THE SURCOUF IS HERE!

[chaos0xomega]

dont listen to him my precious, he knows not what he says ::gollum gollum::

what are you talking about, it could dive, it just couldn't do it quickly or efficiently. Give the french credit for thinking outside the box for once...

 

[DM]

Its certainly dived now

 

[jfox61]

Hmm a sub that was crap at diving and when it did, not very efficiently. Yep ok I will give the French credit for that

 

[jfox61]

It was such a successful design they built hundreds. Oh sorry I meant one

 

[chaos0xomega]

They planned three. But you know, the French economy, just like the rest of the world, wasn't quite there to build two more, was there.

Its better then the English version at least. Steam power and smokestacks isn't exactly ideal when you are submerged, or safe for that matter

 

[DM]

Ah, but the K boats were ahead of their time (as were the more successful R boats). Surcouf was a technological dead end

 

[chaos0xomega]

YOU TAKE THAT BACK! :evil:

If the French were better at building stuff then they are, then MAYBE the Surcouf wouldn't have had the problems it did. Instead, maybe it would have been extremely successful, and other nations would have followed suit with their own similar and successful cruiser submarines. Maybe surface warships would be obsolete now, with all oceangoing vessels conducting actions underneath the waves and surfacing only to launch air and land attacks on unsuspecting foes!

 

[jfox61]

But it wasn't it was crap it sunk without trace the Brits laughed at it they didn't want itand yes you are right the french are crap at building things they went from the surcouf to the 2cv which probably had better sea keeping qualities lol

 

[jfox61]

oh and isn't that what nuclear subs do now underwater for months ata time. And they don't even have to surface to fire. Andthey don't have a silly gun on top and 1 shot torpedo tubes. Lets face it it was pants and good for novelty value only. An interesting concept that was doomed to failure.

 

[chaos0xomega]

You cant go against one shot torpedo tubes, it wasn't considered uncommon in those days.

And no, that is not what modern nuclear subs do. Modern subs are one trick ponies(more or less), they're either really good at launching missiles and blowing stuff up with mushroom clouds, or they are really good at launching torpedos and blowing stuff up underwater.

What I am talking about is entire underwater battlefleets made up of countless vessels that can travel unseen, pop up off the coast of say... Iran, and then lay siege with large guns and/or missiles and possibly land troops and tanks and act as underwater aircaft carriers.

 

[Hugbiel]

If the French were better at building stuff then they are, then MAYBE the Surcouf wouldn't have had the problems it did.

Every other nation that try to build such vessel as an submarine cruiser failed to made an functional ship. But a cruiser submarine wasn't the future just has every battle cruiser like the end of Yamato shown.

But I thing the patrol level didn't gave justice to his cost. Because for nearly the same cost you can have a fast armored cruiser able to survive a little. And since the french are the one to have to protect comercial line, it wasn't such a good idea to made known ship efficient for raiding.

 

[DM]

And no, that is not what modern nuclear subs do. Modern subs are one trick ponies(more or less), they're either really good at launching missiles and blowing stuff up with mushroom clouds, or they are really good at launching torpedos and blowing stuff up underwater.

Or sinking enemy surface ships, or laying mines, or launching deep strikes with conventionally armed TLAMs, or conducting surveillance operations, or deploying special forces.......

That pony has quite a few tricks

 

[jfox61]

And they can dive properly . I mean what happened to the Surcouf? noone knows but I have a theory. I think a Frenchman went to the head and instead of the toilet flushing it filled with water. Lets face it the french can't even do a proper public toilet

 

[jfox61]

Joking aside though are there any models of the Surcouf available? Personally I think it is a little too powerful for its historical counterpart. Since the Surcouf from its conception was mechanically unsound and suffered from numerous problems should the special rules not have taken this into account. I know it doesn't allow you to dive if hit but lets face it 1 hit and it is probably sunk anyway so thats not that big a handicap. Would you actually want to surface it anyway as you only get 1 shot with its gun. And if you chose not to surface then its Torpedo armament is much weaker than a conventional sub. They were designed I believe as commerce raiders but would they have actually been able to stand up to even a destroyer considering its poor dive capabilities slow speed poor armament and large signature. They would have been so easy to track and too slow to escape

 

[DM]

The same comemnts could be made about many of the ships currently in VAS. However, as with most rules, there is an assumption of mechanical reliability built into the system (otherwise German WW2 players would have big problems with Tigers for example)

 

[juggler69uk]

other nations would have followed suit with their own similar and successful cruiser submarines.

the Surcouf did not really fire its guns underwater though now did it.

Take a look at the Japanese carrier sub sen toku class

http://www.combinedfleet.com/sen_toku.htm

3 floatplane Aichi M6A1 Seiran bombers/torpedo bombers, torpedos and radar

 

[chaos0xomega]

And no, that is not what modern nuclear subs do. Modern subs are one trick ponies(more or less), they're either really good at launching missiles and blowing stuff up with mushroom clouds, or they are really good at launching torpedos and blowing stuff up underwater.

Or sinking enemy surface ships, or laying mines, or launching deep strikes with conventionally armed TLAMs, or conducting surveillance operations, or deploying special forces.......

That pony has quite a few tricks

::SSHHHHH::

I know that, but does he know that?

Joking aside though are there any models of the Surcouf available?

Yep, Navwar, Skytrex and Panzerschiffe are the only ones afaik.

Since the Surcouf from its conception was mechanically unsound and suffered from numerous problems should the special rules not have taken this into account.

The Graf Zeppelin was never even built, shouldn't the rules take this into account? And if it was built, the catapults and arresting gear were insufficient, shouldn't the rules take this into account?

Would you actually want to surface it anyway as you only get 1 shot with its gun.

Where's it say that? Its not a oneshot weapon.

They were designed I believe as commerce raiders but would they have actually been able to stand up to even a destroyer considering its poor dive capabilities slow speed poor armament and large signature.

I think the general idea was that they would attack convoy escorts(if present) with torpedos, and then once the resistance was out of hte way, they would surface, launch the spotter plane, and open fire with the main guns.

the Surcouf did not really fire its guns underwater though now did it.

Yes I know that, I was just giving a 'high tech' example.

 

[jfox61]

what I meant when I said one shot was that it has 1 8" turret giving 1 ad and 1 dd not exactly war winning is it and one broadside against it will probably kill it.. Basically a 1 gun cruiser with no armour or a sub that hasn't got a very good torpedo complement. As for taking out a convoys escort 1st I don't think that wold have happend. There would have been too many escorts to take out having to surface to fire 1 8" gun turret against even 2 destroyers would have almost been suicidal. With its slow rate of dive I very much doubt a surcouf class would even think about surfacing to take on any type of surface ship. It wouldn't surprise me if an Elco pt boat would be able to take on one of these and win.

 

[Leadman]

Viking Forge makes a model of it in 1/2400.

Dannie

 

[DM]

One of the Japanese "candy toy" companies (Takara?) does a lovely full-hull model in 1/700. Mr Chaos out to get one!