The Veteran's Tavern (combat discussion)

[Clovenhoof]

Um yes, about the Sorcerer thing.

"A sorcerer must have both hands free, that is, he must not be carrying weapons [...]" -- I suppose this does not affect the Defensive Blast, but doesn't it make most spells impossible while you carry that staff around? And dropping the staff to pick it up after casting seems rather cheesy to me.

Concerning Faith: here are the gods/religions actually offer the benefit of Faith:
Buri, Ibis, Khitan Pantheon, Mitra, Turanian/Hyrkanian, Nordheimir, Zamorian.
It only occured to me now that Crom gives only +1 to Will as opposed to that +2 of civilised deities. Not fair. -.-

Ready an action to hit the lance as it comes into reach (the lance can be sundered before it hits you, the wielder has reach, but if he can reach you, you can sunder his weapon) do at least 13 points of damage (lance is 1 inch thick wood, 5 hardness, 8 HP) and then with greater sunder you get a free cleaving attack into the rider as he goes by holding a broken stick.

Only if you have a Reach weapon, too. Greater Sunder allows you an _immediate_ follow-up attack after destroying the weapon. If you smash the lance to splinters, the rider is still 10ft away in this very instant. The full move is resolved in a single combat phase, granted, but it doesn't feel right. The rider can't be at two places at the same time.

 

[argo]

Um yes, about the Sorcerer thing.

"A sorcerer must have both hands free, that is, he must not be carrying weapons [...]" -- I suppose this does not affect the Defensive Blast, but doesn't it make most spells impossible while you carry that staff around? And dropping the staff to pick it up after casting seems rather cheesy to me.

Hmm, an Atlentean Edition change! First Edition only required one hand for Somatic components (as usual for most d20 games). Also, check the listing for casiting a spell in the combat chapter of the Atlentean Edition, page 158. Says you need "at least one hand" to cast a spell with a Somatic component, not two.

If only one hand is required to cast a Somatic component then you take one hand off the staff (free action) cast the spell and place the hand back on the staff after casting (free action). You do not threaten with the staff durring the time you are casting, but that usually is not a significant issue, and it means you do not drop the staff.

But, given the discrepency in the text of the AE, I wonder which passage takes precidence? Rule of primairy sources would indicate that the passage in the Sorcery chapter should take precidence for sorcery issues over the Combat chapeter. But that rather ruins the whole "sorcer's staff" concept now doesn't it? Heck the book even notes that Khitan scholars perfer to use their Staff of Death to deliver their touch attacks!

Sigh...

 

[Clovenhoof]

Okay, if even argo can't clarify a rule contradiction, we need divine help from the Mongoose Rulesmasters.

 

[Clovenhoof]

You can also use a trip attack to pull the knight off of his mount. Though the rules don't say it I'd think its not too much of a stretch to use the grapple rules to unmount the knight either, just pin the knight then use the option to move your opponent after pinning him.

We had that situation last session. The party was attack by some riders, and two players had the idea to get the riders off their horses. So I suppose some proper mech is in order for that.

The player described his attempt as running towards the rider (who was about to engage someone else), jumping up the horse and pushing the rider off. Of course he drew an AoO but the rider missed.

At that point, I decided to handle it as a Grapple. The Grab succeeded but then the Hold failed. I wasn't sure how to interpret this, but most of all I didn't want to discourage my players from trying these stunts in the future, so my verdict was a semi-success: he managed to push the rider off the other side, but he also fell, adjacent to him, and both were prone. Had his Hold succeeded, he'd have landed on top of the rider, able to pin him.

(The next round, the PC acted first due to Ini, got to his feet and attacked the still prone rider. I was not sure about the rules but decided that a rider who had just crashed to the ground does not threaten another combatant that gets up from prone, so it didn't draw an AoO)

Now, on hindsight, I think Bull Rush would have been a better way to simulate this manoeuvre. To initiate, you might require a Jump check but it's no gamebreaker if you don't. You'd draw an AoO, then make an opposed Str check, and upon success, push the rider back 5' - i.e. off his horse, and in this case, prone.
A real cool character could attempt a ride check to immediately take over the horse, but normally he'd also fall off again. A Tumble check (DC12 or so) may be in order to see if he lands on his feet or on his ass.

Trip would also be an option, but I'd use this interpretation if the player says he grabs the leg and and pushes it up or pulls it down, either way trying to unbalance the rider. If he pushes, the rider will fall down the other side of the horse. If he pulls, they will be on the same side. The footman will remain standing and the rider may roll Tumble to see if he stands or drops prone.

 

[argo]

At that point, I decided to handle it as a Grapple. The Grab succeeded but then the Hold failed. I wasn't sure how to interpret this, but most of all I didn't want to discourage my players from trying these stunts in the future, so my verdict was a semi-success:

Good answer! I like that you adjudicated the situation based on how you wanted the players to behave in the future!

he managed to push the rider off the other side, but he also fell, adjacent to him, and both were prone. Had his Hold succeeded, he'd have landed on top of the rider, able to pin him.

Side note: usually falling off the mount deals 1d6 falling damage, a Ride check can negate this (you still fall but make it a "soft landing" )

(The next round, the PC acted first due to Ini, got to his feet and attacked the still prone rider. I was not sure about the rules but decided that a rider who had just crashed to the ground does not threaten another combatant that gets up from prone, so it didn't draw an AoO)

I assume that the enemy rider was not flat-footed since you had him make an AoO previously when the player tried to grab him. In that case a prone character can still make an AoO, he takes a -4 penalty to his melee attack.

Later.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Thanks for the heads-up, argo. I'm sure my players will get more opportunities to try stunts like these. ^^

Talking about stunts, yesterday I looked at the tables for carrying capacity... and realized for the first time that, if strong characters can carry or at least lift many times their own weight, they might as well pick up their opponents, for example in order to hurl them across the room. The typical man's weight should be around 160-200lbs + armour, which is a Light Load for a Str 24 character or Medium for Str 19.

Hell, a strong Barbarian might use them as improvised weapon... *g*

But let's stay with the idea of hurling. How would you treat that?
First rule attempt: You need to be strong enough to "Lift Over Head" your opponent. Grapple, and on successful hold, you can throw him. Maybe something like 1/2 Str bonus times 5'. The tossed character takes 1d6 falling damage (per 5' flung?) and lands prone.

Any experiences with that?

 

[Majestic7]

But let's stay with the idea of hurling. How would you treat that?
First rule attempt: You need to be strong enough to "Lift Over Head" your opponent. Grapple, and on successful hold, you can throw him. Maybe something like 1/2 Str bonus times 5'. The tossed character takes 1d6 falling damage (per 5' flung?) and lands prone.

Any experiences with that?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a

Look under "Other options while pinning your opponent". In addition to this, I believe there are grapple feats and maneuvers in Conan that allow all kind of fancy stuff during grapple. Human shield maneuver must be my favorite, especially as a strong man might well use a horse as a shield, hehe.

You might want to read all four All about grappling -articles. I went through those when I played a wrestler in D&D.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Thanks!

So here's WotC's answer for tossing a foe:
You need to pin your opponent. Then make an opposed grapple check as a melee attack. If you succeed, you can literally pick up your foe (provided you can lift your foe's weight). Make a Strength check; if your result is at least 10, you toss your foe 5 feet. For every 5 points your Strength check result exceeds 10, you toss your foe another 5 feet, to a maximum of 25 feet.

 

[Axerules]

Two weeks without anything posted in this thread. Damn !

Remember D&D :

Combat Isn't Everything - It's the Only Thing

• :wink:

A new topic : Environment


It's always easier to design encounters with characters fighting monsters in a dungeon/old crypt/castle and so on. No wind, no different terrains, the only thing to bother with is having light or not, and a trap from time to time...

But IMO Hyboria should present several environment challenges to the players.

First some rules for those who don't know where to find them : in this thread Foxworhty gave all the links to the missing rules from the SRD that are not in the core book.

IMO most combats in the Conan RPG can't be designed like in D&D. Conan spent more time outdoors than the average dungeon-crawler. The spot/listen checks, the Balance/Climb/Survival/Jump skills are far more important in my games than they ever were when I was a player in D&D 3.0 or 3.5. No magic to fly (or to avoid falling) when you face the man-ape while climbing a cliff. No freedom of movement to avoid hampered movement. Only skills and class abilities. And in D&D, as soon as you where able to teleport yourself and your friends, no more roads and voyages !

It is sometimes a little bit complicated. Designing encounters where characters have to fight while balancing/climbing/in sandstorms and so on requires more work from the GM. But IMO Hyboria MUST be like that.

A combat scene in a sandstorm was actually one of my favourites at my gaming table.

So, any thoughts ? Do you usually implement a lot of environmental challenges in your games ?

 

[Clovenhoof]

Heck yes!
Well, so far, not much, because the party was in a flat steppe with very sparse terrain features.
In their last big fight, they were attacked by riders. They were near a hill at the time, and they were clever enough to set up their defense on top of the hill. I wanted to keep it simple so I decided that their favourable position would offset any particular advantages the riders would have gotten for mounted attacks (in reality I just was too lazy to look it up in detail).

However, in the future they'll fight in rugged terrain, like hills, woodlands, moor, or also shipboard. In the end, most terrain features boil down to either attack/defense modifiers or total cover from one side. For example, getting your back to a big tree gives you one less side to worry about.
Of course, you might also climb into the tree -- I'll let you figure out what you can do then.

What's also cool about hilly terrain is that you can sneak up very close to an enemy if he's on the other side of a hill or ridge. The attacker would have to make a successful Listen check to find out the enemy's position, and the defender would get a Listen roll opposed by the attacker's Move Silently.

Being on a hilltop is usually favourable because an enemy has to go uphill to reach you, but of course it also exposes your position and makes you an easy target for ranged attacks.

Talking about ranged attacks, up- or downhill shots are more difficult than flat shots, so they should incur some penalties. I'd say at least -2 for uphill shots. But only for direct shots, not when you're firing an arc anyway. Downhill shots are also a bit more difficult but not as much as uphill - maybe it can be neglected.

Some ground conditions can also hamper movement. Soft sand would simply reduce your movement rate. Swamp or deep mud even more so, or even require Strength checks to keep you from getting stuck.

Sometimes the ground may be just slippery, for example when it's raining, or it may be frozen over, and so forth - that should call for reflex saves to avoid slipping and falling prone.

Don't forget visibility modifiers either. Darkness, fog, rain are obvious cases that affect all combatants equally (lowlight- or darkvision notwithstanding). But suppose the sun is low over the horizon, you can use that to your advantage, too. Fight with the sun in your back and avoid walking into it. You can have all sorts of effects - and in this case only the side attacking into the sun will suffer penalties.

 

[Oake]

My next campaign is in the Pictish wilderness. My players are going to face every conceivable environmental encounter I can through at them, from big snakes in the rivers, to wild animals, rampaging Picts, Picitish hunting traps set all over the place - its going to be fun!

 

[Clovenhoof]

*bump* 'been awfully quiet in this thread.

if I'm not mistaken, we're still missing the Grapple discussion.

I must admitt that in all my D20 games before now, I've always shunned the whole Grapple section like poison because of the terribly convoluted and slow rules. The introduction of Grapple Defense in Conan makes the whole maneuver more manageable. But now I prefer theCMB system introduced in Pathfinder that reduces all Special Attacks to a single roll.

But that only as an aside, now let's talk about the actual maneuver.

Grapple has many uses, especially with the Improved Feat, which has IUS as prereq but is certainly worth it, considering that you can duplicate certain effects of the other Special Attacks, and more:

* Grapple is awesome against an opponent with formidable melee attacks. Imagine a Power-Attacking Bardiche Wielder. As long as he's grappled, he can't use his fearsome weapons AT ALL, and can't even make AoOs.

* Same goes for opponents with enormous Defense. They may have Dodge and Parry through the roof, but as soon as they're grappled, they cannot Dodge or Parry non-grappling attackers at all. Which by the way makes them susceptible to Sneak Attack (which your non-grappling ally may carry out).

** It gets better: when an opponent is pinned, his Defense drops to _1_. So your ally can turn up the Power Attack and hammer away.

* Having trouble with human turtles wrapped in tons of armour? When grappling them and using the damage action, you may only make Unarmed Damage, but all of their equipment DR is ignored.

** This is especially useful in conjunction with the Crushing Grip feat. Maybe your unarmed damage is only 6. But if you take these points from a 10th-level opponent's CON, his HP go down not by 6 but by _30_ (if he botches his save, otherwise it's 10-20 points). [BTW I think the HP loss due to Con damage is probably not considered as HP damage... otherwise it would be really easy to trigger MDS]
Also, you can damages his STR so he'll never escape the grapple.

* Also, movement is hampered, though this is probably less important in most situations.

Most grappling consequences also apply to you, the attacker, i.e. you don't threaten, your defense is hampered etc., so you should be careful when numerous enemies are around.
However, there's also a way out of this dilemma: the Improved Grapple feat opens up the Human Shield combat maneuver, which allows you to Parry while grappling as long as you keep damaging your opponent every round. Also, the opponent's allies run the risk of hurting him when they attack you. And it keeps getting better:
* normally you use 2 hands to Grapple. However, you can also do it with just one hand if you accept a -4 penalty. If you still make your rolls despite the penalty, you have one hand free, with which you can actually hold a weapon and attack any other adjacent opponents at no penalty.
* if your opponent is killed in the process, he doesn't magically disappear in a puff of smoke. You can keep using the body as shield until you find something better, and logically don't even have to make Grapple checks anymore to do so (if you had to, your DC would be 5 because a dead body's Strength is obviously 0).

I'm going to put all these ideas to the test with my current character. I already have Improved Grapple and am going for Crushing Grip and Improved Trip, the latter opening up the Fling Aside combat maneuver. I also have to partly revoke my previous statement that Fling Aside was useless and never worth the hefty prereqs:

Fling Aside allows you to make use your off-hand attack to throw your opponent to the ground. Despite making a Grapple check using just one hand, you suffer no penalty. If you fail, nothing else happens - you don't provoke and AoO and can't be tripped in return either. If you succeed, your opponent takes unarmed damage and is prone (-4 to attacks and defense). When he tries to get up, you can AoO him.

Let's compare Fling Aside to the regular Improved Trip:
* The one big advantage over just (improved) tripping your opponent is that failure has no consequences, so you can just keep trying every round until you get it right, even against a superior opponent.
* While it's true you don't need a free hand for a trip attempt, the attempt still counts as Off-hand attack even if you're not using a hand (as clarified in http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a ).
* A successful Trip in itself does not do damage, but Improved Trip gives you a free followup attack, which is probably much more nasty than that bit of Unarmed Damage.
* Sometimes it's just a question of who you're attacking. If your opponent is a nimble grasshopper with high Dodge and Dex, he'll easily resist being tripped, but probably be rather weak against Grapple attempts (as these go against STR + BAB).

So much for now, it would be cool if we saw some fresh discussion in this thread. =)

 

[Krushnak]

* Having trouble with human turtles wrapped in tons of armour?

another additional bonus is because they have such low defense that it makes an ally finesse attacking really easy.