Things I Miss about AD&D 2E (and some AD&D 1E)

[Supplement Four]

1) You must recalculate the Initiative score every round if you change the kinds of actions...

The default rules in Conan are to roll nish every round anyway, yes?

Although...I like the idea of rolling it once per combat and keeping the same order. That sounds quick to me.

2) It makes everything less dynamic.
With the actual rules you decide what to do when your turn comes.
That's very good and in feeling with Conan stories' Atmoshere in REH.

I agree that no Declaration Phase should be added to the game.

 

[Supplement Four]

1: The weapon is not fast, the user is, Reflex and High Dex.

What about the exact same user using a big-arsed war hammer, and then the same dude using a dagger?

Weapon has no bearing at all on how early the weapon can be brought to bear during the round?

5: I thought Runequest did a good way of judging who goes first, Weapon length and lightness of Weapon...

I need to look at these Runequest rules. I've heard good things about them.

 

[Clovenhoof]

What about the exact same user using a big-arsed war hammer, and then the same dude using a dagger?

Weapon has no bearing at all on how early the weapon can be brought to bear during the round?

kintire gave a pretty good model on the first page of this thread.

Except it doesn't. Long weapons (within reason) should always attack first, except in a grapple.

A dagger will be light enough that its speed is limited by how fast the wielder can move their arm. When thrusting it will have a reach of three feet or so, including arm. When swinging it will be moving a little faster as it is a 1 foot or so lever.

A sword will also be (almost exactly) light enough that its speed will be limited by how fast the wielder can move their arm. When thrusting it will be as fast as the dagger, but will have a reach of five or so feet, including arm. When swinging, it will be MUCH faster, as it is a three foot or so lever.

A two handed "war" sword will be faster yet: it will be light enough that when swung two handed its speed will be limited by how fast the wielder can move their arms, and it will be a 6-7 foot reach and a four-five foot lever.

Polearms like bills or halberds are reaching the point where they are getting a little heavy, so their thrusts might be a little slower, depending on the wielder's strength. At the swing speed will be more than made up for by the 7-9 foot lever.

Spears will probably be about as fast at the thrust as the dagger, but 6 feet plus long.

In actual fact "lightness" is mostly irrelevant, unless someone is wielding someone else's weapon which is too heavy for them. Reach is pretty much all: unless the shorter weapon wielder can close to grapple. If we are trying to be realistic about this, a dagger wielder should have to use some sort of feat or maneuver to be able to attack a 2hander or polearm wielder at all.

 

[Supplement Four]

kintire gave a pretty good model on the first page of this thread.

I read that the first time, but I don't really agree with what kintire says. At least part of it.

He says a two handed war sword can be moved as fast as a dagger. Not really. There's bulk and weight to consider.

With a dagger, you move in, quick, and slice, slice, slice.

With a war sword, you swing it around, as quick as you can, doing much more damage with a single hit.

If this were music, the war sword would be a whole note, while the dagger is a quarter note. The tempo is as fast as the character can move his arms.

 

[cbrunish]

Honestly the weapon speed rules were one that my group tended to ignore in 1e and 2e. This was one rule that I was happy was dropped in 3e.

But I miss the naming for every leve of a class. Petty I know, but it made it interesting. I also liked that the Illusionist was a seperate class. I think that it was interesting that my 7th level Magic User was a Sorcerer and a 9th level Fighter was a Lord.

I still have the 1e AD&D rules but got rid of the 3.5 D&D when 4e D&D came out. For 3e I still have Conan! Which I think is really fantastic. It seemed that they took the best of the old Conan game from TSR (which could have been a great game it) with the best of 3e.

 

[Jotenbjorn]

What I miss:

Weapon Speed: Aready discussed.
Rolling initiative every round
non-weapon proficiencies: I just like the mechanic more than skills.
Rarity of high level characters
Not being able to jump 50' without the aid of magic.

What I don't miss:

Exceptional Strength: God I hated exceptional strength! It flat out wasn't worth playing a fighter unless you got an 18 strength, so I usually didn't get to play my favorite class.
Multi-class and dual class rules.

 

[kintire]

If this were music, the war sword would be a whole note, while the dagger is a quarter note. The tempo is as fast as the character can move his arms.

The tempo of both is as fast as the character can move his arms. There are only two differences

1) you have identified yourself: With a dagger, you move in. And how heavy are you compared to a sword or a dagger?

2) A dagger is a 1 foot lever and a war sword is a three to four foot lever. Thus, the war sword moves much MUCH faster.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm

 

[LucaCherstich]

1) You must recalculate the Initiative score every round if you change the kinds of actions...

The default rules in Conan are to roll nish every round anyway, yes?

Although...I like the idea of rolling it once per combat and keeping the same order. That sounds quick to me.

NO! That's not the default rule!
Have you read the rules?
The Conan d20 rules (as all the d20 games and normal D&D 3.5) makes you roll Initiative just "..at the start of a battle..."
Please, check Conan 2e page 176:
"...In every round that follows the characters act in the same order ...."

 

[The Mad Minstrel]

concerning weapon "speed":

we have two factors:

1) weight of the weapon (and how it affects the abilty to strike)
2) reach of weapon

I think in reality "reach" surpasses "weight" (or "lightness" in this case).
I takes more time to bring the sword "in position", compared to a dagger, but you will have it ready in time to strike before the dagger-fighter moves in close enough to strike on his part.
That´s what I think.

For sure we (at least me!) have the cinematic actions in mind where (mostly) the bad guy with the 10-ton-hammer cuts everything in his path with awful blows, devastating but slow and the hero (lightfooted) closes in with just a dagger and finishes the villain. 8)
So, I would like to have some mechanics to "simulate" this.


Hmmm.... maybe you have to point out advantages of smaller weapons in a different way: smaller (easier to hide) , cheaper etc...
Someone already mentioned this.

But I think for combat-focused players (at least for barbarians :wink: ) it would be attractive to have more visible influcences (like discussed above).

 

[Supplement Four]

The Conan d20 rules (as all the d20 games and normal D&D 3.5) makes you roll Initiative just "..at the start of a battle..."
Please, check Conan 2e page 176:
"...In every round that follows the characters act in the same order ...."

Good...I'm glad I had that one wrong.

I did read the book, but that was a while ago, and I've played AD&D 2E since then. I guess I was getting confused.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think I am getting to comprehend what S4 is saying, but in end why should somebody foolish enough to run into battle with a dagger...

IRL, the dagger is a dangerous weapon. In the game, not so much, unless the oppoint is 1st level (and even then, it takes more than one blow to kill).

So, I'm always looking for ways to make the dagger a more viable weapon without unbalancing it in the game.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Regarding Initiative: we've always rolled it every round. Yes, it may slow things down a tiny bit at the table, BUT it makes for much more dynamic combat. It generates a feeling of the battle rolling back and forth, depending on whose side wins Ini.

Besides, rolling Ini every round is favourable for characters with high Ini bonuses, because they win more reliably and it's not such a big deal if the Pirate with Improved Ini rolls a 2 on his Ini die once. By RAW, he'd go last the whole fight. This way, he's just off his rocker for a few seconds and then gets a chance to compose himself.

And it can even be a decisive factor in the outcome of a battle. I remember one scenario, where my Barbarian had to fight a formal duel with some Nasty. The NPC was a bit stronger and higher level, and the rules were: dagger (poignard) only, no armour, and fight until someone drops or gives up. (I think the GM set it up like that to make Massive Damage impossible, and ensure we had to go the full distance)
In the end, we were both down to a handful of HP. It all boiled down to who would win Initiative now. And I did. So I struck first, and felled the champion, and was hero of the day and all that.
That was _much_ more gripping than rolling Ini once and just keep going back and forth all the time like a ping pong match.

 

[treeplanter]

Coming back on weapon speed/reach:

So what about a new manoeuver/combat situation, wich is similar to a grapple in some way but don't involve grapple.

Close quarter fight (Or sometime light that)
Pre-requise: Your figthing with a light weapon and attacking an ennemy with a two-handed/large weapon.
Action: You move in the defender square (provoking attack of opportunity). If it miss, you're know engage in a close quarter fight. Character in close-quarter fight can only attack with light and/or one-handed weapon (preference here, i would probably allow any one-handed blade but not weapon with wooden shaft). A character can disengage of close quarter fight with a move action that provoke an attack of oportunity.

Of course this is a quick draft. One could rule that a fighter with a short blade need to be in Close quarter fight to attack an ennemy with a bigger weapon, or it could be optional.

Pro: Add a realistic touch. Improve the value of mobility feat, and couples of feats as like white on rice (dunno the exact name, the one you can make a 5 foot-step when opponent move, in ROK).
Con: Can make combat more tedious (but no more than grapple i think)[/i]

 

[Yogah of Yag]

There are some mechanics in 1E D&D that I have never used, nor known anyone else to employ, as weapon speed and armour class adjustments to attacks (PHB, p. 38 ). I have always regarded them as somewhat peripheral and optional. YMMV.

 

[rabindranath72]

There are some mechanics in 1E D&D that I have never used, nor known anyone else to employ, as weapon speed and armour class adjustments to attacks (PHB, p. 38 ). I have always regarded them as somewhat peripheral and optional. YMMV.

I too rarely used them, but they make the difference in practice.