There seems to be something wrong with Shadow craft??

[Captain Kremmen]

Hi all,

Played a big game last night 3 shadow ships + a hunter and 3 scouts against I think the Excalibur, whitestar carrier, 2 whitestar gunships and 9 whitestars. (Not sure if the points were quite right, but close enough)

The shadows were cut to pieces for very little loss to the ISA. The Shadows were mostly firing one weapon per big ship per turn, they had to target whitestars as they were the only thing in range and the 50:50 dodge of the whitestars were making them difficult targets for even an Armageddon level shadow craft to kill.

I am trying to work out if we did something wrong. Neither the shadows or ISA used their jump drives just started on board. I think this worked against the shadows as they are so slow. When both fleets have advanced jump engines what do most people tend to do?

I also think the shadows are woefully undergunned for their big ships. The toaster has almost as much firepower as an Armageddon level shadow ship, which only has one lousy gun that doesn’t even have that many dice. Remember these things cost 4 times as much as a tertius, I do not think I would even say they have double the firepower of a tertius?

What have other people found, this was my first game with ancients. I was on the ISA side controlling the whitestars, only got 2 killed for the whole game. We used the white stars in squadrons of 3, that did seem a good idea.

Cpt K

 

[Burger]

The Ship is not all that good, especially against ISA. Victory is a hard ship to kill, and the WS dodge the Ship's weapon quite effectively.

Try taking 24 Shadow Scouts instead... WS BBQ!!! Just watch out for those WS Fighters.

 

[H]

This is a common complaint from our shadow player, they just don't hurt enough, considering the hail of fire they usually come under, he plays agains minbo's and ISA, and I don't think he has won yet.

 

[Alexb83]

The undergunned feeling carries over to the Vorlons (except the Heavy Cruiser). They compensate somewhat for it with AA, whereas Shadows whilst not getting AA, do get more speed, SM, a scout and free fighters (and hull 6 on the ship).

Not quite sure if the tradeoffs are really worth it. TBH, when hit (especially with DD weapons) both Vorlons and Shadows work out easier to kill than most other races. They're both very, very difficult races to play, problem compounded by limited (almost non existent) fleet options at the typical 5Raid level.

Were I you, I probably would've used the hyperspace entry option to get in close and start taking things apart with those shadow ships, and get those scouts in where they can ignore dodges on the whitestars!

 

[katadder]

dont forget shadows can make one turn and go double speed instead of moving normally too, so they not all that slow.
ISA is the worst to take on with shadows though as they were almost designed for kililng ancients, combined with all those precise weapons, and even precise fighters any ancient will have a hard time.
as for battle size think the shadows have 4 armageddon points and the ISA 3 and half.

 

[Burger]

ISA is the worst to take on with shadows though as they were almost designed for kililng ancients, combined with all those precise weapons, and even precise fighters any ancient will have a hard time.

Challenge him to 5 point Raid then... he takes 5 WS, you take 5 Scouts. You will win, very easily.

as for battle size think the shadows have 4 armageddon points and the ISA 3 and half.

They both have 8 War points, although 3 of the WS could have been upgraded to WSC-2 for free
Actually they both have 4 exactly Armageddon points, too. WS Gunship is War level remember, we're not in 2e yet

 

[katadder]

aah good point, forgot that. sometimes its confusing like that
shadowscouts could probably beat WSs due to ignoring dodge, but depends if they can get within that range 8" of their weapons. they at severe range disadvantage.

 

[Burger]

aah good point, forgot that. sometimes its confusing like that
shadowscouts could probably beat WSs due to ignoring dodge, but depends if they can get within that range 8" of their weapons. they at severe range disadvantage.

5 Shadow Scouts will totally own 5 WS every time. Give it a try if you don't believe me!
6 dice of anti-fighter, SAP, double damage... a WS dies very quickly indeed. SM means they can keep out of at least some of the WS's arcs.
And like you said...

dont forget shadows can make one turn and go double speed instead of moving normally too, so they not all that slow.

 

[katadder]

still slower than a WS arnt they? and its all about init, altho +6 v +2 admittedly is gonna win most.
thing is WSs are not the best raid ships around atm.

i said they probably would win most the time, but sometimes the WSs will get lucky.

5pt raid as ISA i would make sure to take allies anyway so 3 shadow scouts would move before i even move my 1st whitestar.

 

[H]

still slower than a WS arnt they? and its all about init, altho +6 v +2 admittedly is gonna win most.
thing is WSs are not the best raid ships around atm.

i said they probably would win most the time, but sometimes the WSs will get lucky.

And luck can count for a whole lot, the best laid plans can be messed up bu the wrong crit at the wrong time, and dice rolling is all down to chance!

 

[Burger]

still slower than a WS arnt they?

Scout: speed 9, so can turn 90 and go 18", plus firing range of 8" makes 26" danger zone.
WS: speed 22.5" on APTE, and can't return fire since it can't turn.

and its all about init, altho +6 v +2 admittedly is gonna win most.

It's not about init at all. Scouts would still win easily, even if they lost init every time.

i said they probably would win most the time, but sometimes the WSs will get lucky.

WS will have to get very, very lucky. Since Shadows don't take crits, they can't be killed by a "lucky crit", whereas the WS can. Or a complete numpty playing the Shadows.

 

[katadder]

didnt reply to the allies 3 allies move along with 3 SS, then WSs start moving.

also if the SS goes 18" it cant turn afterwards anyway and is fore arc guns too.

 

[Burger]

didnt reply to the allies 3 allies move along with 3 SS, then WSs start moving.

Kill the allies first, then. Vaarls you say? Oh thats no problem, stealth 5 goes to 4 because I am ancient, 3 because I am within 8", and 2 because I have lots of scouts to reduce stealth. Byebye to all 3 Vaarl/Vaarka in 1 turn! If you're lucky you'll kill 1 Scout, so it is then 4 Scouts vs 4 WS.

 

[katadder]

even if i uses them how you think you get within 8" in one turn? they would be playing the corners if used for init sinks.
wouldnt all play to your liking make sure they stay away from anything you can do with range 8.

 

[Burger]

Seriously just try it out. I have, on several occasions. It doesn't work.

If you split your forces up then you have divide & conquered for me... I just go for one at a time, and all the time your WS are turning around to give chase, I am self-repairing.

 

[H]

it's the WS V Rongoths argument all over again, Burger will remain stubborn and never back down! this post could go on for ever!

 

[Locutus9956]

Trust me, Burgers right on this one we've (we meaning mea and my local game club by the way, never actually played Burger myself) tried it before and even pre armageddon using SFoS Shadows and SFoS WHITESTARS, the shadows absolutely trounce the ISA. Its pretty much guarenteed.

 

[Burger]

it's the WS V Rongoths argument all over again, Burger will remain stubborn and never back down! this post could go on for ever!

Yes, I speak from experience, I have tried this battle before, on several occasions. I can't "change my mind" about what happened!

 

[H]

it's the WS V Rongoths argument all over again, Burger will remain stubborn and never back down! this post could go on for ever!

Yes, I speak from experience, I have tried this battle before, on several occasions. I can't "change my mind" about what happened!

never expected you too

 

[katadder]

the only divide bit is the niit sinks anyway, stayign away from shadow scouts.
like i said the SS would most likely win, but there are ways and means. also SR whilst WSs turn round? WSs turn around in one round and have you in range again normally.