The Great War?

[JayRaider]

So would people prefer fighting on behalf of only one faction or a more open approach were u could play any games you like?
I agree that the Dilgar should be included and timeframe shouldn't be a factor as you can choose any era of ships.
How do people feel about using the galactic map?
Do people like the idea of having a leader for each faction, who would choose ships.locations of fleets, repairs and recruitment etc.
With such a large campaign i think it would be necessary for cohesion.

 

[lastbesthope]

Not directly they didn't, they used indirect methods.

LBH

What exactly is a indirect method in this circumstance?


Nick

Well in the midst of the Minbari civil war we hear of one caste (warrior I think) turning other caste members out of a city into the wilderness near the poles of their planet. They didn't kill them, but they were indirectly responsible for their deaths by exposure.

Also the Minbari vessel that comes to B5's aid against the Trigati does not attempt to destroy the Trigati, they get a clean hit on the engines, disabling it, then the Trigati self destructs (OK, so the guy who pushed the big red Self Destruct button technically killed a few Minbari, but we don;t know they hadn;t already agreed to mass suicide)

LBH

 

[Banichi]

then one Ancient, feeling left out, plays with time and a vengeful Dilgar fleet arrive to mix it up under its patronage.

Maybe you could set it in the crusade era, with some sort of time dilation that lets fleets from the past through to play. Maybe someone grubing around on a dead world finds some sort of device that can look into the mind of the finders and reach back in time to pull forward that which they fear(eg Dilgar,shadows,vorlons,ancients). This could be some sort of subplot that explains their presents in the campain. The idear of ancient patronage is kind of cool though, and fits the charicter of these beings.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Well, some other thoughts about possible factions (I´ve come up with some basic rules for a Great War campaign a long time ago, sadly we could never play it here in my group):

I´d specify three different factions: Vorlons, Shadow, and the Army of light. Every player would have to decide on one faction at the beginning of the campaign, with the opportunity to change allegiance once (has happened quite a few times in B5 history). The fleet-layout should be something like this:

Army of light:

- League
- Minbari
- EA (Sheridan: 3rd age or early years (representing the rag-tag rebel fleet))
- Narn
- White Star fleet (replacing the ISA; White Stars and Nolo´Tars only)
- Centauri (House Jaddo + associates?)

Every member of the Army of light would be able to take up to 1 fleet point worth of White Stars as allies (Nolo´Tars reserved for the WS fleet)


Agents of Chaos:

- Shadows
- Drakh
- EA (Clark) (3rd age, + Shadow Omegas obviously)
- Black Ops (still talking about 2nd ed. here )
- Drazi/Brakiri (Vree-fluff in SFOS says that they abhore the chaos of the shadows; Abbai and pak´ma´ra are to peaceful)
- Centauri

Drazi and Brakiri pure fleets only, no cooperation/combination. Drakh as possible Allies for agents of chaos?


Agents of Order:

- Vorlons
- Minbari
- Abbai/Vree (paks too?)
- Narn (followers of G´Lan)

Maybe Agents of Order/Chaos could get the ability to "call in" a few Vorlons/Shadows in their games. Army of light would be able to to the same with the First Ones.

For example: every faction within a given campaign group would be able to use 1 First One/Shadow cruiser/Vorlon battle group in a single game within the campaign, if they decide on it before the game (putting it down secretly on a piece of paper or such). That would most likely be a matchwinner for one game.

However, following the B5 timeline, the campaign would most likely be decided in a final confrontation at the end, so it wouldn´t be unwise to keep that little extra help for the deciding battle.

OR: When coordinated centrally, each side could have a certain amount of times they would be able to call Ancient support over the course of the campaign.

I´m not sure about the Dilgar - obviously, they should be allowed to take part in the campaign, even if they were technically already extinct at that time - I´d say they could choose between Army of Light or Agents of Chaos.

Raiders would be able to choose freely. Did I forget anyone?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Why three factions? The Vorlons backed the Army of Light until Sheridan decided to get rid of them as well as the Shadows.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Why three factions? The Vorlons backed the Army of Light until Sheridan decided to get rid of them as well as the Shadows.

Actually, the Vorlons tricked what would become the Army of light into doing their work while working on their own plans.

Then, as the Great War neared it´s end, it was open conflict between shadows, Vorlons (the whole thing about blowing up planets and such), and the younger races as a third force caught in the middle.

The final battle was a fight between those three factions (whith the Army of light having some serious backup by the First Ones). That also led to some pretty cool fighting scenes in the series between the 3 fleets.

I remember the B5 CCG, in which players could support those 3 factions: the Vorlons, the Shadows an babylon5 itself (representing the younger races). The concept struck me as plausible back then, and what I saw in the series seemed to confirm it.

Besides, using just two sides would make the Shadows the "bad guys" (which they were of course, although they had an agenda which went far beyond being the universal evil force), and the Vorlons the "good guys" (which they surely weren´t, although they wanted to be seen as such).

 

[captainsmirk]

Not directly they didn't, they used indirect methods.

LBH

What exactly is a indirect method in this circumstance?


Nick

Well in the midst of the Minbari civil war we hear of one caste (warrior I think) turning other caste members out of a city into the wilderness near the poles of their planet. They didn't kill them, but they were indirectly responsible for their deaths by exposure.

Also the Minbari vessel that comes to B5's aid against the Trigati does not attempt to destroy the Trigati, they get a clean hit on the engines, disabling it, then the Trigati self destructs (OK, so the guy who pushed the big red Self Destruct button technically killed a few Minbari, but we don;t know they hadn;t already agreed to mass suicide)

LBH

True, but all the explosions going on in the Crystal City, where Delenn comments "My beautiful city in flames" would suggest actual fighting and "direct" methods of killing other Minbari...

The Trigati was before the civil war anyway, and as you say was suicide by the crew.


Nick

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Well, how about having 5 teams. You may choose which side your fleet fights for. No timeline restrictions. No switching fleets. One fleet per side. A community dedicated to the campaign. Stats for each side and for the more ambitious administrators, each person participating.

Stats would include: W/T/L, Game points (2/1/0), Ships killed (with sub-catagorys for each patrol level) and ships lost (with sub-catagorys for each patrol level). VP earned for the purposes of breaking ties and some fun stats, like a percentage for ships killed vs ships lost.

Each player would get 200RR to purchase a fleet. Each fleet must be selected from the lists provided (no ancients). Each player would get 10RR for every stratigic turn + Game points earned + 1 per ever 50 victory points earned.

Time-line specific campaigns are bound to exclude certain fleets. Also as with my gaming club, we would have a very large team for the Army of light with only one person on the forces of Chaos. If you want background you could come up with a creative protent as to why each force is made up of a mix of fleets and not single races. Each side could have an ideology and because you have a larger number of teams you would guarantee that every gaming club that would like to participate would.

Just a couple of ideas.

 

[Morakas]

I've been involved in three large campaigns and I highly recommend two weeks for battles to be fought. Trust me with only a weeks time a lot of battles won't get resolved.

 

[CZuschlag]

I'm both Drakh and Dilgar, so if you guys are permitting Vassal fights, I'm part of the forces of Darkness.....somehow.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Well, how about having 5 teams.

That would have the interesting side effect that we could play 5 different final battles within a certain time - with a unique First One in each! Just an idea though...

Maybe I really should get myself to take a look at vassal after all: somehow I´ve never found the time to learn how it works

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Why not have each race as its own team? All the EA players are one team, all the Centauri another, all the Narn a third, and so on. The League would be a team to itself, albeit a quarrelsome and fractious one. Teams would be nuetral to each other until war breaks out, I.e. a member of one team fights a member of another, and teams could form alliances as and when they liked if the "leaders" agreed.

Leaders could be elected via online poll here for each team. Maybe a group of players could share leadership with an overall supreme commander who has the final decision on big issues. A leader player for each country would work.

Thoughts? I think this would save all the arguments about which races served which team, and better reflect the politicking B5 focused on.

 

[JayRaider]

I would prefer each race to have its own team too.
Having more teams should increase the chances that you'll have an enemy to face in your own play group in real life or Vassal.
If we reduce the amount of limitations it would be flexible for people.
For example, the only limits.
Shadows/Drakh can't ally with Vorlons/Minbari/ISA/Abbai.
Narn can't directly ally with Centauri.
I'd like to see each individual League world as a team too. With 2nd Edition and the expansion of there fleet lists, they should be able to stand on there own in gaming terms.
What to do about economics?
The more systems under your control the more RR?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I still say League should be a unified team. There's a reason the League exists in the B5 universe, and isn't because the Vree like the sound of their own voices.

 

[emperorpenguin]

but it took the force of a persona like Sheridan to unify the League. Remember he referred to getting them to work together as "like stacking marbles in a corner"

The League exists as a bloc vote for minor governments, they almost never unite militarily. Even in the Dilgar War it seems that they were mostly looking out for themselves and not co-operating, making things far easier for the Dilgar.

 

[katadder]

yes they are the league, but sheriden had to stop them attacking each other before he could forge his army of light. outwardly they are combined against the major races, but they still fight amongst themselves. hell the drazi fight drazi.

 

[lastbesthope]

True, but all the explosions going on in the Crystal City, where Delenn comments "My beautiful city in flames" would suggest actual fighting and "direct" methods of killing other Minbari...

The Trigati was before the civil war anyway, and as you say was suicide by the crew.


Nick

It suggests nothing more than burning buildings, the warriors, assuming they were responsible, could easily have evacuated the temples before burning them. No Minbari needed to have been killed directly.

LBH

 

[JayRaider]

Given the further expanion of League fleets in 2E, i think it would be unfair to allow them to be played as a single enitity.
They would have to big a list of ship choices.

 

[captainsmirk]

It suggests nothing more than burning buildings, the warriors, assuming they were responsible, could easily have evacuated the temples before burning them. No Minbari needed to have been killed directly.

LBH

But in the same episode (admitedly i haven't seen it in while), in fact prompting Delenn's comment, Lennier states that there is fighting in the capital. Also onboard the Religious Caste warcruiser, Neroon is attacked by religious caste crewman. Obviously he isn't killed, but still violently attacking someone has the possibility of killing them and it didn't look much like a controlled assault...

I always looked on the "Minbari do not kill Minbari" rule as being one of those enforced by the word of Grey Council types things, like ending the E-M War. Many of the Warrior Caste didn't like it but they obeyed because the Grey Council said so. Minbari don't kill Minbari because the Grey Council says so. By the time of the Civil War the Grey Council is no more so its rules could be construed as no longer applying.


Nick

 

[tneva82]

It suggests nothing more than burning buildings, the warriors, assuming they were responsible, could easily have evacuated the temples before burning them. No Minbari needed to have been killed directly.

LBH

There were many comments about fighting going on around Minbari cities. You think Religious caste just went out of temple when warriors asked and allowed it to be burned?

Fighting means invariably killing.

The minbari do not kill minbari was imposed by rule of Grey Council. Without it to lead them all the problems surfaced. There's no reason to believe they did not kill each other there. It's not like they are literally incapable of it...