Those pesky Minbari

[Pauly_D]

Another thing recently, alot of people have been saying that Minbari should win almost every time because in the show "they kicked ass every fight", well the reason they won almost every fight in the show (not including Shadow War coz that just complicates the matter) was because their ships were Bigger and they had about the same number of them
In most battles in "In the Beginning" there were a Line of Sharlins against a line of Novas, Hyperions and Olympus's. This could never be a equal battle and so the Minbari won every time., i.e Lots of War level ships vs a few more Raid/Skirmish ships. THAT is why the Minbari never lost a regular battle, (the two exceptions being Sheridans Tactical Nukes vs the Black Star, and when the Minbari Surrendered at the Battle of the Line

The main point i am trying to make here is that we never see a "Fair" fight between Earth and Minbari, what i mean by "fair" is a close fight that could have been won by both sides, only then could you properly say that Ship A is worth Xpts compared to Ship B. So therefore the Minbari should for the same amount of pts be equal oppertunities to win the game

If you really want a Canon game, i.e have the same size forces as some battles in the EA-Minbari war then just stick to Historical Scenarios and keep the PL levels for fair fights

 

[Tredrick]

Great summary, Rorschach. Allow me to add two more suggestions to teh pile.

First, have Concentrate all Fire! give +1 to the stealth roll. All the ships sensors are focused on one narrow point. It seems more likely that they would have a greater chance to penetrate stealth. You also give up the opportunity to split fire between targets getting multiple rolls when you do this, so a little bonus is not a bad thing.

Second, allow twin-linked weapons to use saturation fire. They lose twin linked and gain Weak, but ignore stealth by laying down a hail of fire over a wide area. Maybe it doesn't need to be given weak.

 

[Rorschach]

Having been the EA Victim in a Battle of the Line scenario twice now, I can confidently say while the *small* chance of actually reversing "history" was fun, it was no picnic. If I hadn't been allowed to target my own crippled ships and blow them up right next to Sharlins, I wouldn't have even had a chance!

As it was, a line of Novas is remarkably ineffective when they can't make ONE SINGLE Stealth roll over the two turns it takes the Sharlins to pass them.

Yeah, Minbari may be just right for that canon feel. But this is supposed to be a game, and most games shouldn't hinge on who buys what box set. ;-)

 

[Xorrandor]

Actually, your expected number of hits goes up too.

<statistician>
With normal stealth:
X ~ Bernoulli(p)
E(X) = pAD

With individual stealth:
Y ~ Bi(AD,p)
E(Y) = pAD

Which is the expected number of AD that get to make a to-hit roll, and as the chance each dice makes the hit roll is the same for both, hence the expected number of hits is the same.</statistician>

Thanks, I can do math. If you don't want to read the rest of the paragraph (or don't think it was funny), just say so...

While the degrading Stealth is an interesting idea, it doesn't really follow canon. EA didn't reduce the effectiveness of jammers by flooding the area with fire, they just did it and hoped to get lucky. All splitting up the Stealth roll does is release each weapon mount to try and get a targeting solution independently. Since we don't know how centralized targeting is in B5 (not really covered on the show), it's easy to argue splitting Stealth either way. Perhaps we should allow splitting Stealth rolls, at a penalty to each roll? (Not really balanced, or a good idea as the statistics above point out, but it might help some people get over the stealth annoyance hump.)

 

[Obsidian]

I forget who above mentioned playing with Stealth mods going the other direction - the Stealth Number is the flat roll, +1 for under 10" and +1 for Scouts and Fighter scanning as usual.

I'm going to put my weight behind this one as well. Even if they switched all the Stealth values up 1 (ie Sharlin Stealth = 6+) this makes me feel like I'm getting a bonus for moving into range rather than no longer being penalized for being out of range. It is a matter of semantics for sure, but I think people would respond to it better if it was presented that way.

Matt has said that one of the goals with SFoS was to make the player feel like they could have more of an influence over the Stealth rolls. I'd prefer to be told that I gain a +1 bonus for moving into range as oppossed to being told I lose a -1 penalty. They equate to the same thing, but it is the presentation that counts.

 

[Rorschach]

Just from a game design standpoint, making Stealth work like Dodge seems...odd. Two rules that work the same in game, but have differing "fluff" effects is kinda silly - just pick one or the other.

I do still like the mechanic that Dodge works like a target's Save, and Stealth works like an attacker's extra roll to target.

I hate to say it, but all this has me longing for the simplicity of the Eldar holofield... :wink:

 

[homerun]

Thats how I think of them especially as a fleet. I can see a lot of players switching between them with no problem. Tactics aren't completely similar but the feel of it seems right and does not need a whole lot of learning time between the two.

Of course it will be great once the brakiri megacorps get to possibly unleash their Tashkava, Citicar(sp?) fleet carrier and Koromai(sp?) dreadnaught. Sorry going by memory. Then they'll be complete hopefully coming soon in later supplements.

I often see them as very much like EA but they get grav weapons and mines instead of missiles.

Good call - that is exactly how we pictured them. What the EA would be if run by aliens. . .

 

[lastbesthope]

First, have Concentrate all Fire! give +1 to the stealth roll. All the ships sensors are focused on one narrow point. It seems more likely that they would have a greater chance to penetrate stealth.

But if the point of focus is wrong then all of it would miss.

IMHO, the stealth mechanism is fine as is, the stats of ships may need adjustment, I haven't played against them to know. But stealth works the way it should I think. And I have a little real world experience of stealth systems.

Rolling independently for each hit would be wrong unless each hit was being caused by something with it's own sensors (e.g. seperate active missiles) but most weapons are guided by o ne targeting system per vessel, hence one stealth roll.

LBH

 

[Tredrick]

First, have Concentrate all Fire! give +1 to the stealth roll. All the ships sensors are focused on one narrow point. It seems more likely that they would have a greater chance to penetrate stealth.

But if the point of focus is wrong then all of it would miss.

That would be covered under missing the roll. I am not saying that you should eliminate stealth, but get a boinus to it. You are focusing all your sensors to try and target one ship as best you can. That seems like it should result in a bonus to targetting the ship.

 

[lastbesthope]

Well concentrating fire is slaving all your weapons together so it improves your chance of damaging something where the weapons are aimed. This benefit is reflected in the rerolling of misses. However I see no reason it would improve your chances against stealth, it's a different thing.

LBH

 

[LaranosTZ]

Well, I think this weekend I'm going to try and use the suggestion that was posted earlier. I'll keep the stealth ratings as they are, but give an opponent +1 to spot within 10" instead of a -1 if they are outside 10".

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[lastbesthope]

Please do!

LBH

 

[Jhary]

Again this TV result Stuff. Are you not tired to repeat this ultra Poor phrase over and Over again?

The thing is Stealth or high Stats but not Both. If you do it the other way you can print in the Rule Book "For TV-Show Players the Minbarys win automaticly if they apear on the table!"

 

[Jhary]

Again this TV result Stuff. Are you not tired to repeat this ultra Poor phrase over and Over again?

What will you do if they make a new movie where the Minbarys have no more stealth?

The thing is Stealth or high Stats but not Both. If you do it the other way you can print in the Rule Book "For TV-Show Players the Minbarys win automaticly if they apear on the table!"

 

[Karhedron]

There are a lot of people arguing over the strength of the Minbari on paper, how do people find that they play on the tabletop?

Shadows and Vorlons degrade the Minbari's stealth ability and shadow scouts can reduce this further. Centauri have access to the cheapest (and possibly best) scout ships in the game. Narns have e-mines which (whilst not especially powerful) can at least give reliable hits. Ditto Brakiri.

It seems to me that the only race which really struggles against Minbari (on paper at least) is EA. Do people find in practice that this is the case or am I over-estimating the countermeansures that other races have access to?

I am a new player and have not actually played a game yet. I bought my fleet about a month ago before I knew that the Minbari were getting buffed up so much in SFOS. I bought them because I have always really like the ships.

On a side note, I have just finished my first Sharlin (sorry I cannot get the image to display inline ). Any thoughts?

http://images3.fotopic.net/?iid=y9wowi&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

 

[homerun]

I believe some other races are easier to discover coutnermeasures. I will test some things but on paper centauri probably can beat them or at least make it interesting. Yes centauri can lose as per the battle report but the fleet chosen isn't what i would choose for minbari blasting. When centauri make a mistake they tend to lose badly anyway. Tough hulls and battle lasers with corvans will help.

I am thinking a lot is being directed to dealing it with EA. I think if someone could prove through playtest how to regularly beat them with EA then the argument will shift. I think that players here have legitimate concerns and I am not belittling anything. I think its fair to say from reading this thread that the concern is EA has hard time against a minbari fleet made really well. All fleets will find them a problem but I think its more so than others. I started an interesting EA fleet that started out promising but we ran out of time (I drew first blood although we'll have to see what happens next).

I plan to test some brakiri and narn fleets against them. I'll let you know. I am not going to stick my head in the sand and say very good players are not being blown to heck by Minbari. They obviously are but I am more of a mind to try and see what can be done in play before rule changes. I wouldn't mind rules changes ot balance it although I still think minbari should be a challenging fleet. I don't think anyone is complaining for complaining sake they are legitimately concerned. SFOS is still pretty darn new so I think I'll fight them more often, learn more about playing against them and see what Sprange has to say. thats my opinion.

I have beaten them in the old ACTA and played against them and as them by the way.

There are a lot of people arguing over the strength of the Minbari on paper, how do people find that they play on the tabletop?

Shadows and Vorlons degrade the Minbari's stealth ability and shadow scouts can reduce this further. Centauri have access to the cheapest (and possibly best) scout ships in the game. Narns have e-mines which (whilst not especially powerful) can at least give reliable hits. Ditto Brakiri.

It seems to me that the only race which really struggles against Minbari (on paper at least) is EA. Do people find in practice that this is the case or am I over-estimating the countermeansures that other races have access to?

I am a new player and have not actually played a game yet. I bought my fleet about a month ago before I knew that the Minbari were getting buffed up so much in SFOS. I bought them because I have always really like the ships.

On a side note, I have just finished my first Sharlin. Any thoughts?

 

[lastbesthope]

The thing is Stealth or high Stats but not Both. If you do it the other way you can print in the Rule Book "For TV-Show Players the Minbarys win automaticly if they apear on the table!"

Unless Johnny 'Nuke-em' Sheridan is nearby :lol:

You can't really blame people for wanting it to be like the TV show.

LBH

 

[usmc8892]

There are a lot of people arguing over the strength of the Minbari on paper, how do people find that they play on the tabletop?

Shadows and Vorlons degrade the Minbari's stealth ability and shadow scouts can reduce this further. Centauri have access to the cheapest (and possibly best) scout ships in the game. Narns have e-mines which (whilst not especially powerful) can at least give reliable hits. Ditto Brakiri.

It seems to me that the only race which really struggles against Minbari (on paper at least) is EA. Do people find in practice that this is the case or am I over-estimating the countermeansures that other races have access to?

I am a new player and have not actually played a game yet. I bought my fleet about a month ago before I knew that the Minbari were getting buffed up so much in SFOS. I bought them because I have always really like the ships.

On a side note, I have just finished my first Sharlin (sorry I cannot get the image to display inline ). Any thoughts?

http://images3.fotopic.net/?iid=y9wowi&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

That is an AWESOME Sharlin, what colors, methods did you use ?

 

[Karhedron]

On a side note, I have just finished my first Sharlin (sorry I cannot get the image to display inline ). Any thoughts?

http://images3.fotopic.net/?iid=y9wowi&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

That is an AWESOME Sharlin, what colors, methods did you use ?

Thanks, that is the kind of feedback I like. I have given a quick rundown of my painting technique below.

I assembled the main hull, top fin and rear fin first. I painted the lower fins and the small side fins separately and attached them afterwards. I used citadel paints since I play GW anyway and have plenty of them about.

The basecoat is Hawk Turquiose, I then highlighted this with a 50:50 mix of Hawk Turquiose and Skull white and lastly applied a final highlight of pure skull white.

The stripes were painted on very thinned down Ultramarine Blue. I used several very thin coats to build up the stripes to try and avoid hard edges. I then painted the darkest central portion of the stripes with thinned down Regal Blue to get a harder, darker leading edge to the fins.

I shaded the lower set of ribs on the main hull with thinned down Warlock Purple. Lastly I used thinned down Hawk Turquiose to blend the stripes in and cover up any sharp edges as best I could.

I would say it took 6-8 hours to paint the whole ship, not counting drying time.

 

[Jhary]

@ lasthope Sorry but when somebody Post some thing that a few here dislike then they post the TV Phrase and that so.

When some asked for a Point systhem or some clues for it = TV Show
When there is a problem with the Centaurys = TV Show
When People fell the Minbarys to strong = TV Show

And so on

Thats the reason why i ask why this persons play any game at all. Its Pure munchkindom what they do. And every other minbary Player gets the Label as Powergamer. What i don´t like.