The Neglected Ships

[Democratus]

While I was looking through my models today while putting together a Centauri force, I noticed a few poor guys who simply never get to see the tabletop. It seems that there is always a better choice for the FAP than these guys. This is a thread for them.

I'll name the ships which I have but never use:

Centauri

Morgrath: The only Centauri ship with a DD beam, but it's short range and tiny AD makes it not worthwhile - especially when competing with the Maximus and Vorchan.

Centurian: I never pull this guy out because I can get a Sulust or Elutarian for the same cost. It has decent firepower, decent speed, and is reasonably tough. But I'd always rather have the beams of the Sulust and the range of the Elutarian - not to mention the fighters of the Balvarin.

Narn

Rothan: This guy has little to reccomend it. It has few and poor weaponry, average toughness, and low manuverability. We can never find a reason to take it rather than a Ka'Toc or Thentus.

Dilgar

Ochlavita: Only a little bit more firepower than the Ochlavita-Ki, but without the excellent command abilities. Honestly, there is little to reccommend the Dilgar at Skirmish level - but this ship is truly a redheaded stepchild.

What ships do you often find left gathering dust on the shelves? Have you found a good use for any of the oft-overlooked vessels in the game?

I'd love to hear your opinions.

 

[Target]

I'd disagree with the Centurion, i use him over the Sulust usually. Love him to be with my Vorchans even though they go 12 but then sentri's are there for interceptors. Has side firepower to cover the Vorchans as well. A Centurion & 2 Vorchans screaming down a flank is something to be truly wary of.
Agree with Morgath but i feel the Sulust is similar with style of play i use. No side weapons on a raid ship is a bit of nightmare when you only have 1 turn. 24" beam is good though. This all might be to my inability to roll well with beams.

 

[AdrianH]

Isn't the Rothan just a variant of the Rongoth?

I haven't played Drakh myself, but I'll nominate the Heavy Raider. Compared to the Light Raider, its laser is double damage. For that you pay with 45 degree turns instead of 90 degree, about 2/3 speed, and poorer dodge.

And does anybody ever use Corporate Tankers by choice in scenarios which require the use of civilian ships? Basically it's the same as a Corporate Freighter except that it's much more likely to explode, meaning you don't want your convoy in a nice, close, easily defended formation.

If we're allowing unused variants as well as entirely unused models, I can't see any use for the Pulse Omega unless you're short of Novas. For the same FAP as a Pulse Omega you can get two Novas, meaning more pulse cannons, twice as many fighters, one more init sink and backup in case one of them is critted out of action. The Abbai Marata is another one - compared to the Milani, lose the beam and fighters in exchange for a slightly better shield. Granted, the Kotha isn't a good fighter but it's better than nothing, which is what the Marata has.

 

[M1ndr1d3rs]

@ Democratus:

Does that mean the Octurion still get to see some action? More than a centurion? :shock:

 

[Da Boss]

Seldom Used ships

Centauri - the problem is that we have ships at pretty much every PL that are very good so the few that are medicore just don't get picked.

Centurion - I don't like its appearance! Alot of people do use it however. I'd rather use - in order - Balvarin, Elutarian and Sullust.

Octurion - its not so much that its weak (although it could be a upgraded slightly) its that the Centauri battle level choices (all 3 of them) are just so good and two of them, IMHO, are far superior to the Octurion.

Morgrath - yep never used.

Narn - a special word for the G'Quan - its get used far more than it should do - usually cos people like the model.

 

[McKickaha]

Seldom Used ships

Narn - a special word for the G'Quan - its get used far more than it should do - usually cos people like the model.

Agree on the G'Quan

On the opposite end of the same problem there are also a few ships where I dislike the mini so much that I for a long time did not use them and even now never use the official mini;

Narn -Varnic & Minbari Morshin being my two pet hates. (I have problems with the size of both as well as the design). Sharlin is also too small but thats another story.

I use my scratchbuilt Narn light cruiser design to replace the Varnic and a GW ship for the Morshin although I am working on a scratchbuilt replacment for this one as well.

 

[nightshade]

But the G'Quan was upgraded in P&P. Do people still think it is under-powered? It looks much more robust now.

 

[Tolwyn]

Robust is one thing, but the ship still has tons of secondary weapons which will nearly never be used while the Beam is still underpowered compared to an EA Omega. At least in the show the Beam and was nearly the only weapon the Quan fired at all, but it hurt, exept for the E-Mines in one episode.

 

[AdrianH]

Compare an Omega with a 6D beam and 48 damage to a G'Quan with a 5D beam and 70 damage. Granted, the Omega has 6 chances to get a critical, but then the G'Quan is probably doing CBD and therefore on average ignores 1 in 6 criticals.

Put three Omegas against three G'Quans and see what happens. Especially if the Omegas are 3rd Age or one of the G'Quans is actually a G'Tal, meaning the Narn are more likely to win initiative and less likely to need a TTT for one of their ships to fire.

Things get more interesting when the range closes. Not because of the secondaries, but because anything in a G'Quan's boresight within 9" is probably about to be rammed. Or, if an enemy ship only moved half speed (crippled or with a -4 speed engine critical), the G'Quan has 8 troops waiting to board it.

 

[Greg Smith]

Put three Omegas against three G'Quans and see what happens.

ACTA is a fleet game. Put a G'Quan in a balanced fleet against a similar EA fleet with an Omega. Watch the Omegas superior (in number, speed and dogfight) fighters easily deal with the G'Quan's. Watch as the Omega's superior ranged secondaries deal damage wile the EA are able to stay outside of 8" and still fire back. Watch the Omega's interceptors eat up incoming fire. See the Omega cleverly maneuver and get front and rear boresights, giving it twice the beam AD of the G'Quan. And lastly see the Omega fire its light lasers that completely ignore the hull of any Narn ship that happens to get with 15" of the Omega's flank.

Now in a 1 one 1, head on fight against Omegas, the G'Quan might hold its own, until it got into secondary range. On CBD, the G'Quan might even ignore a crit or two if it was lucky. At 12" the Omega looks vastly superior. As they pass, the Omega has more weapons and defences. And once they pass one another, its all over for the G'Quan.

Compare the G'Quan to the Avioki or Milani, and suddenly it actually starts to look quite good. And the Avioki isn't a bad ship. But the Omega just has too much stuff that the G'Quan doesn't.

 

[Target]

Seldom Used ships

Centurion - I don't like its appearance!

second that

 

[Democratus]

Agreed. Looking at Earth's Omega, the Centauri Primus, or the Minbari Tinashi its shortcomings become obvious.

Primary beam weapon AD/type/Arc
G'Quan: 5 AD - DD - Boresight
Omega: 6 AD - DD - Boresight
Primus: 6 AD - P - FA
Tinashi: 4 AD - P/DD - FA

The G'Quan primary weapon is inferior in one or more ways to every other ship.

Secondary weapons range/type:
G'Quan: 8" TL
Omega: 15" MB/SL
Primus: 12" DD/TL
Tinashi: 18" MB

The G'Quan's big weakness is that its secondary weapon is very much below par for a Battle-level ship of a major power.

As an offensive tool, the G'Quan simply doesn't stack up. The expectation must be that the large number of damage/crew will compensate. But experienced players know that once you have delved into 40+ points of damage you are often seeing enough criticals that your ship is combat ineffective. The G'Quan, then, merely has the honor of becoming moving terrain when other ships would have been destroyed. Not exactly a fair trade.

 

[Foxmeister]

Put three Omegas against three G'Quans and see what happens.

ACTA is a fleet game. Put a G'Quan in a balanced fleet against a similar EA fleet with an Omega. Watch the Omegas superior (in number, speed and dogfight) fighters easily deal with the G'Quan's. Watch as the Omega's superior ranged secondaries deal damage wile the EA are able to stay outside of 8" and still fire back. Watch the Omega's interceptors eat up incoming fire. See the Omega cleverly maneuver and get front and rear boresights, giving it twice the beam AD of the G'Quan. And lastly see the Omega fire its light lasers that completely ignore the hull of any Narn ship that happens to get with 15" of the Omega's flank.

Now in a 1 one 1, head on fight against Omegas, the G'Quan might hold its own, until it got into secondary range. On CBD, the G'Quan might even ignore a crit or two if it was lucky. At 12" the Omega looks vastly superior. As they pass, the Omega has more weapons and defences. And once they pass one another, its all over for the G'Quan.

Compare the G'Quan to the Avioki or Milani, and suddenly it actually starts to look quite good. And the Avioki isn't a bad ship. But the Omega just has too much stuff that the G'Quan doesn't.

I have only one word to sum up my feeling towards this post, and that word is....

Word!

Good analysis Greg - sums up my feelings on the G'Quan to a tee, with just a single omission!

Which is better: 4 Auroras and AF 6 or 2 Frazis and AF1?

Regards,

Dave

EDIT: Just noticed that Greg did mention the fighter superiority!

 

[Greg Smith]

I forgot the superub AF on the Omega, so even if the G'Quan emines all the starfuries into oblivion, the Frazis don't stand a chance!

 

[M1ndr1d3rs]

Agreed. Looking at Earth's Omega, the Centauri Primus, or the Minbari Tinashi its shortcomings become obvious.

Primary beam weapon AD/type/Arc
G'Quan: 5 AD - DD - Boresight
Omega: 6 AD - DD - Boresight
Primus: 6 AD - P - FA
Tinashi: 4 AD - P/DD - FA

The G'Quan primary weapon is inferior in one or more ways to every other ship.

Secondary weapons range/type:
G'Quan: 8" TL
Omega: 15" MB/SL
Primus: 12" DD/TL
Tinashi: 18" MB

Yeah, I wonder why they don't make it 6D.

It always drive my friend crazy to have his G'quan carved up like a roast by the Primus' precise beams. Still 30 or so pts to go, but dead in the water, toothless or other miserable states, left to be pecked to death by Kutais and Havens..

 

[AdrianH]

ACTA is a fleet game. Put a G'Quan in a balanced fleet against a similar EA fleet with an Omega. Watch the Omegas superior (in number, speed and dogfight) fighters easily deal with the G'Quan's. Watch as the Omega's superior ranged secondaries deal damage wile the EA are able to stay outside of 8" and still fire back. Watch the Omega's interceptors eat up incoming fire. See the Omega cleverly maneuver and get front and rear boresights, giving it twice the beam AD of the G'Quan. And lastly see the Omega fire its light lasers that completely ignore the hull of any Narn ship that happens to get with 15" of the Omega's flank.

Watch as that Narn fleet includes a G'Karith, whose e-mines take out the EA's fighters. Watch as the G'Quan does CBD, the Omega's front pulse cannons do maybe a point of damage, and because it's not doing CBD the Omega takes more damage from the G'Quan's 5D than the G'Quan takes from the Omega's 6D.

Now in a 1 one 1, head on fight against Omegas, the G'Quan might hold its own, until it got into secondary range. On CBD, the G'Quan might even ignore a crit or two if it was lucky. At 12" the Omega looks vastly superior. As they pass, the Omega has more weapons and defences. And once they pass one another, its all over for the G'Quan.

The G'Quan should be able to ignore 1/6 criticals, meaning it will take about as many critical effects from the Omega's 6D as the Omega will take from the G'Quan's 5D.

At 12" the Omega gets to use its front secondaries if it doesn't mind taking full damage from the G'Quan's beam. This is also a good time for the Omega to stop boresighting the G'Quan and turn away because if it doesn't, the G'Quan rams it next turn. Which means this is where the G'Quan stops doing CBD and does All Stop instead. Next turn it does All Stop & Pivot, and now it's trading 5D beam against the Omega's rear 4D. And if the G'Quan ever gets the chance, it carries 8 troops just waiting for the order to "Launch Breaching Pods and Shuttles" against the Omega's 4.

Compare the G'Quan to the Avioki or Milani, and suddenly it actually starts to look quite good. And the Avioki isn't a bad ship. But the Omega just has too much stuff that the G'Quan doesn't.

That just means the Omega is one of the best Battle level ships around and other fleets' ships will have the same problems you've listed for the G'Quan.

 

[Digger]

@ AdrianH - Why would you use a G'Karith? The Var'Nic is a much better choice for the points.

Okay so it doesn't have have the poor mans EM, but it has hull 6 and a spanking weapons suite in the front arc.

I think the Var'Nic is a great choice and given the points I would always take one, or two!

 

[Da Boss]

This is also a good time for the Omega to stop boresighting the G'Quan and turn away because if it doesn't, the G'Quan rams it next turn.

hmm really - that is a very very big if - not the automatic thing you imply?

needs a high CQ check to even attempt if its not crippled and then needs to win a opposed CQ check at even odds. If the Omega goes past the G'Quan then it will take three turns to come round to use its beam - turn 1 ALL stop, turn 2 All stop and pivot, Turn 3 same.

not sure but I would have thought 8 dice twin linked would do more than 1 hit?

I'd always rather fight a G'Quan than a Omega :wink:

 

[AdrianH]

@ AdrianH - Why would you use a G'Karith? The Var'Nic is a much better choice for the points.

Okay so it doesn't have have the poor mans EM, but it has hull 6 and a spanking weapons suite in the front arc.

You've answered your own question. Earth's fighter superiority doesn't mean much when someone is throwing out 8D of e-mine every turn, and the fact that the G'Karith's e-mines aren't multi-damage is irrelevant against fighters.

@ Da Boss: it's about 1/3 chance to make the ramming attempt, then 50/50 to succeed. But if it works, it's game over for the Omega right there. It's worth a try. And, as the Omega's player, do you want to take a total of 1/6 chance of losing the ship in one turn?

8D twin-linked will probably get 2 hits, but if the G'Quan is on CBD, it will probably ignore 1 point each of damage and crew.

Anyway, the Omega is probably one of the best Battle level ships out there. All the problems which a G'Quan will face would also annoy most other fleets' Battle ships. Try comparing the G'Quan (or its variants, especially the G'Lan) against the Lakara, Avioki, Tikrit or Raider Nova, for example. There are quite a lot of Battle level ships I'd rather face than an Omega.

 

[Anthallas]

I am not an experienced player, but I think that G'Quan has it's uses. G'Quan can easily use CBD, since it doesn't get to use its secondary weapons that often anyway, while CBD would be a real handicap for Omega.

If the enemy concentrates his fire on G'Quan, he will use a lot of firepower to take it down, while G'Quan can stay back and support the rest of the fleet. For example, a Narn fleet might be able to take a Omega down much faster than EA fleet can take G'Quan.

Also using a fleet of 5-6 G'Quans might prove to be suprisingly good strategy. The Narn fleet will outlast the EA fleet. Jumping away after outmanouvered, but before the enemy has time to exploit it.