Theoretical Dilgar & Drakh Armageddon ships.

[WickedE]

Posted'em at B5acta.com, let's see what you all think. The Dilgar first:

Okar'Tak-class Warcruiser
Priority: Armageddon

Hull: 6 Dam: 98/12 Crew: 100/10 Troops: 12 Speed: 8
Turns: 1/45
Craft: 6 Thorun Dartfighters
In-Service: ???
Special: Jump Point, Command +2, Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, Shuttles 2

Weapons:
Bolter Cannon 18" B, 4AD, AP, Beam, D-Dam
Heavy Bolters 15" F/A, 14AD-F/6AD-A AP, D-Dam
Disruptor Torpedoes 20" F, 6AD, AP, D-Dam?, Slo-Lo
Quad Pulsars 10" T, 8AD
Pulsars 8" F/A/P/S F:10AD/A:6AD/P:8AD/S:8AD

Description: Designed as the Ultimate Dilgar ship, the Okar'Tak was never put into production as the plans were finalized while the Imperium was in retreat from Markab space. Made to literally fill space with Pulsars while its fighters deployed or its shuttles offloaded troops, and then swoop in with bolters to finish off targets, the Okar'Tak was to have mounted the next innovation of Bolter technology, the Bolter Cannon. Dilgar scientists had created a weapon that could not only fire in rapid succession, but in a focused burst that would bypass defense systems. The Okar'Tak was to be the first to mount this revolutionary weapon, but when the Dilgar began their retreat back to Omelos, production plans were halted, and the designs ended up falling into the hands of Ror'Kash and Warmaster Lo'Phran, who would go on to be the leader of the Ghosts of Omelos. There are rumors among Raider cells about the Ghosts stealing parts and resources for a new, massive ship since their existence was first whispered about, but few actually believe it to be possible.


Next the Drakh!

Drakh Hiveship
Priority: Armageddon
Hull: 3 Dam: 120/12 Crew:130/13
Troops: 10 Speed: 4 Turns: 1/45
In-Service: 2267+ Craft: 10 Breaching Pods
Special: Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Gravitic Energy Grid 4, Carrier 4, Huge Hangars 12*, Command +2

* = Can carry 12 Light/Heavy Raiders or Scouts, 4 Light Cruisers or Fast Destroyers, or 2 Cruisers or Carriers

Weapons:
Heavy Neutron Cannon: F/A 25" F:4AD/A:4AD Super AP, Beam, Double Damage, Precise
Pulse Cannons: F/A/P/S 10" F: 18AD/ A: 8AD/ P:10AD/ S: 10AD AP, Twin-Linked

Description:
Similar in outward appearance to the Mothership (And has been mistaken for such), the Hiveship is the largest ship in the Drakh Armada. A Floating fortress, ship construction yard, and flagship, the Drakh consider the Hiveship the closest thing they have to a homeworld, and guard it accordingly. These vessels are rarely encountered, more often in hiding, constructing more warships for the Drakh Armada. When actually used in battle, it is an imposing ship because of its sheer size, and can vomit out a fleet of raiders or flotilla's of larger ships as its Neutron Cannons and Pulse Cannons fill the space around it with explosions.


See what the Dilgar and Drakh players think about that.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Okar'Tak-class Warcruiser
Priority: Armageddon

Hull: 6 Dam: 98/12 Crew: 100/10 Troops: 12 Speed: 8
Turns: 1/45
Craft: 6 Thorun Dartfighters
In-Service: ???
Special: Jump Point, Command +2, Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, Shuttles 2

Weapons:
Bolter Cannon 18" B, 4AD, AP, Beam, D-Dam
Heavy Bolters 15" F/A, 14AD-F/6AD-A AP, D-Dam
Disruptor Torpedoes 20" F, 6AD, AP, D-Dam?, Slo-Lo
Quad Pulsars 10" T, 8AD
Pulsars 8" F/A/P/S F:10AD/A:6AD/P:8AD/S:8AD

Ah, I see you have found the 'end wall problem'. There's very limited room for development in the Dilgar without inventing new weapon systems for them to use; and even then you have the 'and this is worth it because...' problem.
I reckon there's precious little point inventing new ships that are less combat- worthy than those that already exist- what use are they ever going to see? On the other hand, uber'ing it is also not right...so the real goal is "the same but different". With the Dilgar, that means you basically have to take people's attention away from the Targrath by providing tactical alternatives, which is not easy. Most of the official fleet list doesn't do it, for a start.
I went a very long way over the top with my own Armageddon- level dilgar, largely because I had that problem very firmly in mind. "How do I make people want to take this monster instead of six Targrath?" Think that way and you find yourself justifying an unholy amount of firepower.

Specifics; this thing looks more like a Mishakur descendant, moving the extra forward pulsars to a turret. Stripping two banks of drivers to mount the bolter cannon- I just don't think it has the throw weight to justify itself as a choice. Against two Mankhat or Mishakur, I can't see it coming out ahead- against either and a support flotilla, definitely not.

 

[WickedE]

You coudl argue that with any real Armageddon ship. Why take a Nemesis When I could get three Omega's or 4 Chronos? Why take an Adira instead of two Octurions or Three Primus? Dunno, just seems like the same argument. Sure it's probably not worth three Tikrits or four Targraths, but It's a shot in the dark either way.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

It's a problem; an Armageddon- level ship with enough actual combat ability to justify it's price would be so far above the current power curve, you could use the screams as fuel for an orbital sonic disruptor.
The only real edge this thing has over existing Dilgar designs is minor- an AP beam isn't going to get much of a rally, most of the time, except against weak and support ships. It just doesn't say 'dreadnought primary weapon'. I'd stick the bolter cannon on an Ochlavita variant and call it a testbed model, personally.
I'm not going to defend the indefensible and stand up for the Nemesis; Instead, let's look at the Armageddon level Warlock, actually as an example of a good upgrade. (No, I'm not kidding, and I want it back at War PL too. It's still better than most of the rest.)
It's good because it expands the capabilities of the fleet; it does something that it's equivalent weight in Omegas can't- take on multiple enemies at close quarters. It does something it's equivalent weight in Chronos can't either, with the shipkilling heavy particle cannon. For all that I join in hating it's rise in PL, it is actually one of the better extensions of a fleet list. I think, anyway.
The Adira and Ka'Bin'Tak are evolution rather than revolution, which seems a bloody odd thing to say about the Adira's GEG, but the blocking abilities are trivial compared to the firepower it's going to attract and it seems to give up interceptors to get them. Not better, just bigger. Which comes with a world of problems all it's own.

 

[WickedE]

Hrm. So maybe take the Bolter Cannon off and add more dice all around? It's an idea.
Making a bigger Dilgar ship...wouldn't that be stacking Two Wahants on top of each other? :lol:
Seriously, What I was trying with this one was to give it something on a Cruiser Hull that a lot of Dilgar Cruisers don't have: Outright Obliteration.
Yeah, the Targrath and Tikrits with 12AD of Bolters can shred smaller ships and really cut a hole or cripple larger ones (On a regular basis, mind you. I have seen a Tikrit shred a fresh battle level ship with lucky crits, but we're talking on average.), but it's only really fielded in squadrons where they can outright destroy something. Now their Assault ships have serious destructive power, but have a serious speed disadvantage that seems to hinder their effectiveness. With 14AD of Bolters, 6AD of Torpedoes, 8AD of Quad Pulsars, and 10AD of forward pulsars, It'd fit the Chainsaw Mentality of the Dilgar to a T. Plus, with a Speed of 8 and 12 with AptE, it can keep up with the Tikrits and Targrath's it ought to be squadroned with, therein giving it the REAL destructive edge when grouped with similar Cruisers.
I think I'm going to have my Dilgar player try it out some time this week, see how it performs.

 

[Shadow Queen]

Any plans for a Drakh Templeship?? The biggest of the Drakh ships that had there masters on in the darkness of the temple

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Two Wahants on top of each other? How big a wall are you trying to build here? :lol:
Compared to the War- level Mankhat, though- 10 dice heavy bolter vs 14, same disruptor torp fit, significant increase in pulsars- 18AD versus 6, bolt cannon versus one set of mass drivers, the Okar'Tak's main edge is not in firepower at all, it's in survivability. A larger set of light defensive weapons reinforces that image.
Even more so with the Mishakur, which can match the Okar'Tak for pulsar and torpedo fire forward, is only two bolter dice short, and carries two mass driver batteries instead of the bolter cannon.
The Okar'Tak seems designed to last long enough to get more use out of a not drastically more effective weapon fit. Maybe it'll work.

 

[WickedE]

Well I'm still finessing the layout. I am still debating on whether taking out the Bolter Cannon and adding more dice to the secondary Weapons; 14AD of Bolters seem's pretty heavy enough as a primary weapon.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

It is enough; I think we're more or less agreeing on this one, just talking past each other a bit.
What I reckon the problem is is that the Dilgar peak very early in firepower terms- Raid level- leaving themselves nowhere else to go. Similar firepower, added survivability is an approach I never explicitly tried, so can you tell us all how it worked out?

 

[WickedE]

Yeah. I'll give the thing a whirl come monday and tuesday, see how it plays. Maybe try it out like this:
1 Armageddon ship + 2 Battle Point

So like an Okar'Tak, 2 Targrath, 3 Omelos vs. another race...haven't decided who.

 

[Obsidian]

Okar'Tak-class Warcruiser
Priority: Armageddon

Hull: 6 Dam: 98/12 Crew: 100/10 Troops: 12 Speed: 8
Turns: 1/45
Craft: 6 Thorun Dartfighters
In-Service: ???
Special: Jump Point, Command +2, Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, Shuttles 2

Weapons:
Bolter Cannon 18" B, 4AD, AP, Beam, D-Dam
Heavy Bolters 15" F/A, 14AD-F/6AD-A AP, D-Dam
Disruptor Torpedoes 20" F, 6AD, AP, D-Dam?, Slo-Lo
Quad Pulsars 10" T, 8AD
Pulsars 8" F/A/P/S F:10AD/A:6AD/P:8AD/S:8AD

Taking a look at this after reading about your post on the test results against an Adira and I'd like to suggest a few changes. First off, the bolter cannon should really be a laser. By the fluff, they had just started to figure out lasers towards the end of the war and had mounted one on the Ochlavita. It isn't much of a stretch to say they built a bigger one to put on a bigger ship. Up the range to 20" and give it Super AP to match the technology they appear to have had at the time. Secondly, this thing really needs a Mass driver or two. I know that in pure game terms the things are next to worthless, but a big Dilgar ship like this without a Mass driver just doesn't feel right. Maybe give it a 15" range to make it a little more fearsome. Might also want to consider dropping the turretted Quad Pulsars in favor of making the other Pulsars Twin-linked. Again, this is in line with the technology seen on the Ochlavita just on a larger scale.

 

[WickedE]

The thing is, the Okar'Tak (SO need a better name), follows the Targrath-Tikrit Evolution, which while not mounting Mass Drivers, instead mount nasty numbers of Bolters with Pulsars backing them up. Mass Drivers would be something you could add on in a campaign through the refit table.

As far as the Laser technology, it seems that the Ochlavita mounts a Narn bought Heavy Laser cannon rather than one the Dilgar built themselves, and even then the Bolter cannon isn't really a laser; It's closer to a Mag Gun, akin to the Narn Mag gun, so I gave it the Beam trait.

 

[Obsidian]

Fair enough, but if that is the case shouldn't it lose the Port and Starboard weapons? Maybe drop the Pulsars all together in favor of a higher AD Turretted Quad Pulsar with Twin-link. For an Armegeddon ship the thing is pretty fast so stripping out the extra weapons would seem to be in line with that sort of speed.

Still for a ship of that size it just doesn't feel very Dilgar like to me. The Tikrit and Targrath are fast attack craft and I just don't see them scaling that concept up to something of this size. It would be like the Vree building a ship that wasn't saucer shaped.

 

[WickedE]

Losing the Port/Starboard weapons is certainly an idea I might try, Switching instead to one or Two Turreted Quad or Energy Pulsars.
As far as not scaling it up that far, you might be right.