Those pesky Minbari

[Silvereye]

I have been updating my cheat sheets I use with the new SFOS ships, and to be fair I cannot see what the problems are.

There has been a lot of comparison between the Warlock and Sharlin. You are trying to go 1 on 1 with a Sharlin Warcruiser (which was the gold standard of ship power in the B5 series) and a Warlock advanced destroyer, which is a completely different type of ship. The Sharlin has the power to tear apart any single vessel over a couple of turns while staying out of the way and trying not to be hit. The Warlock is geareed toward heading straight into the middle of the fight and shredding multiple targets, relying on its interceptors and high hull/damage/crew to soak hits with. There were comment of Redcoat Vs Rebel; the Warlock fights like a good Redcoat, it toes the line helped out by his mates while the Sharlin skulks around in the trees an snipes things.

If people are really that bothered about Stealth being too powerful, I would have expect equal complaints to be raised from both the EA Delphi (Raid) and the Vree Vaarl (Patrol). Which are both Stealth 5+, Scouts.

With this in mind , I now invite people to compare, in particular, the EA Delphi and the Minbari Leshath. Both are primarily Scout ships, and not geared for direct engagements with an enemy hull.

The Delphi has more speed, more crew and 2 sets of Interceptors (which will be useful against any race but the Minbari as Stealth alone). However the Leshath has much better firepower and space for a single flight of Nials. Over all they are very compatable ships. Both too important to risk as offensive units in any fleet, but both are able to provide considerable support to the rest of the fleet.

Now, a lot of people have said the Minbari are totally and utterly unbeatable because of their Stealth. So I invite them to help their arguments by providing us with battle reports, so we can know exaclty why you are having such a miserable time against them.

 

[Locutus9956]

I would say comparing the scout ships doesnt really achieve much as they are not going to be abig issue in terms of game balance (theyre not the ones doing the damage and theyre all pretty unimpressive offensively).

But I do agree that Id like to hear some detailed battle reports to back up the 'Mibari are Broken' 'Its so unfair, I HATE YOU! Im going to my room!' camp....

Id be happy to provide some myself but cant with SFoS till after GenCon (when I get my book ). But I can say that in my experience, PRE SFoS, Minbari are categorically NOT broken. Ive trounced Minbari fleets with EA, Centauri, Narns, ISA in 5 point battles and won with Minbari in return too.

Going on the lists alone what has been done to the Minbari can, in my oppinion be summed up as follows:

The Sharlin has been upgraded in hull and fire power along with all the other races War level ships. It has also recieved a slight upgrade as all Minbari ships have to counter the new anti stealth abilities available from scouts (this upgrade is much smaller than than the War one though). All races beam weapons (pretty much) have been upped a bit too so the combination of these initially makes you look at the sharlin and go 'Whoa! Theyve made it UBER!!!' But compared to its 'peers' I think its still fair.

The Tinashi HAS been upgraded more than most other Minbari ships but for good reason. Pre SFoS I found myself not using them much as they simply died FAR too easily. For a ship that is supposed to be the main Battle choice for the Minbari I found myself favouring the Veshtan and Troligan in almost all cases. Yes it has stealth but 1 or 2 passed stealth rolls and its pitiful damage and hull scores (less than alot of RAID choices) rapidly dissapear.... So they upgraded it to be the dangerous ship it should be. They also dropped the Veshtans Hull to 5 (a hull 6 4+ stealth ship at battle level left it with a very weak weapons loadout to compensate (which just felt wrong for a gunship).

Most other ships have had their hulls raised slightly and beams upgraded a little (in line with everyone elses ships). Oh and Nials are still the lethal dogfighters they alsways were but are no longer as serious a threat to capital ships without precise weapons.

As far as I can see, the Minbari dont SEEM to be broken (on paper) but that oppinion could well change after Ive got the book and playtested it a bit I really hope it doesnt prove unbalanced though as I do love my Minbari. The ship designs are just so damn cool

 

[Silvereye]

The Leshath/Delphi was chosen because these were the two ships that are tactically used the same.

It might also be worth comparing the Nova and Ashinta as these fill similar fleet roles..

 

[LoneStranger]

I can kinda see wanted to compare scouts but the argument there is still not completely valid since it's hard to completely compare them. Do they have the same movement? The same turning ability? The same weapons? It also sounds like the Minbari scout has an advantage since it can carry fighters.

Now as far as my problem with Minbari Stealth. It's not the fact that they have stealth, it's just that it's so dang high. Now I will grant I've seen games against the Minbari where people haven't had much trouble locking on regardless of the stealth (10/12 Starfury flights hitting a couple small Minbari ships) but I've also seen games where the person can't lock on to save their life. Eh at any rate I'll have to see if I can play some games with SFOS Minbari and see what happens.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Now as far as my problem with Minbari Stealth. It's not the fact that they have stealth, it's just that it's so dang high.

The entire point about Stealth is that it stops the enemy finding and targetting you. No-one in their right mind designs their own primary means of defence (which Stealth is to the Minbari) to ONLY work 5 times out of 6 against your most likely opponent. We know from the series that Stealth is AT LEAST that effective against EA ships. Admittedly, Shadows should have better than +1 against it.

Wulf

 

[Pauly_D]

If people are really that bothered about Stealth being too powerful, I would have expect equal complaints to be raised from both the EA Delphi (Raid) and the Vree Vaarl (Patrol). Which are both Stealth 5+, Scouts.

the difference is that the Delphi and Vaarl do not have great offensive capabilities, also it is only ONE ship per race that has these abilities and for some races their best ship that has stealth is so poor it doesnt even contend with the worst minbari ship with stealth

i know theres the arguement of "Stealth is the Minbari special thing that makes them different from everyone else"-fine, but dont make it too overpowering, Interceptors (primarily Earth and Abbai) can easily be overcome by massed shots bringing down the interceptors, the Drazi's better manoeurability can be overcome by masses of fighters, these are just examples of how to overcome each races specific ability
i won't go into why its so hard to overcome stealth because its been said so many times but for a racial special ability it is too influential in games

 

[Silvereye]

Interceptors (primarily Earth and Abbai) can easily be overcome by massed shots bringing down the interceptors

Except when you add Stealth. Remember the Stealth happens first, so the Interceptors do not need to fire at the shots that don't hit. So you will need to whack a Delphi with beams (of which 1/6 may actually see past the Stealth) to guarentee ignoring the interceptors. Now Beams is the Minbari thing, so it will likely be marginally easier for them as opposed to Brakiri or Narn, that will probably use e-mines rather than waste AD that may never even get to the interceptors.

Besides I would have thought your experiance with the Centauri has shown you some of the holes in Stealth by now. I certainly have the easiest battles when I play the Lion of the Galaxy.

 

[Pauly_D]

Besides I would have thought your experiance with the Centauri has shown you some of the holes in Stealth by now. I certainly have the easiest battles when I play the Lion of the Galaxy.

yeah, only pick ships with Hull 6 (coz then even if they Super AP its 4's to hit) then pick on the smallest Minbari ship and blast absolutely everything at it, then run like hell

 

[B5freak]

Locutus wrote:
But I do agree that Id like to hear some detailed battle reports to back up the 'Mibari are Broken' 'Its so unfair, I HATE YOU! Im going to my room!' camp....

No problem. Here's what's already been posted by "our camp" to this thread:

Nomad wrote:
Just did a quick excercise, 5 points at battle level, Minbari with two Sharlins and a Tinashi, late period EA with a Warlock, two Omegas and two Delphis. CQ 4 on all ships. Fighters were not included, except to assume EA had three flights in range to use "All Power to Sensors" against one Minbari ship per turn on turn two and later.

By the end of turn three, EA had lost the Warlock and had one of the Omegas crippled. They had acheived one lock-on, with the Warlock just after she was crippled on turn two, and dealt one of the Sharlins a shattering 15 damage and crew hits.

White Rhino wrote:
I have played 7 games (5 raid, 2 battle) against them using various other (Centari, Narn x2, Earth x2, Shadows and Vorlon) fleets. In all cases the minbari were run by fairly inexperienced players while I ran the opposing fleets. Despite better knowledge of the rules and maneuvering, I haven't had anything even approaching a close game and the Minbari have managed to wipe out the opposing fleets without even loosing a single ship on two occasions.

I'm sorry to say that I've been somewhat neglegent in providing exact accounts of my own experiences, but I'll take notes and post them from now on. For now I can provide you with some exerpts from a B5 day I hosted yesterday at one of our local game stores. I didn't actually play in these since I was coordinating, but I got a chance to watch and get feedback from the players. These were not overly experienced players and in most cases had never played the fleets they were using, though they had played enough to construct their own fleets from lists provided.

There was a 3 Battle point Minbari vs Centauri fight, but I don't have details. I've sent an e-mail to one of the guys who played to see if I can get a blow-by-blow. The Minbari did win however, and by a wide margin.

The other Minbari game was against Shadows (again 3 Battle points). Shadows had 1 Cruiser and 2 Scouts. The Minbari had 2 Tinashi and two Teshlan.

No ships in hyper. 1st round, Shadows win initiative.
After moving all ships he attempts to shoot. 1 scout makes stealth roll, 1
does not (Cruiser does). 1st scout shoots result: minimal damage on 1
Teshlan. Cruiser shoots, kills same Teshlan. Minbari kill 1 scout and
wound other scout. 2nd Round, Minbari win init. After all ships have
moved, Shadows get lock on, but fail to do major damage. Minbari kill
both the last Scout and the Cruiser in that round, ending the game.

I'll provide more info as I have it.

As a side note, I've greatly enjoyed the civil, considered exchange I've had with several members of this board, but the sad, harsh fact of the matter is that many who claim that the Minbari are "balanced" have either not played against them under SFoS or have not played against the Sharlin/Tinashi/Teshlan based fleets we're seeing. If you want to call us "whiner" or "chicken little", without any actual basis for judging our comments or arguements, well, that's you're perogative, but I'd much rather engage in an exchange of information rather than insults.

Is Stealth a problem? No, not really. Is the increased Dam/Crew a problem? No, not really. Is the increased firepower a problem? No, not really. Are all three of these taken together a big problem? Yes, they are.

 

[Right Hand of God]

Two Sharlin and a Tinashi in a 5 point game at battle level is a power gamer's fleet designed to max damage in as few turns as possible. It is not a fair representation of the fleet in any way shape or form. The more the debate goes on though the less I see of debate over stratergy and tactics. The game has never been about each ship in each fleet being comparable to every other ship available.

To a great extent it's up to the players themselves to choose a fleet to deal with the problem at hand.

I would be interested to see where those that scream "cannon" from the show fall in this debate as well.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I would be interested to see where those that scream "cannon" from the show fall in this debate as well.

A 'cannon' is a thing you shoot shells out of, 'canon' is the word you're looking for.

And as for my opinion, the more people whimper about how those nasty big Minbari beat up on them, the more I feel they are good and proper representations of the originals.

Wulf

 

[LaranosTZ]

*shrugs* Canon for Minbari would be to take as many Sharlin 'heavy' vessels as possible. In the fluff/storyline presented pretty much from B5W through ACtA the Minbari use the Sharlin's as their main battle line vessels. The other ships are support or patrol vessels for the Minbari homeworlds. Whenever the Minbari have gone to war they send out the Sharlins, backed up with Morshin fighter carriers, and that's pretty much all they've ever needed.

The problem is that if you stuck with 'canon' fleet builds, the Minbari would completely overwhelm any other fleet out there, (and no, we're not talking about stealth) since the Minbari have been producing ships for hundreds, if not thousands of years longer then any other race. In the battle of the line I think the ratio of earth ships to Sharlins was close to 1:1, that's one Sharlin for every nova, hyperion, heck, even olympus.

Obviously that just doesn't make for a fun game, so when it really comes down to it 'canon' doesn't apply.

 

[frobisher]

Whenever the Minbari have gone to war they send out the Sharlins, backed up with Morshin fighter carriers, and that's pretty much all they've ever needed.

Except they take a lot of Tinashis with them on their crusade against the EA...

But yup, the engagements from the series are rarely ever balanced (with the possible exception of a lot of the EA Civil War engagements. Since the game is geared around Tournament style combats then suprise, suprise, equally pointed sides have a fairly good chance of beating one another.

 

[B5freak]

Right Hand of God said:
Two Sharlin and a Tinashi in a 5 point game at battle level is a power gamer's fleet designed to max damage in as few turns as possible. It is not a fair representation of the fleet in any way shape or form. The more the debate goes on though the less I see of debate over stratergy and tactics. The game has never been about each ship in each fleet being comparable to every other ship available.

Three points:
First - Two Sharlin and a Tinashi in a 5 point game at battle level is a LEGAL fleet. Yes, it's designed to do max damage in as few turns as possible, but why not? Isn't the point of the game to defeat your opponent, using all of the tools available in your fleet list? Actually, a more deadly fleet would be 5 Tinashi. For the loss of 5" of range, which the Tinashi's speed more than makes up for, I get 4 more AD of Neutron Lasers. So, I don't get any fighters, oh well. If the Tinashi do thier job, nobody will be around to fire by the time enemy fighters get in range for StF! If the goal is to crush the enemy in turn 1, 5 Tinashi are the best bet.

Second - What counts as a 'fair' representation of the fleet? To me, any fleet that doesn't make the most of the Minbari's inherent advantages is an unfair representation of the overall list.

Third - What's the point of discussing tactics against a fleet that no tactic other than phenomenal dice rolling will defeat? If the tactics were designed to shut down the Minbari, but the list lets you build a legal fleet that those tactics are next to useless against, then the design/playtest process has broken down.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, until you test your tactics/fleets against the most broken, power gamer fleet the Minbari list will allow, you've no basis for judging whether or not the list as a whole is balanced.

 

[Obsidian]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, until you test your tactics/fleets against the most broken, power gamer fleet the Minbari list will allow, you've no basis for judging whether or not the list as a whole is balanced.

Question. Have you considered the Minbari fleet list in terms of campaigns rather than single engagements?

It's been my experience over the years that European players think of things in the longer grand campaign sort of way rather than the individual battle. This may explain a little of the design philosophy. Not sayig I agree with it, just asking you to consider it.

 

[B5freak]

Yes, but then what would be the point of providing the exta rules to presumedly give additional flavor in campaigns?

Also, here's the Centauri vs Minbari battle report I promised. Please remember that I didn't actually participate in this battle, just observed:

annihilation, 3 pt battle

My fleet: 2 Sulust, 2 Demos, 2 Vorchan, 1 Vorchan Scout

His fleet: 2 Tinashi, 1 Teshlan, 2 Torotha

1st turn, Minbari win initiative. Minbari CF! on one Demos and destroy it. Minor damage to both Vorchan and one Sulust. Centauri missed 4 of 6 stealth rolls. Minor damage to Teshlan and major damage to 1 Torotha.

2nd Turn, Minbari win initiative again. After all movement occurs, Minbari proceed to kill 1 Sulust, other Demos, and Vorchan scout. Centauri are able to take out both Torotha and minor damage to Teshlan.

3rd turn, Minbari win inititave again! After movement, Centauri conceed game. Minbari win.

Centauri missed over 2/3 of stealth rolls while only doing minor damage to the Minbari big ships.

 

[Rorschach]

Two Sharlin and a Tinashi in a 5 point game at battle level is a power gamer's fleet designed to max damage in as few turns as possible. It is not a fair representation of the fleet in any way shape or form.

Powergamer's dream or not, its perfectly legal, and by this game perfectly fair. If Mongoose didn't want us using a particular Fleet combo, why in the Great Maker's Name allow it in the first place?

If I'm organizng a Tournament, what am I supposed to do: "Oh BTW, Minbari players - you can't have more than one War level ship - and more than 2 Tinashi is right out?" Yeah...that'll fly with people - leave that ship you spent an extra day painting at home.

Forgive the sentiment, but since this is a product we're all investing a fair chunk of change in, I think Game Balance is the responsibility of the Designers, not the Players.
There's a bit of meeting them partway - because NO list can ever be perfect. But B5 is not going to gather new and loyal players when folks buy a fleet because they like the background, but then no one wants to play them because their couple of Sharlins are just that wrong. I more expect that outcome from That Other Company, not Mongoose.

We're not whiners here - we're gamers with over a dozen years of experience each (2 dozen in my case). The intricacies of play balance and not foreign to us. We take different fleets for different scenarios. We experiment with unbalanced scenarios (like running the Battle of the Line at a local Con). But we don't build fleets to lose. That would be insulting our opponent, and no fun for anybody.

If you tell me that Fleet X is balanced against Fleet Z, I expect that to be accurate. To find it woefully Not So is a disappointment. In Minbari vs. Vorlons, Minbari vs. Centauri, Minbaris vs EA, Minbari vs. Narn, etc...the combined effects of overwhelming NL firepower and overprotective Stealth have made each game a rout.
We're not idiots - after a dozen games with a half-dozen or so experienced players, its fairly obvious there's something off. We're still going to try some different lists, no Sharlins, No Tinashis, etc, at least in the interests of narrowing down the problems.

Point is, we shouldn't *have* to struggle with this.

That sort of demand from a game can't help but cost the game players in the long run. Game store back rooms are litterred with failed mini-games, that didn't think play balance and fair all-round lists were all that important.
We want the game to succeed locally and build a player base. But if the attitude is going to be, "Pay no attention to that Sharlin behind the curtain", then no one will want to play for any length of time after their first few Minbari experiences.

On the brighter side, the Abbai seem to be a truly buff fleet after all...

 

[Dywnarc]

Very well spoken. That was well put.


Wuld made the comment about about players "wimpering" and getting "beat up" by the Minbari

Please give us a little more credit. I too am a long time wargammer.

If you go to GW forum it is clear that the forum is domminated by younger newer gamers, but dissucias here clearly inticate that most of us getting into this great game are experience mature gamers, not ones that whin and cry cause we are lossing.

I would like to see a little more play testing and "system breaking" going on involving the Minbari.

I am in the "Minbari are a little too strong camp" and I am not a whinner tyhat can;t beat them..

I AM THE MINBARI PLAYER, and I SAY THEY ARE TOO STRONG.

I bought a Minbari fleet, I am not going to insult the game or my oppenents by building bad fleets, or not using fleet tactics to the best I can, and I want to have a fair fun game that both players can enjoy.

I went out and bought an Earth Allaince box segt so ic an have a fleet that has a chance of lossing.

I have played more games since this post started, about 5, and I have not lost in that run. In fact I have only lost one game with the Minbari, and irronicly it was before I noticed the rule that they are harder to lock whent hey are more then 10 away, I thought you got a bonus for being close!

So I have NOT lost a game where I was playing with the proper rules.

 

[lastbesthope]

I am in the "Minbari are a little too strong camp" and I am not a whinner tyhat can;t beat them..

I AM THE MINBARI PLAYER, and I SAY THEY ARE TOO STRONG.

You are A Minbari player, there are many like you :lol:

As for not being a whiner who can't beat them, hoew often do you play against them, and what races do you use when you do?

LBH

 

[janolen]

Seriously, we intended the Minbari to be a tactical problem but the next issue of S&P will have some anti-Bonehead tactics, including a few that have not been mentioned here yet. So, you have about 3 weeks of getting your butt handed to you by the Minbari until you have some new tactics to try out

Did I miss an issue or what happened to this article ?