The Fair Use Policy

captainjack23 said:
Well, that is the nub of the issue, isn't it ? It doesn't limit creativity, it just limits your ability to make money off of someone else's IP and mongooses licence. And frankly, allowing anyone to do that in any part of an IP is pretty damn generous..and fairly risky, too from what I understand about IP - its a lot harder to enforce licencing with a partial exception.

Sure, but it seems pointless to me. Given the the choice of either doing anything we want anywhere with Charted Space so long as it's free, or be able to charge for anything done in one specific sector that is way off the beaten track and has a limited set of backgrounds and assumptions that you can use, I'll happily take the "do anything we want with Charted Space for free" option - or even a separate "approach Mongoose and see if they're interested in publishing something set elsewhere in the OTU" option. Either gives me more creative freedom than one specific sector in Charted Space only.


So keep in mind that this kind of discussion, presented as commentary despite the lack of actual details is really just poisoning the well.

It's commentary and nothing else. I've made it very clear what is or isn't conjecture here.
 
Well, I'm bored, so so much for waiting ... :P

msprange said:
Infojunky said:
Matt is the location of the Foreven sector fixed?
For the OTU it is. For you. . . well, that is pretty much up to you :)
To keep confusion to a minimum, I speak only of the Fan Policy here, not the OTU License (might be an idea to start a new thread on that one):

Would it be an idea to create a completely separate "blank sector" concept which is not in a particular location and contains no particular worlds or polities? The only purpose would be to let fans disseminate their game material using OTU terms and references, but clearly and obviously not part of the OTU in any way. You would just give it a generic name, like "Far Sector", and it's clearly labelled as something which does not exist in the OTU, even though it uses things like the Third Imperium and Zhodani. With an actual OTU sector name, you need another level of disclaimers before you make clear that what follows is just fan stuff.

It's a pity the name "Gateway" is already assigned to an actual OTU sector, because "gateway article" used to be a common term for non-official (or non-official setting) articles in RPG magazines.
 
in one specific sector that is way off the beaten track and has a limited set of backgrounds and assumptions that you can use,

This, IMO, is the key difference between your opinion and my opinion. You feel that this has to be in the OTU as has been known for 30 years. I see this as a way of creating my own universe while having some of the standard Traveller trappings. If (and this is a REALLY, REALLY big if, considering I have not seen the license and then decide if that is where I want to go, and then see if a publisher is interested) I do something with this, its not going to have anything to do with SM or anything else done in the past 30 years. Its going to be brand new.
 
The existing Foreven sector is partly occupied by the Zhodani Consulate. It has the Marches to trailing, The Beyond (and Aslan) to rimward, something unpronouncable to coreward, and Far Frontiers to spinward. Anything that doesn't have these features isn't the Foreven sector - it can't be, because it's something else.

It's the specificity of that particular sector that I'm having problems with. If it turns out that you can change anything and everything about it, then why even call it Foreven in the first place?
 
Once again, speaking purely in Fan Policy terms:
EDG said:
It's the specificity of that particular sector that I'm having problems with. If it turns out that you can change anything and everything about it, then why even call it Foreven in the first place?
That's my question. If (speculating as one does) you can do anything at all in this "floating sector", maybe it would be better to give it a new and non-OTU name.

Not "Floating Sector", though. :shock:
 
dmccoy1693 said:
Dude, You do realize that this is like Ed Greenwood and Wizards saying that anyone can publish whatever they want for Kara-Tur and someone complaining that they still can't do anything with the Dalelands? (that's forgotten realms setting for those not in the know)

Bingo. That is an extremely good analogy.
 
EDG said:
The potential problem I'm talking about that this may result in lots of different alternate Forevens being published that aren't consistent with eachother - so how would that fact be made clear on the products so that people aren't confused by the inconsistent Forevens?

The same way that D20 companies differentiated from each other - quality and their own internal consistency.

Put another way, assume two people each publish (whether paper or PDF) their own 'Spinward Marches' type sector guide for Foreven. One is 6 pages long and has no art. The other is 160 pages, is attractive and well thought out - the guys on this forum will quickly identify which is the better bet and there will be a move to gravitate towards it, producing their own material that rests on top of it. The other withers and dies.
 
EDG said:
I don't know how much of a carte blanche we're going to get here - do we have to keep the Zhos there? Or the Pocket Empires? (we know those are there from the big map of Charted Space that's been there since CT).

You'll be able to do pretty much whatever you like - change governments, destroy planets. . . However, I suspect the further you move away from what people expect, the less popular it will be.

EDG said:
If we don't and can change anything we like, then why not just say "you have an area equal to one full, blank sector in the Charted Space setting in which you can do anything you like, but it's not going to be part of the OTU" instead of naming a specific sector that we have to use?

Because people can use whatever version of Foreven they deem best, and use it seamlessly with our official material, literally crossing the sector boundaries in their games.
 
dmccoy1693 said:
But, yes it is possible to have two different and highly incompatable versions of the Forevens sector. That's where branding comes into play. The way one publisher brands their products from another. The same way you knew that CT and T20 were different and had incompatable crunch is how publisher a and publisher b's material aren't compatable.

Bingo. Again, you have it surrounded, dude :)
 
msprange said:
You'll be able to do pretty much whatever you like - change governments, destroy planets. . . However, I suspect the further you move away from what people expect, the less popular it will be.

So if people expect Foreven to be full of zhodani and aslan (as they probably would given what it's like on the OTU maps), then a Foreven dominated by vargr and hivers probably won't be popular. And so people won't bother writing it. It sounds like it'll self-select to Forevens that are closest to the OTU.


Because people can use whatever version of Foreven they deem best, and use it seamlessly with our official material, literally crossing the sector boundaries in their games.

Well it'd only be "seamless" if they produced Forevens that were close to the one in the OTU, wouldn't it? You can't really have a half-wrecked war-torn Foreven sector right next to the official Marches sector and say it's "seamless" with your official material. Or a Foreven with an alien plague sweeping through it next to the blissfully ignorant Marches. Not unless you had to contrive lots of ways to miraculously isolate the sectors, anyway.
 
EDG said:
So if people expect Foreven to be full of zhodani and aslan (as they probably would given what it's like on the OTU maps), then a Foreven dominated by vargr and hivers probably won't be popular. And so people won't bother writing it. It sounds like it'll self-select to Forevens that are closest to the OTU.

On a purely commercial level, probably.

EDG said:
Well it'd only be "seamless" if they produced Forevens that were close to the one in the OTU, wouldn't it? You can't really have a half-wrecked war-torn Foreven sector right next to the official Marches sector and say it's "seamless" with your official material. Or a Foreven with an alien plague sweeping through it next to the blissfully ignorant Marches. Not unless you had to contrive lots of ways to miraculously isolate the sectors, anyway.

It is not our place to tell people what they can and cannot do in their own games. All we are doing is providing a framework that allows people to use OTU references, and to do so in a tidy and recognisable manner. Everything else is up to them.
 
msprange said:
On a purely commercial level, probably.

Isn't that the point here though? On the one hand you seem to be saying that you're letting people use the OTU in commercial product, but on the other you're saying that you're only letting them use a very limited part of it that in practical terms still has to look like the OTU anyway if it's to be successful.


It is not our place to tell people what they can and cannot do in their own games. All we are doing is providing a framework that allows people to use OTU references, and to do so in a tidy and recognisable manner. Everything else is up to them.

So why not do that then?

Why not say something like "you we are granting you permission to create a completely blank sector of space that you can develop in your own way using the following Product Identity from the Charted Space IP [at which point you'd provide a separate list]. Your product however will not in any way actually be considered part of the OFFICIAL Traveller Universe (and it must not have the same name as any sector in the Official Traveller Universe), and it will be clearly marked as an Alternate Setting."

That way you lose the arbitrary restriction of having it set in Foreven or anywhere else, while still allowing people to use the major concepts from the OTU to make a brand new original sector's worth of material.


Still, I guess that you've made up your mind, and if that's the way you've gone then I guess that the Open Sector side of things isn't going to be of much interest to me. But if other people get something out of it then good for them. To be honest I am a lot more interested in what the Fair Use clause has to say.
 
Hi guys,

Just to let you know, all the bits and pieces for the new Developer's Pack (which includes the Fair Use Policy, Traveller Logo Licence, and the Foreven Free Sector Logo Licence) have been drawn together. We just need to PDF a few things up and proof everything, and then we'll be ready for launch!

All going well, should be before the end of the coming week!
 
Well obviously we''ll have to wait until we can draw conclusions, but since we're having this discussion, I have a few queries as to how this might work in practice.

While it seems clear that the 'Foreven Clause' will allow us to produce subsectors and worlds and adventures that include things like conflicts between the 3I and Zhodani in Foreven, and the operations of the IISS there, what about references to more tangential aspects of the OTU?

For instance, let's say I produced a book about sensors, with more elaborate mechanical nitty-gritty and descriptions of all forms of sci-fi sensors, from tricorders to Culture type field technology. Let's say I also include some discussion about some OTU specific stuff, like densimeters and NAS, with reference to how the Imperial Navy or Zhodani commandos might use them. Now under the terms of the general OGL (a commercial product), I cannot mention the OTU at all. Under the FUP (a non-commercial product), I can't make reference to MGT rules. So my product is impermissable under those terms.

My question is: if I prefixed my discussion with, "In their explorations of the Foreven Sector, the Zhodani and the Imperium use the following sensor systems in very specific ways...", would that invoke the 'Foreven Clause' and become allowed either commercially or non-commercially?

I could do this a different way. I could produce an extended adventure set in Foreven, with a detailed appendix introducing new rules about sensor equipment, essentially bundling my above product with a Foreven adventure. It seems right now that this would be permissible.

Note, none of my examples are intended as bad faith interpretations of the upcoming policies, but honest conundrums when faced with compliance.

A second query. If I, trading under a company name, commercially produce a non-OTU OGL product, would I then be able to refer to that product in a free OTU product made under the FUP. Would I be even able to mention one in the other in a list of the products I might have available under my company?

My questions may be premature, given that the final pdfs are imminent, but I might not have the time to consider my queries as fully as I can today due to real life being too interesting right now, in the Chinese proverb kind of way. :)
 
Klaus, my honest recommendation is to wait. First off, we know that the Foreven Free Sector Logo License is a different license then the Traveller Logo License and we have no clue how the two will work together, if at all. I can conceive of atleast 3 different ways it could work and I'm not a lawyer. I'm sure a lawyer could think of atleast a dozen more ways it could work.

Speculating at this point is going to be fruitless and annoys people. I saw plenty of it during the run up to 4E. I also saw how the back and forth turned alot of people off to 4E. Mongoose Matt's record on "soon" has been much better then alot of other company's definition of soon *couth*Wizards*cough*. So lets just wait this out.
 
Well, I'm waiting. I hope Matt gets this up earlier in the week rather than later though. Then I'll go through it with a fine toothcomb.
 
Klaus Kipling said:
My question is: if I prefixed my discussion with, "In their explorations of the Foreven Sector, the Zhodani and the Imperium use the following sensor systems in very specific ways...", would that invoke the 'Foreven Clause' and become allowed either commercially or non-commercially?

That sounds fair, yes.

Klaus Kipling said:
A second query. If I, trading under a company name, commercially produce a non-OTU OGL product, would I then be able to refer to that product in a free OTU product made under the FUP. Would I be even able to mention one in the other in a list of the products I might have available under my company?

There is currently nothing in the draft that would stop you doing this.
 
msprange said:
There is currently nothing in the draft that would stop you doing this.

Matt, I know the draft is still yet to be finalized - but one issue does also seem important to me at least (for what that's worth ;) ); as a preserve, Foreven is great for the spinwards style OTU development....but if it's the same as the one on the map -ie has a nailed down position, any of the rim/trailingword style development will have to stretch pretty badly to remain OTU (lost K'kree colonies ? Hmmm. ); has there been some consideration of " the other side" for fan/3rdparty development ?

Obviously, I haven't seen the draft, so this may be moot - but if it isn't adressed, is there any possibiily of it being looked at as a possibility ?

Anyway, thanks loads for what we already know about -its been very exciting times in the traveller universe since you guys got on board -and moreso now...(exciting in a good way, I mean...as well as an affect enhancing way... :mrgreen: )
 
msprange said:
EDG said:
Well it'd only be "seamless" if they produced Forevens that were close to the one in the OTU, wouldn't it? You can't really have a half-wrecked war-torn Foreven sector right next to the official Marches sector and say it's "seamless" with your official material. Or a Foreven with an alien plague sweeping through it next to the blissfully ignorant Marches. Not unless you had to contrive lots of ways to miraculously isolate the sectors, anyway.

It is not our place to tell people what they can and cannot do in their own games. All we are doing is providing a framework that allows people to use OTU references, and to do so in a tidy and recognisable manner. Everything else is up to them.


Two Words:

SPACE
HAMSTERS

In the OTU. 4ever in the 4even.
The mind boggles. :lol:
 
Jeff Hopper said:
Two Words:

SPACE
HAMSTERS

In the OTU. 4ever in the 4even.
The mind boggles. :lol:

Annoy me enough and I swear to god I'll write that up, I will. Or amuse me enough...or boggle me enough..... whichever. .....Sentient puddles and all......


4even RuLZ OK !
 
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