? Furthermore if the Centauri fired at it AT ALL. then thats still SOME fire not going back at your Sharkaan or whatever it was. Lastly thats a whole extra flight of Nials it carries (effectively a whole WING!) which can make a world of difference to your opponents oppertunites to use scanners to full (which in my experience can be a game turner against the Minbari, the trick is getting rid of the Nials first....)
Also worth noting is that a War level ship IS a 4 point war fleet, the Sharlin and its Varients are VERY powerful ships but in putting all your eggs in one basket you are still very vulnerable to 1 or 2 lucky crits effectively putting your ship out of the game (ok so they can no longer destroy you with 1 hit but they can still knock out your weapons and leave you dead in space etc). The same holds true for any of the other War ships. No they dont have stealth but have you looked at the Bin Tak for example? Its insanely tough. Also I bet the Leshath had more of an effect than you might think at first, for example did you use its ability to reroll your sharlins shooting? Furthermore if the Centauri fired at it AT ALL. then thats still SOME fire not going back at your Sharkaan or whatever it was. Lastly thats a whole extra flight of Nials it carries (effectively a whole WING!) which can make a world of difference to your opponents oppertunites to use scanners to full (which in my experience can be a game turner against the Minbari, the trick is getting rid of the Nials first....)
