Things I don't like about 2e missiles

[phavoc]

Let's put some real world things in comparison:

Sidewinder - $600,000
Standard - $11,000,000
Javelin ATG - $78,000
Harpoon - $1,200,000
Tomahawk - $1,400,000

You have to consider the conversion of dollars to credits, but even assuming a $4 = 1 Cr, a price of Cr30,000 for an individual missile is quite reasonable with todays costs for weapons. Using the above a standard missile would cost $120,000ea. At Cr30,000 ea they are pretty cheap for military hardware.

With the price of missiles you won't see lots of players (or pirates) running around tossing them off indiscriminately - that's the job of the military! It also gives referees something to reward players with by boarding hulks and wrecks for salvage. Finding a partially intact magazine with a dozen usable missiles in it would be a very nice reward (or a way to pay for damages incurred...)

A Mark 54 Torp costs about $800,000, and it would probably be equivalent to a Tomahawk missile, or the rough equivalent to a Traveller torpedo. For the most part torps can utilize the same type of electronics as a missile, so if you assume the bulk of the cost is there and the explosive power and fuel for the engine isn't part of the larger expense comparing the damages vs. cost makes logical sense. Less hand wavium is always welcome.

 

[wbnc]

Let's put some real world things in comparison:

Sidewinder - $600,000
Standard - $11,000,000
Javelin ATG - $78,000
Harpoon - $1,200,000
Tomahawk - $1,400,000

You have to consider the conversion of dollars to credits, but even assuming a $4 = 1 Cr, a price of Cr30,000 for an individual missile is quite reasonable with todays costs for weapons. Using the above a standard missile would cost $120,000ea. At Cr30,000 ea they are pretty cheap for military hardware.

With the price of missiles you won't see lots of players (or pirates) running around tossing them off indiscriminately - that's the job of the military! It also gives referees something to reward players with by boarding hulks and wrecks for salvage. Finding a partially intact magazine with a dozen usable missiles in it would be a very nice reward (or a way to pay for damages incurred...)

A Mark 54 Torp costs about $800,000, and it would probably be equivalent to a Tomahawk missile, or the rough equivalent to a Traveller torpedo. For the most part torps can utilize the same type of electronics as a missile, so if you assume the bulk of the cost is there and the explosive power and fuel for the engine isn't part of the larger expense comparing the damages vs. cost makes logical sense. Less hand wavium is always welcome.

problem is for a player group,they have a ship with two or three hard points at best..and if they mount missiles they have to fire them off. or they loose a lot of their firepower.

30K a shot is realistic by modern standard..It is a steep price to pay every time you fire for a player. you could very quickly fire through you entire profit for a job, and then the next payment on you ship.

a that price a commercial captain, or player is not going to mount missiles...and f they find them on a wreck after a fight they are going to sell them rather than use them.

making them less expensive keep them in the game for players.At 30k each, or anywhere in that range they become an NPC/Fleet level game weapon only.

My reasoning for lower prices.....

The military pays those outrageous prices only because they are a limited run product,only a handful are built each year.

Then, military forces, and a few allies are the only buyers.No competition from other manufacturers, no competition pressures created by a large customer pool.

If someone is producing them by the millions, and has a massive customer pool competition drives the price down. Especially for a technology as simple as missiles. They aren't that complex for a TL12-TL14 culture.

A TL-12 culture can build a missile as easily as our culture can build rifles. or ore accurately Rocket Propelled Grenades.

 

[Nerhesi]

If players are in space shooting off missiles, 30,000k per missile is really nothing if it's needed. You have the potential to generate millions per trading jump with a few tons of cargo...

 

[wbnc]

If players are in space shooting off missiles, 30,000k per missile is really nothing if it's needed. You have the potential to generate millions per trading jump with a few tons of cargo...

if 12 missiles = 360,000 cr.....that's a sizable dent in anyone's pocket, almost as much as a pulse laser .... and this is for a one use item....or technically 12 use item.

At that expense level what captain in his right mind is going to mount a missile on a civilian/player ship. 360 k for 12 shots at 4d, or 500K for infinite shots...and you can use your lasers at close and adjacent ranges..spend 1Mcr you get a pulse laser with variable range, o2 tons of missiles and change...and you loose 2 tons of cargo capacity on top of that.

I can tell you what the accountants would say.

This s a point where the price is part of a bigger picture, on the design and balance side.....do you want missiles to be rich boy/military toys, or standard weapons for civilian use.

 

[Nerhesi]

I'd think we want the non-nuclear missiles to be rather cheapos, that is a good point

 

[ErinPalette]

A return of "basic", non-smart missiles would be nice.

 

[wbnc]

A return of "basic", non-smart missiles would be nice.

a cheap, basic, civilian, non smart, missile...yeah I can get behind that

 

[FallingPhoenix]

This s a point where the price is part of a bigger picture, on the design and balance side.....do you want missiles to be rich boy/military toys, or standard weapons for civilian use.

Personally, I'd lean on the side of missiles being rich boy/military toys. Or weapons for when the crap really hits the fan, possibly leading to the "is it worth it to spend half our profits to get out of this situation or can we take them down with the lasers?" conversation.

 

[Chas]

A return of "basic", non-smart missiles would be nice.

a cheap, basic, civilian, non smart, missile...yeah I can get behind that

The kinetic missile for close range work. Fire at what you see in the weapon sights. A missile that gets around the current injunction on adjacent ranges. Can't be jammed. Smaller and lighter again so fighters can carry a heap. :?:

 

[Condottiere]

Military intelligence isn't everything is cracked up to be.

 

[phavoc]

If you go with the idea that missiles ARE expensive, but they are also VERY effective damage dealers, then the price per missile is reasonable.

Only extremely well-funded people should be able to afford missile launchers, which makes space combat (for PC's at least) more common with lasers and sand (which should be, pardon the pun, dirt cheap). Missiles are there for the rich adventurer, well-funded merc outfit or the military who always has the bestest of everything.

 

[ErinPalette]

Except that in my experience (based on 1e combat; not a lot of experience with 2e yet), missiles are horribly ineffective: They are slow to reach their target, are shot down rather easily, and are a limited resource. Contrast with energy weapons which are zero time to target, have unlimited ammo, and while they can be countered with sand it isn't kilocreds wasted when that happens.

I am starting to suspect that missiles are only effective when shot at minimum range (which, given sensors, doesn't happen often) or when done in an anime-style barrage to overwhelm point defense.

I've asked my math-inclined players to figure out how much it might break the game if a single missile launcher could launch more than 1 missile per turn. Given that a space combat turn is 6 minutes, that would mean an entire dton could be fired in a single turn if it is assumed 30 seconds to load and fire a missile -- an interval which seems reasonable to me.

 

[phavoc]

Missiles should have a much higher rate of fire. In my army days we ripple-fired a dozen rockets in less than 60 seconds - and we could move our launcher slightly between each one. Missiles in general are still very much stuck in the 1970s.

They ARE quite deadly now, as they should be. I think one way to help balance the issue is that your lasers get ONE action per turn, NOT one offensive AND one defensive.

1st Player turn - I'm launching a missile
2nd Player - Missiles are too far away to shoot, so I'm shooting at Player 1
1st Player - I'm launching a missile
2nd Player - I am using my laser for point defense
1st Player - I'm launching a missile
2nd Player - I am using my laser for point defense
etc...

So IF you have a mix of weapons, you can use your missiles to soak up their energy fire. It was the same in SFB with drones - use your phasers for offense, or hold them back for potential defense. But you had only ONE option per turn. Made for some interesting game choices and mechanic flow.

 

[ErinPalette]

They ARE quite deadly now, as they should be. I think one way to help balance the issue is that your lasers get ONE action per turn, NOT one offensive AND one defensive.

That isn't in the rules? I could have sworn it was somewhere in the rules that turret weapons could only fire once per turn, and therefore if you used them offensively you couldn't use them for point defense that same turn.

 

[ErinPalette]

The kinetic missile for close range work. Fire at what you see in the weapon sights. A missile that gets around the current injunction on adjacent ranges. Can't be jammed. Smaller and lighter again so fighters can carry a heap. :?:

So basically a dumbfire rocket pod?

 

[AndrewW]

Missiles should have a much higher rate of fire. In my army days we ripple-fired a dozen rockets in less than 60 seconds - and we could move our launcher slightly between each one. Missiles in general are still very much stuck in the 1970s.

Could be each 'missile' in Traveller represents a pod of missiles, doesn't really have to be a single missile.

 

[wbnc]

The kinetic missile for close range work. Fire at what you see in the weapon sights. A missile that gets around the current injunction on adjacent ranges. Can't be jammed. Smaller and lighter again so fighters can carry a heap. :?:

So basically a dumbfire rocket pod?

If this place had a like button I'd hit it....

That would be a good close in weapon, and maybe a better way to arm civilian ships with some form of rocket/missile..they would need a turret type mount to be aimed and fired, or fired from fixed mounts on fighters/smallcraft.

short ranged max, cheap as sin, and not dangerous enough to a full scale combat vessel to warrant the heavy restrictions I can see missiles being under. point defense would be a real effective, and hitting would be a pain....but if they are cheap and you can toss them out a decent rate it would be a good weapon.

 

[wbnc]

Missiles should have a much higher rate of fire. In my army days we ripple-fired a dozen rockets in less than 60 seconds - and we could move our launcher slightly between each one. Missiles in general are still very much stuck in the 1970s.

Could be each 'missile' in Traveller represents a pod of missiles, doesn't really have to be a single missile.

thats a good variation on the theme.

I am going to throw my vote for making what ErinPalette suggested...dumbfire rockets...as a cheap alternative to missiles.

Leave missile prices alone and add rocket/turret weapons pods to the mix. So you get a good poorboy weapon. For more affluent users, you get a missile that has teeth, but you pay for the bite.

My suggestion would be limiting the rockets to short range or closer,turret/fixed only, and make them easier to shoot down..but maybe include a way to fire them off in salvos..like the mechanics in place for a multi-warhead missile.

 

[phavoc]

In starfire rockets were direct fire sprint mode missiles, and you couldn't intercept them. If you are going to make them cheap make them fighter carried weapons so they have to close with the enemy. Combat isn't going to be knife distance for naval fleets, but might for adventure class ships.

 

[madmike]

Al that aside, I am finding little niggles all through the issue of missiles.

1 missile load out provides 12 missiles at 1dT.

Yet barbettes hold enough missiles internally for 5 x5 round salvos = 25 missiles. Where does the extra missile come from? Handwavium?

Missile Bay ammo numbers and salvos are fine.